[Big1]

Very interesting.

 

[TiggerTigger]

YouTube. LOL. Garand Thumb. Gets old. Lots of YouTube folks get old fast.

 

[jf44]

25 minutes of info that we all know???
Garand...

 

[DeltaFiveBravo]

The Alphabets also look at misses and have come (sagaciously) to the conclusion that a hit with a sub par caliber (or non ideal but good enough) is better than a miss with an ideal man stopper. When they asked for a custom caliber to meet all their needs - the 10mm was created. Only to find out that recoil was an issue and subsequently agents’ hit percentage went down.

The FBI never issued full power 10mm ammunition to its agents.

In fact, the FBI chose its 10mm reduced velocity load a couple of years BEFORE it issued the pistol to fire it from - the S&W 1076.

The claim that agents couldn't handle full power 10mm ammunition is a myth. It never happened.

The FBI designed a 10mm load that used a bullet with the same sectional density as .45 ACP 230 grains and propelled it about 100 fps faster than .45 ACP. It outperformed .38 Special, 9mm and .45 ACP in objective tests.

As a result of its collaboration with the FBI on the FBI's duty pistol, S&W developed its .40 S&W cartridge, which matched the FBI's 10mm reduced velocity ballistics, but with a cartridge that fit in medium-frame 9mm pistols. It allowed law enforcement agencies, that already issued S&W 9mm pistols, to adopt a duty cartridge that matched the ballistics of the FBI's new load without having to buy all new kit for officers.

 

[Mountain10mm]

The FBI never issued full power 10mm ammunition to its agents.

In fact, the FBI chose its 10mm reduced velocity load a couple of years BEFORE it issued the pistol to fire it from - the S&W 1076.

The claim that agents couldn't handle full power 10mm ammunition is a myth. It never happened.

The FBI designed a 10mm load that used a bullet with the same sectional density as .45 ACP 230 grains and propelled it about 100 fps faster than .45 ACP. It outperformed .38 Special, 9mm and .45 ACP in objective tests.

As a result of its collaboration with the FBI on the FBI's duty pistol, S&W developed its .40 S&W cartridge, which matched the FBI's 10mm reduced velocity ballistics, but with a cartridge that fit in medium-frame 9mm pistols. It allowed law enforcement agencies, that already issued S&W 9mm pistols, to adopt a duty cartridge that matched the ballistics of the FBI's new load without having to buy all new kit for officers.

Doesn't matter what they issued. They asked for a custom caliber for a man-stopper with strict penetration requirements, the full power 10mm was created and met those needs...until the recoil, frame size, etc. was too much for the agents, or the agents doing the initial evaluation. I wholeheartedly agree, it got watered down from there. Recoil has been and still is an issue. 100% on that. 9mm was not chosen because of it performed better than 10 or 40, it was chosen because it was good enough and hits on target were easier to be made. Any hit was (and is) better than a miss. I also think the FBI is on their second style/brand of 9mm now too.

 

[DeltaFiveBravo]

Doesn't matter what they issued. They asked for a custom caliber for a man-stopper with strict penetration requirements, the full power 10mm was created and met those needs...until the recoil, frame size, etc. was too much for the agents, or the agents doing the initial evaluation. I wholeheartedly agree, it got watered down from there. Recoil has been and still is an issue. 100% on that. 9mm was not chosen because of it performed better than 10 or 40, it was chosen because it was good enough and hits on target were easier to be made. Any hit was (and is) better than a miss. I also think the FBI is on their second style/brand of 9mm now too.

FBI-FTU SAIC John Hall realized the 180gr 10mm bullet shared the same sectional density as .45 ACP 230gr and brought in his personally owned Colt Delta Elite 10mm 1911 pistol, and handloaded reduced velocity 10mm loads to see how it performed in the FBI's new test protocol. This is how the FBI ended up with its reduced velocity load.

THE FBI NEVER ISSUED A FULL POWER 10MM LOAD TO AGENTS. The reduced velocity load was developed BEFORE it chose a 10mm pistol.

The reduced velocity load was chosen by the FBI in the late 1980s.

The S&W 1076 10mm pistol was first issued to FBI agents in 1990.

There were problems with the S&W 1076 pistol that the FBI selected. The problems were the result of the FBI wanting the 1076 to have a frame-mounted de-cocking lever (like SIG pistols had back then) instead of S&W's slide-mounted hammer-drop safety. When the technical issues were finally resolved by S&W the FBI had already decided to switch to the identically performing 40 S&W. The FBI later sold its 1076 pistols and you can find them for sale.

It took ammo manufacturers several years to develop JHP bullets that reliably expand. One of the problems with the FBI's ammo test was it gave more points to bullets that worked well against hard barrier materials (windshield glass, sheetmetal and wood) than for bullets that provided reliable expansion performance against soft barrier materials (clothing). As a result, bullets that performed well in the FBI tests didn't expand very well in many shootings. Because of this unintended consequence, the IWBA developed its 4-layer heavy denim cloth test to force bullet manufacturers to design bullets that resist plugging with cloth and expand reliably after passing through clothing. The FBI, being the FBI, decided to revise its heavy clothing test instead of adopting the IWBA's superior 4-layer denim cloth test. The ultimate result is that there's very little practical difference in wounding effects among the common combat handgun cartridges, which is why many agencies, including the FBI, currently use 9mm.

Link to an article from John Hall, FBI-FTU SAIC "The FBI's 10mm Pistol" - 122334NCJRS.pdf (ojp.gov)

 

[Mountain10mm]

FBI-FTU SAIC John Hall realized the 180gr 10mm bullet shared the same sectional density as .45 ACP 230gr and brought in his personally owned Colt Delta Elite 10mm 1911 pistol, and handloaded reduced velocity 10mm loads to see how it performed in the FBI's new test protocol. This is how the FBI ended up with its reduced velocity load.

THE FBI NEVER ISSUED A FULL POWER 10MM LOAD TO AGENTS. The reduced velocity load was developed BEFORE it chose a 10mm pistol.

The reduced velocity load was chosen by the FBI in the late 1980s.

The S&W 1076 10mm pistol was first issued to FBI agents in 1990.

There were problems with the S&W 1076 pistol that the FBI selected. The problems were the result of the FBI wanting the 1076 to have a frame-mounted de-cocking lever (like SIG pistols had back then) instead of S&W's slide-mounted hammer-drop safety. When the technical issues were finally resolved by S&W the FBI had already decided to switch to the identically performing 40 S&W. The FBI later sold its 1076 pistols and you can find them for sale.

It took ammo manufacturers several years to develop JHP bullets that reliably expand. One of the problems with the FBI's ammo test was it gave more points to bullets that worked well against hard barrier materials (windshield glass, sheetmetal and wood) than for bullets that provided reliable expansion performance against soft barrier materials (clothing). As a result, bullets that performed well in the FBI tests didn't expand very well in many shootings. Because of this unintended consequence, the IWBA developed its 4-layer heavy denim cloth test to force bullet manufacturers to design bullets that resist plugging with cloth and expand reliably after passing through clothing. The FBI, being the FBI, decided to revise its heavy clothing test instead of adopting the IWBA's superior 4-layer denim cloth test. The ultimate result is that there's very little practical difference in wounding effects among the common combat handgun cartridges, which is why many agencies, including the FBI, currently use 9mm.

Link to an article from John Hall, FBI-FTU SAIC "The FBI's 10mm Pistol" - 122334NCJRS.pdf (ojp.gov)

DFB I think we’re on the same page. However I’m unclear what your point is other than the fbi never used a full power 10 and the gun came after the ammo. I’m not arguing against either of those. My point Is the 10mm is a superior man stopper in various testing regimes - hard and soft barriers. Yes testing protocols have changed over the years. Recoil was an issue in deciding to use the lighter power loads (even your article says so). Recoil still is an issue. While most people think the FBI picks the best caliber for the job based on that caliber’s terminal performance, that is not true. It’s picked because a combination of reasons, terminal ballistics being only a part of the criteria. Ability to hit the target (ie recoil) is also part of the decision, so is cost, gun size, etc. This article specifically states 80% of shots are missed. This was a factor in picking 9mm, easier to hit for most people. That is my point. A hit by a 9 is better than a miss by a 10.

 

[DeltaFiveBravo]

There are a lot of folks that mistakenly believe that FBI agents "couldn't handle the recoil" of full power 10mm loads and because of that the FBI switched to a reduced velocity load. The timeline of the FBI's adoption of its reduced velocity 10mm ammo and its 10mm duty pistol disprove the myth because FBI agents were never issued full power 10mm ammunition.

While the reduced velocity load also reduced both recoil and muzzle blast those are not the reasons why the FBI chose it. The reduced velocity load simply outperformed 9mm and .45 ACP in terminal ballistics (with the side benefit of reduced recoil/muzzle blast), and it also had plenty of potential for future development (different bullet weights, higher velocity), if necessary, in case "the experts" were wrong.

 

[Chui]

wow a 9mm and 45 acp performing identically in a human body? who would've guessed that would happen

Until the FedBois made a change most “in the know” felt otherwise, a believe it or not. Anyone who disagreed was “unwashed pond scum”.

 

[uofaengr]

Dr Charlie would be a great stand in for dr fauci

Fauci would've been a great stand-in for the dummies.

 

[Overkill777]

I love how a 9mm vs 45 thread turns into a 10mm discussion.

I carry 9mm typically. If I decide I want more than 9mm I go to 10mm. No need for 45 for me.

 

[Mark2Glock]

I usually done my tests on tough as nails raccoons and 3 calibers that done a one shot kill were 158 gr xtp/125 jhp n 357.agnum and the 240 jhp 44 magnum along with 3" 410. I emptied a mag in 45acp more so that I stopped using it. The 40 s&w does a better job though so think the 10mm will do well.

 

[fredj338]

Fauci would've been a great stand-in for the dummies.

Except he is full of crap instead of gel.

 

[Jonah77]

Except he is full of crap instead of gel.

Actually…

He is full of money…

lol

 

[JMag]

I love how a 9mm vs 45 thread turns into a 10mm discussion.

I carry 9mm typically. If I decide I want more than 9mm I go to 10mm. No need for 45 for me.

You see, the 10mm really settled the age old argument. Then someone decided they still really liked the arguments and thusly, the 40 S&W was born.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Overkill777]

You see, the 10mm really settled the age old argument. Then someone decided they still really liked the arguments and thusly, the 40 S&W was born.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I don't need 40 s&w either.

9mm or 10mm. No need for anything in between.

 

[fredj338]

Actually…

He is full of money…

lol

Yeah but so full of crap. He makes Hunter Biden look honest.

 

[HKMark23]

FMJ sucks for self-defense

Why...?

 

[Deaf Smith]

Why...?

Does not create large volume of destruction inside the shotee... Just pokes a hole... and most of the time exits the shotee and potentially harms others.

Blunt nosed rounds, like semi-wadcutters, poke full size holes all the way through the shotee..

JHPs, while expanding, tear even bigger holes and thus more chances of bleeding, hitting organs, causing shock.

Buckshot does even more... many holes, lots of bleeding, several organs hit.

The best are the EXPLODING rounds... much bigger holes, lots of fragments, shotee has a fist size hole inside 'em! Oh right, exploding stuff is a no no....

 

[Mountain10mm]

Why...?

Except if the full metal jacket round isn't jacketed and it's just lead, then it's good for extremely dangerous game that wants to eat and kill you. If it has a little flat spot on the front of the bullet, it's even better. Then it becomes a magic dangerous, dinosaur killer bullet. It's so deadly, like unimaginable, but it doesn't work on bad guys.