[WeeWilly]

Well it seems Hodgdons 147gr WSF max load isn't too far off max after all. I worked up to a 1298fps average and saw something interesting. I saw it when working up with the 140gr sierra too, but didn't think to mention it in my erlier post. With the two hottest loads I went to with these bullets, a light colored ring appeared in the brass where the base of the bullet sits. It's not raised, just off color. The brass mics the same just to each side of it as it does on top of it. With the 147 XTP load I saw no case head expansion with that load, and the primers look fine, but the brass at that ring mics .0005 larger than the lighter loads.With the sierra load I didn't mic the ring because I was seeing .0005 case head expansion so I decided to back off. Charge weight/velocity gains were still linear with both loads.
I'm gonna call it max .2 gr below when the ring appeared. Those loads brass mics the same as my start loads, and average 1280 on the nose. Seems to me the 357's bottleneck case has a good high pressure indicator built in, at least with longer bullets.
What do you guys think? I'd like to hear some opinions from some of you more experienced reloaders.

I can't say if the colored ring is an indication or not as I have not loaded 357 SIG at all. I have found when I was experimenting with twilight zone loads in 10mm and 45 Super, case head expansion is one of the most reliable indicators, that trumps reading primers, etc. The only other indicator I found that was a absolute "stop" sign was smiled brass, which definitely starts cropping up when you have gone too far in 10mm and 45 Super and stock Glock chamber. Not sure the 357 SIG chamber in the Glock will yield smiles as I assume it has more case head support, given the inherent feed advantage of a bottle neck cartridge.

Net/net, it sounds like you have a really solid approachand conclusion.

 

[fredj338]

Well it seems Hodgdons 147gr WSF max load isn't too far off max after all. I worked up to a 1298fps average and saw something interesting. I saw it when working up with the 140gr sierra too, but didn't think to mention it in my erlier post. With the two hottest loads I went to with these bullets, a light colored ring appeared in the brass where the base of the bullet sits. It's not raised, just off color. The brass mics the same just to each side of it as it does on top of it. With the 147 XTP load I saw no case head expansion with that load, and the primers look fine, but the brass at that ring mics .0005 larger than the lighter loads.With the sierra load I didn't mic the ring because I was seeing .0005 case head expansion so I decided to back off. Charge weight/velocity gains were still linear with both loads.
I'm gonna call it max .2 gr below when the ring appeared. Those loads brass mics the same as my start loads, and average 1280 on the nose. Seems to me the 357's bottleneck case has a good high pressure indicator built in, at least with longer bullets.
What do you guys think? I'd like to hear some opinions from some of you more experienced reloaders.

If you want max vel with lowest pressures, you are gonna have to go to s slower powder like AA#9 or LS. Your muzzle blast will be there with either.

 

[timmay]

I believe your right about that Fred. I've been doing a lot of reading, researching powders. Seems there's no such thing as a low flash powder that gets top velocity in this round. WSF does well with the 147's, not sure what it'll do with the 124 XTP. I'm gonna work on that this week. Looking at Jeffery Behrs photos I'd say WSF has similar flash to the factory GD load, maybe a little more than HS-6, but not much. I had thought BE-86 was the answer, but unfortunately it's too flashy. I'm beginning to think lack of suitable powder is why the majors aren't loading 357 defense rounds faster.
WeeWilly, the 357 Glock barrel does dave very good case head support. I think the ring is a pressure indicator, as it only appears with hot loads, and it's right where the back of the bullet sits. Not sure if it'll appear with shorter 124gr bullets, but I'll find out and report back. I didn't buy a 357 Sig to shoot bunny fart loads.

 

[fredj338]

Ramshot & VV have a good rep for lower flash. Enforcer seems a good fit, but they don't show data, hmm.

 

[Cycletroll]

800x is one of my favorites with hot Sig loading. At max loads it is mildly compressed.
Warning: these loads exceed any book data and may be dangerous!
Rem brass, Rem 6.5 small rifle primer, 140gr (.357) XTP@1.146 with 9.0gr 800x in a stock G31 barrel(22# RSA) yields 1406fps and 1" groups at 25yds. .004 Case head expansion.
I reload .357 Sig like a mini rifle round only bumping the shoulder back enough to chamber and head space is on the shoulder with very slight roll crimp into the canneleure of the .357 XTP. All hot hand loads are plunk tested in my barrel to ensure there is no contact of the bullet to rifling and the bullet drops freely out when barrel is turned upside down.
I've reloaded this load in the same brass three times with no undue wear and tear. Recoil is brisk however and a heavier recoil spring is recommended!

 

[timmay]

Ramshot & VV have a good rep for lower flash. Enforcer seems a good fit, but they don't show data, hmm.

Lyman 49th lists 15.2gr enforcer @ 1429fps from a 4" barrel. 11.3gr N105 @ 1381fps. Ramshot powders seem about as common as bigfoot these days. I may give N105 a shot if I can't match it's performance with WSF. I wish Longshot was lower flash. I think it's a great powder in 357 sig, as is 800x, and both are available locally for me.

Edit: Those are 124gr loads above.

 

[timmay]

800x is one of my favorites with hot Sig loading. At max loads it is mildly compressed.
Warning: these loads exceed any book data and may be dangerous!
Rem brass, Rem 6.5 small rifle primer, 140gr (.357) XTP@1.146 with 9.0gr 800x in a stock G31 barrel(22# RSA) yields 1406fps and 1" groups at 25yds. .004 Case head expansion.
I reload .357 Sig like a mini rifle round only bumping the shoulder back enough to chamber and head space is on the shoulder with very slight roll crimp into the canneleure of the .357 XTP. All hot hand loads are plunk tested in my barrel to ensure there is no contact of the bullet to rifling and the bullet drops freely out when barrel is turned upside down.
I've reloaded this load in the same brass three times with no undue wear and tear. Recoil is brisk however and a heavier recoil spring is recommended!

That is a smokin 140gr load.

 

[Ammunition Attrition]

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22128501&postcount=62

And it's all in SAAMI spec, no rifle primer needed, .356" dia boolit,
all "on the charts"--the "old" charts that is, the real ones. That's 800X in .357 SIG for you. But 3n37 is more accurate which is more rewarding and to the point. Still, it's nice to know the potential...

 

[WeeWilly]

Lyman 49th lists 15.2gr enforcer @ 1429fps from a 4" barrel. 11.3gr N105 @ 1381fps. Ramshot powders seem about as common as bigfoot these days. I may give N105 a shot if I can't match it's performance with WSF. I wish Longshot was lower flash. I think it's a great powder in 357 sig, as is 800x, and both are available locally for me.

Edit: Those are 124gr loads above.

N105 is the lowest flash powder I have ever shot, amazingly low flash given how much powder you are usually stuffing inside the case. It is much slower burning than WSF.

 

[timmay]

N105 is the lowest flash powder I have ever shot, amazingly low flash given how much powder you are usually stuffing inside the case. It is much slower burning than WSF.

I've also considered n350. VV claims mid 14's with a 123gr, Lyman says mid 13's with a 124gr. Given it's burn rate and VV's reputation for exagerating it's velocities, I'm inclined to believe the Lyman data.

 

[WeeWilly]

I've also considered n350. VV claims mid 14's with a 123gr, Lyman says mid 13's with a 124gr. Given it's burn rate and VV's reputation for exagerating it's velocities, I'm inclined to believe the Lyman data.

In many of their powders I have found the VV load data useless. In 10mm, I didn't get to the same velocities with N350 as I did 3N37. N350 is one of my favorites for 9mm and 40S&W. 3N37 is my all time favorite for 124gr 9mm. Both have a lot more flash than N105.

 

[timmay]

In many of their powders I have found the VV load data useless. In 10mm, I didn't get to the same velocities with N350 as I did 3N37. N350 is one of my favorites for 9mm and 40S&W. 3N37 is my all time favorite for 124gr 9mm. Both have a lot more flash than N105.

Thanks for the info. I loaded a batch of work up loads today with WSF and 124 XTP's. I'll run them over the chrono tomorrow. If I can' t get to 1400, I'll probably pick up some N105.

 

[timmay]

I started with the 124's where I left off with the 147's. My max 147 load got me a 1406 average with no pressure signs at all with the 124, so I went up .2gr. That got me to a 1443 average with no signs of excessive pressure. Up another .2gr =1483fps average. Again with no indication of pressure problems. Cases mic the same as my 147gr start loads, charge increase to velocity gains stayed linear, primers look good, no extractor rash, 18fps ES. I don't know what else to look for. I stopped there, as I see no need to push any further. Can anyone tell me if WSF is temp sensitive? It appears to me that WSF is at least the equal of Longshot with 124's as well as 147's, with much less flash.
Loads tested were all 1.150 COAL. 8.2gr, 8.4gr, and 8.6gr WSF . Federal SPP. Glock 32 factory barrel. If anyone's interested in working up, I'd be interested in your results. There's precious little data out there for WSF in this caliber, other than Hodgdons 147gr data.
I guess I should say, if you do, you do so at your own risk, as this is outside any manufacturer data.

 

[Cycletroll]

One thing to consider with 147gr 9mm bullets is that ALL of them grenade when driven to the speeds .357 Sig can dish out. In fact they all start to come apart at velocities you can generate in a Glock 17 for that matter with +p loads.

The reason I use .357 revolver bullets is they are designed to hold up to higher velocities.

In Gel the 140 (.357) XTP does much better than the 147 (9mm) XTP but I actually prefer the 158gr and 180gr when loading heavy for the woods. Better penetration.
The 158gr XTP@1300 is a beast!

 

[Ammunition Attrition]

Thanks for that additional .357 info, Cycletroll. As long as they caliper out to .357" real-world I see no problem. .358" makes me a little leery, but .357 is sweet. **Just calipered my two most accurate bullets out to 50 yards through both factory Sig Sauer and Bar-Sto barrels, the Sierra 125g JHP and the HAP 125g: they measure out to .3565-.357 real-world dia.***

 

[Cycletroll]

Hornady XTP's mic at .3565-.357 and the fattest part is fairly short. I've had no issues with pressure and the slightly tighter fit leads to much better accuracy than i find in most .355 bullets.

 

[timmay]

I'm definitely gonna pick up some .357 125gr XTP's, and work up a load.. There's no way the 124gr 9mm bullet is going to hold together at 1480. I would agree that .357 bullets are the way to go for full power loads. Going with .357's gives us lots more options as well as better performance at higher velocities.
It was the 357 Sig that got me to get off the fence and start reloading, and it's been the most fun, most rewarding caliber to load for. All the advice and info y'all have contributed is much appreciated.

 

[Ammunition Attrition]

Hornady XTP's mic at .3565-.357 and the fattest part is fairly short. I've had no issues with pressure and the slightly tighter fit leads to much better accuracy than i find in most .355 bullets.

CT, I picked up a box of 140g and 158g and they caliper out to .358"dia., which I think is a little tight and will definitely create more pressure than a true .357" measured boolit just because, well, friction and physics. How much? I would NOT load 'em with a max load of any powder, but maybe a light load. And I'd expect my barrel to take on more wear and fouling, though I've been told by a mole that I "won't shoot out your Bar-Stos". Still, I won't shoot these .358" dia boolits through 'em, because I already figured out they like .357" true dia. and I lean overly safe with explosives.
Good news is the Sierra .357/.38cal 140g JHPs I also got measure out to a true .357" dia., and there ain't no boolit more accurate than a Sierra. Just hope they hold up to high-velocity penetration 'cause I'm gonna load some to 1400fps+ and I've heard their labeled ".357 Sig" JHPs (.356" 125g are super accurate) fragment. I expect better with these. Maybe I end up buying one of those old .357 Magnum autos--what, the Automag was .44 Mag, what's the .357 auto?.....

 

[timmay]

I picked up some 125gr .357 XTP's. They mic .3565-.357. I ran some over the chrono yesterday. Velocities were similar to the .355 XTP's at the same charge weights. No worries here. I'll be sticking with .357's in the sig round.
I fired a couple of 147gr XTP's into a red clay creek bank yesterday at 1250fps. They definitely weren't up to that torture test. One completely fragmented, the other's jacket peeled back to the base, and it shed most of it's lead. It looked similar to the 10mm underwood meteor in tnoutdoors video. Both left fist size cavities about 6" deep in the wet clay.

 

[noylj]

And of course, almost 90 years or more of using 0.357-0.358" jacketed and lead bullets in 9x19 has shown that there is no problem, as long as loads, like all loads, are worked up from starting load.
Nice to know that decades of experience mean nothing 'cause you KNOW that pressures will go up dangerously.