My current PCC is a .40 S2K

 

I've got a couple of Gen 2 Sub 2K's in 9mm. They use Glock 17 mags and shoot exceptionally well. Since they fold up small enough to go in a racquetball bag it provides a lot of options. For a HD tool I would prefer my PCC over one of my AR's normally. That can change and is situational, but generally speaking I prefer the PCC.



I've had a HP 4095TS in 40 S&W that I liked quite well but have been curious how it would be in a Sub 2K. How do you like yours?

 

For most things my 16" is preferable. I only use my SBR for indoor matches these days.

 

My carry PCC is a ATI AR Pistol in 9mm with a brace. I carry it for the same reason ronin.45 mentioned. Inside a vehicle or structure, it is preferred. At the range with a RDS, 85 yards head shots are pretty easy. Plus it is cooler looking than a rifle.

 

ATF looking to restrict braces. Might be safer to go 16" until it gets resolved.

https://gaetz.house.gov/media/hottakespress/gaetz-calls-atf-cease-plans-restricting-arm-brace-usage

 

Yeah, if that might be happening under Trump it would definitely happen under Biden. Unfortunately the only way it could be truly resolved would be a law repealing the ban on SBRs and I don't see that happening. My SBR is going to have a 16 inch barrel and regular stock.

The idea that a 9mm SBR with a 33 magazine is so dangerous it must be banned but a Glock19 with that same magazine is OK is silly. The only reason SBRs are illegal is back in the 1930s when the NFA act was passed into law the original bill would have made all handguns class three weapons too. That got dropped before the bill became law but the SBR language remained.

But SBRs are NFA items. And for 99% of the people with braced pistols the brace is a way to own a SBR without the paperwork. I know lots of people with braced pistols and they all use them as SBRs with the brace against their shoulder. I am not complaining, I always figured if the left had the "medicinal" marijuana loophole we could have the brace loophole. But loopholes can be closed at anytime with no recourse. I am not going to be clearing buildings with mine so the longer barrel isn't much of a drawback

Right now the top contender is a S2K if I can get past it being made by Keltec. It will be used as a range gun so reliability is not as important as it would be if I was going to use it for home defense. It can take M&P magazines which I already have, the folding feature looks cool and it is inexpensive.

 

I prefer the rifle over the pistol/brace setup. Rifle-wise, I have a Sub-2000 and a Beretta CX4 Storm. Both are 9’s.

The Keltec has been 100% reliable and the fold-in-half feature is useful for some applications, but the ergonomics suck IMO. When I mount the gun and get a sight picture, I feel like I’m all contorted. A red dot sight would cure that, but then you no longer have the fold up feature. (There are a couple of companies (Red Lion and Midwest Industries, IIRC) that make options to mount an optic and retain the fold up feature of the gun, but friends have those and they don’t retain the zero on the optic.) Also, I’m a lefty and get quite a bit of crap in my face when shooting the Sub-2000. Not sure how well the Keltec would hold up to high volume shooting, either.

The Beretta carbine is also 100% reliable and extremely accurate. Takedown for cleaning is very easy. Trigger pull is pretty heavy, but for what I use it for (IDPA, plate racks) that’s not a problem. There’s a company called Sierra Papa that makes an aftermarket hammer, trigger and hammer spring to get a better pull, but I have not felt the need. Based on my experience, this gun will hold up to high volume shooting.

I’ve been looking seriously at the Ruger PC carbine and the Just Right carbine. When the market is closer to normal, I plan to buy one of these for IDPA. (Don’t really need one with the Beretta; just want one.)

PCCs are a blast to shoot. Hopefully you reload, ‘cause you can really burn through ammo with them.

 

For my personal PCC, I went with a 16" CZ Scorpion carbine instead of one of the pistols with an arm brace. My reasoning was that I wanted a real butt stock. With a Trijicon MRO installed, it's probably the most "fun" rifle I've had in a while. The CZ magazines are easy to load, readily available and reasonably priced. The carbine has also proven to be 100% reliable for me. Being descended from a submachine gun, I'm also confident it'll hold up to high-volume shooting use.

I've tried a KelTec Sub2k, which is a workable gun, but I find getting behind the sights to be extremely awkward. It also leaves me with doubts as to how durable it will be for high-volume use.

I've also tried a Ruger PC Carbine, and it's quite an improvement over the KelTec. Think 10/22 Major. It's fairly smooth, has a decent trigger out of the box and is well balanced. Oh, it's also a takedown. However I don't like the barrel-mounted ghost ring sight setup, plus if you mount an optic to the receiver, you'll have zero-shift whenever the barrel is removed and reinstalled.

Then there is the question of whether or not to get one with Glock-magazine compatibility or if you're OK with proprietary magazines. While I understand the appeal of Glock magazines, I'm personally comfortable with proprietary magazines, within reason.

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I have both. I use the carbine for matches and the pistol for carry. I will also toss the pistol on the gun rack in the UTV.
Both sport a linear comp by KAW Valley.
We did have a dude show up with a pistol AR at the last PCC match, we did allow people to compete with them, he was not running a linear comp and the muzzle blast was pretty obnoxious in the covered shooting bays.

You need both.:dancing:

 

I love my Scorpion Micro, the brace shoulders just like a stock and I can shoot it more comfortably than my gen2 Sub2k.

 

9mm doesn't gain much at all ballistically from a longer barrel. I went with a pistol length CZ Scorpion as it's more maneuverable. The difference between a brace and a stock being "comfortable" is high subjective. I don't find a KAK shockwave uncomfortable in the least for 9mm or 5.5.6.

 

Thats a great picture

 

By bedside or in SUV.

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Omega MP5 SBR.

:thumbsup:

 

Omega MP5 SBR.

:thumbsup:

I added an option in the poll for those of you that own a real SBR with all the associated paperwork.

 

I have a real SBR PCC and still use my 16" for 75%+ of my PCC shooting. It's a very convenient length really. It swings smoother for steel challenge, shoots flatter for 2Gun, and gives you much more leeway in hand/barricade placement on the forend. The only thing it's not as good at is being suppressed because it gets overly long.

 

9mm doesn't gain much at all ballistically from a longer barrel.

A lot depends on barrel length and bullet weight. In a 16 inch barrel a 115 could gain 25% in velocity whereas a 147 might not gain any increase or even lose a bit. The trick is using a bullet design that will benefit from any significant increase. A 115 gaining 300 FPS, say going from 1100 FPS to 1400 FPS sounds good but it depends on if the bullet in question will still perform at that velocity threshold.

A discussion and videos on PCC ammo selection can be found here: http://sepboard.us/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=15

 

The gain isn't drastic enough to go from a 7" barrel in my Scorpion to a 16" using 124 gr. At 1316 FPS up to 1379 FPS.

Across the board the gain is minimal for 9mm.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html



You aren't going to get a 300 FPS gain in 115gr even going from a 3" barrel to an 18" barrel.

 

If they ban braces, I will put the foam pad back on the tube. It’s pretty easy to shoot well by tucking the tube against your cheek. I suppose someday I might SBR it, even if they don’t ban braces. I got the inexpensive brace (shockwave) so the cost isn’t really a factor.

I’d prefer a shorter and lighter pistol configuration with no brace (if necessary) over a rifle. As mentioned, 9mm doesn’t really gain much after 8-10 inches so the rest is just extra weight way out front, making it clunkier. I shot mine with just the tube for over a year before adding a brace, and it’s still faster and more accurate than a handgun for just about everyone who tried it when shooting past 7-10 yards. Ringing a 6” plate at 25 yards is easy for novices with the unbraced 9mm pistol AR, while hitting that same plate with a handgun at 10 yards is a low percentage shot for that same novice. That has been my experience, anyway.

 

Ya know it all comes down to what you plan to use your 9mm for. If it's pure self Defense, packing it around in your car, carrying case, whatever. Or do you plan to shoot it as a rifle. I've seen the rifles (like the Sub 2000 or PCC) do out to 300+ yards accurately. Verses the quick SD concealed carry.
I like the rifle, even with a little Red Dot it will work at distance.

 

Just FYI, this would be a game changer.

https://gaetz.house.gov/media/hottakespress/gaetz-calls-atf-cease-plans-restricting-arm-brace-usage

 

Just FYI, this would be a game changer.
https://gaetz.house.gov/media/hottakespress/gaetz-calls-atf-cease-plans-restricting-arm-brace-usage
https://gaetz.house.gov/media/hottakespress/gaetz-calls-atf-cease-plans-restricting-arm-brace-usage

That man is a keeper

 

If it wasn't for the possibility of Biden winning in November and ordering the ATF to do to braces what they already did to bump stocks

Might happen before Biden becomes president. Who banned bump stocks? Oh yeah, Trump did.

If Biden wins, banning braces will be the least of our worries. We'll be lucky if that's all that happens.

 

Might happen before Biden becomes president.

Who banned bump stocks? Oh yeah, Trump did.

I don't believe there's any legislation one way of the other in regards to bumpstocks. The ATF needs to realize that they are the enforcement branch, not the legislative branch.

 

I've got a couple of Gen 2 Sub 2K's in 9mm. They use Glock 17 mags and shoot exceptionally well. Since they fold up small enough to go in a racquetball bag it provides a lot of options. For a HD tool I would prefer my PCC over one of my AR's normally. That can change and is situational, but generally speaking I prefer the PCC.



I've had a HP 4095TS in 40 S&W that I liked quite well but have been curious how it would be in a Sub 2K. How do you like yours?

I have both calibers that take g17 22 mags. They are both very good. It's nice to have a backpack rifle that takes the same mags as the pistol you are carrying. The recoil is not noticeably more than the 9. Otherwise they are much the same.

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If I lived in a free state I would go with something in the 4-8 inch barrel length with hedging towards 6-8. You gain velocity without the worries of too much velocity or reduced velocity. Short enough to conceal with a folding brace or should they ban those just using a stock.

Way back in the day we had MP5s that you could push out with the sling and be almost as accurate with the stock. And that was with irons. With a red dot it would be even easier. Its not going to be a 100+ yard weapon without a brace or stock but within extended pistol range, say 15-50 it is really going to be an improvement over a standard pistol.

It would be a good weapon for times where you want to throw one into a standard backpack in case of serious unrest. A 16incher will get you more performance but at added cost of size.

 

My favorite braced pistol’s are my MPX’s. They’re just very smooth shooting with hardly any recoil coupled with a red dot makes them really easy to hit your targets.

Second choice would be my MP5’s

 

Some of you guys havw pretty cool toys

 

Love my CX4 Storm, and it will still be legal if they ban braces.

Or you could spend 2.5x as much and get a new Kriss Vector carbine.

Or there’s the longer and heavier Ruger.

If you’re going to SBR something (which I wouldn’t recommend right now) I’d get the PSA AK-V or their forthcoming MP-5.

 

While looking at different PCCs I ran across a video at

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxcFK3rcqU8&
. They tested Speer Gold Dot and Federal HST with both 124 and 147 grain bullets and in both regular and +p pressure levels. Test guns were conventional pistols with 3.5 and 4.7 inch barrels and PCCs with 12.5 and 16 inch barrels.

The 124 grain Gold Dots showed about 300 more fps going from the shortest to longest barrel and the heavy bullets showed little difference. The Gold Dots started coming apart due to the extra velocity. Like you said, sometimes faster isn't better. It looks like the best choice for PCC defense ammo is the heavy stuff. You lose the extra energy more velocity would give you but gain a bullet designed to perform well at the velocity it will achieve in both a pistol or PCC

Exactly. I have that video embedded in the link I provided in an earlier post along with some others.

That link again (which has the charts and still photos along with several videos)

http://sepboard.us/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=15


The 124+P GD for example going from a 3.5 inch pistol to a 16 inch PCC yields a 281 fps gain in velocity. That is right around a 25% increase in velocity which is substantial. The trick, as we've mention isn't just the velocity increase but having a bullet that can handle that increase and still perform. Using the 124+P GD again, it yields 15 inches of penetration and expansion to .70. I disagree with LG's assessment that it's 'beyond controlled expansion'. The +P held together and while it didn't have the 'classic' flower petal still expanded well to .70. And again, the important factors are the penetration and that it held together. This is what I generally have my Sub2K loaded with since it's my old off-duty round.

Conversely, the standard pressure GD is an example of a round that I would not use. Although it had a gain of 279 fps in this test, it only penetrated to 10 inches. Outstanding expansion put at the expense of penetration.

While there wasn't a huge increase from 12.5 inches of barrel to 16 inches, there was an increase in the 115 and 124 weights. The 147 though, as you mentioned, may very well be a good round in a shorter barreled PCC as you get slight gains but nothing crazy. In a 16 inch barrel you'll likely get comparable performance to a pistol although you'd get the expected increase in sight radius and controllability of the platform

So care needs to be taken with ammo selection.

 

Many states don't allow a loaded rifle in vehicles but will obviously allow "pistols", so that may be a deciding factor for many people.

 

That's why I like AR pistols

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