There is no good reason for them to be bullied on reloading forums either.

It would NEVER be my intent to bully anyone about anything. I hope the OP didn't take it that way and I am sorry that you did. My apologies!

There is no reason to buy the Lee 4 die set that includes the FCD when it is possible to buy the 3 die set without and then simply buy the taper crimp die separately. As the OP discovered...

In the case of the Kempf kit, a set of 4 dies is included. Just add the taper crimp die. Experiment! Get a case gauge and see how the rounds come out.

Everybody gets to make their own choices. I would always suggest using a separate taper crimp die for pistol reloading.

Richard

 

I hope the OP didn't take it that way.....

There is no reason to buy the Lee 4 die set that includes the FCD when it is possible to buy the 3 die set without and then simply buy the taper crimp die separately. As the OP discovered...

Richard

Didn't take it that way. It has been a civil discussion and have seen other Lee threads that have gone sideways.


I did discover it would be cheaper to buy the 4-die set with FCD than buy the 3-die and separate taper crimp. :dunno:

 

Didn't take it that way. It has been a civil discussion and have seen other Lee threads that have gone sideways.


I did discover it would be cheaper to buy the 4-die set with FCD than buy the 3-die and separate taper crimp. :dunno:

Better cost more. :whistling:

Back to your original question. Here is the interesting thing to ask yourself and just a restatement of your original question with a twist.

If the Load Master is the same basic price as the Lee Classic Turret and obviously they are both made by the same company, why did Lee even make the Lee Classic Turret and why in the world would so many people buy the LCT. I mean from a features and speed point of view the LM is the better press. But all it takes is a brief look around the forums and you will see the LCT is very popular and the LM is not nearly as loved. A ton of people over on the Cast Boolits forum use the LCT and you have a much smaller group using the LM. It's the same around here. Having owned both I still have (and use regularly) my LCT but my LM is long gone. The answer is not "LM is too complicated for conversions" or anything like that. LM is actually a pretty easy press to setup and use.

YMMV blah blah, etc :wavey:

 

Didn't take it that way. It has been a civil discussion and have seen other Lee threads that have gone sideways.


I did discover it would be cheaper to buy the 4-die set with FCD than buy the 3-die and separate taper crimp. :dunno:

There are a few fellows on this forum who have been doing this thing for a while. One guy (and perhaps others) has been reloading for 50 years. We have strongly held opinions because, by golly, that's the way it has always been!

Earlier in the thread, we talked about the Kempf LCT kit. It will come with a 4 die set which very probably includes the FCD since that's the way Lee makes 4 die sets. It would be my recommendation to add a taper crimp die for something like $14 and put the FCD on the shelf.

In my view, this is one of the most mellow forums around. There's a lot of experience to tap and everyone goes out of their way to help newcomers get started in reloading. Sure, we're going to promote doing it the way we do it. That's only natural. But the recommendations are based on a lot of experience. And there are always conflicting views!

The stickies at the top of the forum can be very helpful when starting out.

Richard

 

I did discover it would be cheaper to buy the 4-die set with FCD than buy the 3-die and separate taper crimp. :dunno:

We didn't spend enough time on the reasons for a separate taper crimp die.

There are a couple of things going on when you try to seat and crimp with the same die. First, you are trying to get the bullet to the proper depth. That's obvious... Second, you are trying to close up the case mouth at the same time. Preferably without digging into the bullet as it moves toward the final depth. Setting the die to do two things at one time is just a lot harder than setting two dies to do one thing each.

It is also easier to make separate adjustments to depth and crimp when changing bullet styles.

Besides, that's why the toolhead has so many openings. Resize, powder, seat, crimp - 4 operations, 4 openings.

Richard

 

I think his point is that it's cheaper by a couple bucks to buy the Deluxe 4 die set (that always comes with the FCD) then to buy the deluxe 3 die set and add the taper crimp die. The FCD cost more then the regular crimp die so it's almost like the 4 die set is the "better deal" from a cost point of view. But you end up having a FCD as your only separate crimp die and to me I prefer not to run everything through a post sizing die. I would rather case gauge my match ammo and know that all my match ammo is made perfectly from the start and not "fixed" by a post sizing die. The fixed ammo may fit the gauge but it's not going to be nearly as accurate. If you have 1 round that is fixed in a match it could cost you a no shoot. That alone is worth spending 15 mins case gauging my match ammo. Even if I was just drilling paper. I still want to know that my group is opening up because of me and not because of some of my ammo that was not perfect being fixed by the post sizing die. I know that my reject rate is about 1-100 to 1-300. And I had to do some fine tuning to get it that good. I have had some seating dies that gave me a 20% failure rate. If I was post sizing everything I would never have known. So to me it makes a lot more sense to start with a regular crimp die and not the fcd that is going to force you to do post sizing.

 

I think his point is that it's cheaper by a couple bucks to buy the Deluxe 4 die set (that always comes with the FCD) then to buy the deluxe 3 die set and add the taper crimp die.

Worst case: Add $13 to get the taper crimp die. In the scheme of things, $13 is totally insignificant.

When you think of all the little bits and pieces that are either required or extremely useful, the cost starts to add up. The LCT kit is just the beginning! $13 won't change that!

Richard

 

Didn't take it that way. It has been a civil discussion and have seen other Lee threads that have gone sideways.


I did discover it would be cheaper to buy the 4-die set with FCD than buy the 3-die and separate taper crimp. :dunno:

Even if you are on a very tight budget, cost of equip shouldn't be the main reason you buy something. You will save so much $$ on your ammo over time it just becomes moot. Consider a top of the line progressive setup; 650 w/ case feeder, about $1100. OVer 20yrs of reloading, that is $4.60 per month! If you can not afford $4.60 a month, how can you afford to even shoot? It's perspective. Good gear last forever & saves you time reloading. $$ I can make, time I can not.:dunno:

 

Even if you are on a very tight budget, cost of equip shouldn't be the main reason you buy something. You will save so much $$ on your ammo over time it just becomes moot. Consider a top of the line progressive setup; 650 w/ case feeder, about $1100. OVer 20yrs of reloading, that is $4.60 per month! If you can not afford $4.60 a month, how can you afford to even shoot? It's perspective. Good gear last forever & saves you time reloading. $$ I can make, time I can not.:dunno:

if dillion offered a $4.60 per month for 20 year payment plan when I bought my pro1000 I would have done it. The issue some have is the $1100 up front. I could do it now, but when I started this that was two months rent and a couple weeks of groceries.

I have had no issues that I know of with the FCD. I am still looking for my taper crimp die and plan on changing it (at some point I'll just buy another). I don't need the post sizing as I fully size it on station one, and have another sizing die on two to line up for priming. I use it now because I have it. Maybe my groups will get better with the taper crimp, right now they are more than sufficient for USPSA/IDPA. I still use the factory barrel in the glock, so even if I was a little over sized I am sure I would never have a feeding issue.

 

^^^You & UDon are the few that can get the Lee to work & are happy with it. More power to you. I just point out how silly it is to cheap out on something that really cost you so little over time.

 

^^^You & UDon are the few that can get the Lee to work & are happy with it. More power to you. I just point out how silly it is to cheap out on something that really cost you so little over time.

I am not a rocket surgeon, but I did stay at a holiday inn once. I put little to no effort setting mine up. I resisted the typical male tendency to open the box and dive in and instead I did read the directions and the 13 tips before I did anything. Perhaps it was easy as I did have some experience with the pro1000, or for once in my life I was lucky. I do believe it is better to be lucky than good.

I agree that it is better to buy quality if you can. My point was when I started there was no way I could afford $1100 and there are still some out there who can't. Just like my race car back then was a collection of junk yard parts. Now it is ridiculous the money I spend on it, and I always buy the best parts. However, on both of my hobbies if I hadn't had a cheap option I probably wouldn't be on this board today (or the car forums). I would bet that goes for many folks; and thus Lee has a market. Unlike with the car for shooting, I have not moved onto higher quality parts. Shooting is my second hobby, and I do it to save money.

 

It took me about 30 minutes to change my Dillon 550 from .38 special to .357 last night. Of course I use the same dies for both, so I don't have a separate tool head, but had to fiddle with the powder measure and the seating die, decapping die was no big deal. Also had to adjust the belling process that is built into the powder measure.
No matter what, changeover on a progressive is always going to be harder then a simpler single or turret press.


And as a confession, I purchased (Mrs. N is giving it to me for Christmas) a Load master. I just have to see for myself what all the fuss is about. I plan to keep it set up to load 9mm. My foray into the evil world of the L/M will begin some time in the new year, Good Lord willing.

 

Swell...

One of these days I should buy an FCD and see what it does to my nominally correct reloads. One of those 'scientific' tests...

I don't have a whole lot of experience with .40 S&W but I have loaded a bunch of 9mm and whole lot of .45 ACP. The problem I have with the FCD is that I don't have a problem.

There's nothing magic about my process. For the most part, I use Dillon dies although I did try a Lee sizing die for 9mm. I don't think it is necessary. If there was a problem with Dillon dies, it would have been fixed a long time ago.

Of course, I take the position that Dillon is the first, last and only word in reloading. And Redding...

Richard

The FCD shouldn't do anything to your correct reloads. They never do anything to my reloads except crimp. Yes crimp. I think a lot of people get caught up in the post sizing and think that's all the FCD does. The post sizing ring does make a great case gauge. It did catch my three rounds that were out of spec over the last seven years. I load jacketed and lead in three calibers and have only had three rounds in seven years get post sized. I did a test to prove to myself that my FCD's were doing what they were supposed to. I took a handful of my LSWC's and they all measured .452. I took a handful of mixed brass. sized the brass and seated the bullets with no powder or primers. I backed out the crimp stem in the FCD to eliminate it from the test. I ran all of the rounds into and out of the FCD. I pulled all of the bullets and they all still measured .452.

As to what the factory does? Who knows?

I saw a special on TV a few years ago on how factory ammo is made. It was filmed at one of the large manufactures. They explained the use of the finishing die and it is the same as the post sizing ring the FCD.

 

Even if you are on a very tight budget, cost of equip shouldn't be the main reason you buy something. You will save so much $$ on your ammo over time it just becomes moot. Consider a top of the line progressive setup; 650 w/ case feeder, about $1100. OVer 20yrs of reloading, that is $4.60 per month! If you can not afford $4.60 a month, how can you afford to even shoot? It's perspective. Good gear last forever & saves you time reloading. $$ I can make, time I can not.:dunno:

The only problem is you can't pay Dillon $4.60 a month, they want all the money up front.

 

I like my LCT.

 

Better to leave it alone - sorry for the double post.

 

Never mind - decided against.

 

The FCD shouldn't do anything to your correct reloads. They never do anything to my reloads except crimp. Yes crimp. I think a lot of people get caught up in the post sizing and think that's all the FCD does. The post sizing ring does make a great case gauge. It did catch my three rounds that were out of spec over the last seven years. I load jacketed and lead in three calibers and have only had three rounds in seven years get post sized. I did a test to prove to myself that my FCD's were doing what they were supposed to. I took a handful of my LSWC's and they all measured .452. I took a handful of mixed brass. sized the brass and seated the bullets with no powder or primers. I backed out the crimp stem in the FCD to eliminate it from the test. I ran all of the rounds into and out of the FCD. I pulled all of the bullets and they all still measured .452.

Lee's tolerance on the FCD carbide rings must be pretty liberal or a lot of rejects get by. Some have FCDs that size down some don't. Then add the variances of case wall diameters.

I rather take the safe approach and just remove the unneeded carbide ring. Scrap price for carbide is rather good these days.

 

There are a few fellows on this forum who have been doing this thing for a while. One guy (and perhaps others) has been reloading for 50 years. We have strongly held opinions because, by golly, that's the way it has always been!
Richard

That's the reaction I hear at work whenever we implement something new - "can't do that, we've always done it this way".

That is a piss poor losing argument! By your own reasoning, we should all still be reloading only on ss presses.

Nothing wrong with using a FCD as a crimp die. Using a turret press you can easily feel if it is post sizing. What do you know? Built in gauge.

Steve, we have all read your horrors with the LNL and the Loadmaster. Maybe you are just one unlucky dude.

It's true that there's tweaking on a LM each caliber change, but it's not awful. I've loaded thousands on mine. I just don't care for the flimsy priming system.
I've loaded ten's of thousands on the LNL (multiple calibers) and works great.

To the OP: You'll never regret buying the LCT. Best valued press out there.

Of course, this is all my opinion and like all the other opinions above is only worth what you have paid for it.

 

That's the reaction I hear at work whenever we implement something new - "can't do that, we've always done it this way".

That is a piss poor losing argument! By your own reasoning, we should all still be reloading only on ss presses.

I am probably the most experimenting person around. I buy every gadget that has even a glimmer of hope for producing ammo faster. The progression looks like: SS -> PW Turret -> Dillon 450 -> Dillon 550 -> RCBS Green Machine -> Dillon 1050. I try everything that makes sense. The FCD doesn't. If the FCD is to do anything, it is only because something else in the process failed.

Nothing wrong with using a FCD as a crimp die. Using a turret press you can easily feel if it is post sizing. What do you know? Built in gauge.

And yet, if you follow along with the 'fail' threads around here, every one of them involves pre-sizing or post-sizing. Somehow, when they get their process straightened out, neither are needed. Inevitably, it revolves around not properly sizing the brass.

Cheap digital scales (non-reloading specific) is another area of debate.

People can make their own choices. All we can do is recommend against some of them as unnecessary or more effort than they are worth.

Richard

 

The FCD doesn't. If the FCD is to do anything, it is only because something else in the process failed.

And yet, if you follow along with the 'fail' threads around here, every one of them involves pre-sizing or post-sizing.
Richard

That's simply the truth you want to be. Actually, the fail threads I read have more to do with people not setting a standard seating die properly, causing a slightly crushed case that won't chamber. I have not read any that caused a problem because they used a FCD - unless they set it so deeply that it caused the bullet to deform. Ironically, many who don't use them also use case gauges - I've never even seen one, but again, that's simply my choice.

I'm not sure why some people here can't simply let others have their opinions and let it go. It isn't necessary to "save" the world all the time from experiences that differ.

I'm in another forum on woodworking and I continue to be pleased at the fact that the resident "experts" are always very helpful and don't climb on anyone for the different choices they make. If they do - it's done in a helpful way that doesn't come across as presumtious and members seem to always point out what their experience is - not that it's industry standard fact.

Let's just let people post without always having to "correct" them and consistenly having the last word and having to start contention. I don't care what technique, tool, brand or manual you use - let it be individual choices, as things should be.

 

It's always the same bullying over the FCD and usually from the same people.

 

There is no good reason for them to be bullied on reloading forums either.
.

Wow, bullying in the NFL & now here. geeese! A disagreement is not bullying, even if I tell you you are wrong, not bullying. Send you a daily PM calling you names, call you daily, maybe.
There are a lot of noob reloaders reading along & many will fall into the trap of buying gear that does not help them & can frustrate their relaoding efforts. SO for many of us that have been there, we just report, you decide. Let's leave the PC stuff home, bullying, really??:dunno:

 

I'll chime in on the OP's original topic and say the Lee classic 4 hole turret press has been the only Lee press I've kept over the years. I have two. I tried both the LLM and the Pro 1000 and both were difficult to use and the attachments are mostly cheap plastic and worthless. I got rid of both but still use my two classics. I prime with a hand primer and load slowly and carefully with my classic turrets...It's a way for me to decompress as well as practical and cheaper.

If you decide to go to a high output progressive I'd recommend the Dillon RL550B. Best money you'll ever spend.

On the topic of crimp or not to crimp...everyone has an opinion. You need to read, read, read and read some more of the standard reloading manuals and decide for yourself if you want to crimp. Internet posts are full of just as much bad info as they are good. God luck and be safe.

 

Wow, bullying in the NFL & now here. geeese! A disagreement is not bullying, even if I tell you you are wrong, not bullying. Send you a daily PM calling you names, call you daily, maybe.
There are a lot of noob reloaders reading along & many will fall into the trap of buying gear that does not help them & can frustrate their relaoding efforts. SO for many of us that have been there, we just report, you decide. Let's leave the PC stuff home, bullying, really??:dunno:

That sounds so innocent, and yes the intentions may be honorable, but all anyone has to do is mention FCD, and the same people's buttons are pushed. It's such a bore, maybe needing a sticky and a covenant to leave it alone or at least tone it down.

If one routinely characterizes use or even ownership of an FCD as foolishness, without the context of lead bullets, that's bullying. It's right up there with Lee bashing in general. An FCD is a legitimate product.