[dakota359]

So I purchased a complete lower from a LGS. I was planning to build another rifle but I have changed my mind. Now I want to build a pistol with a stabilizing brace. The lower came with a rifle stock attached however the LGS made me wait the 72 hour pistol waiting period before pick up (Because it could be made into a pistol). So will I get in trouble with the ATF if I make an AR pistol out of this lower? I know that in order to make a pistol AR the lower has to be a "virgin" lower but since I waited 72 hours already as if it was for a pistol does that change anything? :dunno:

 

[PAGunner]

Short answer is buy another stripped lower or AR-pistol lower. Once a rifle has a buttstock on it the AR lower is considered a rifle... Converting to a "pistol" from rifle and adding a barrel shorter than 16" will technically make it an SBR, so unless you plan on filling a form 1 out and paying the stamp you're risking 10 years and loss of rights on the federal level.

 

[03scgt]

Was it transfered as "other" or a rifle ?


Most likely you'll need a stripped or pistol marked lower to be safe

 

[PEC-Memphis]

Once a rifle has a buttstock on it the AR lower is considered a rifle...

I don't THINK that this is correct. If it was registered as a pistol and first completed as a pistol, I believe it will always be a "pistol", even if it is a "pistol" with a 16" barrel and a shoulder stock.

See: http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

With that being said, I making sure before I do it, I am currently awaiting a reply from the Technical Branch of the BATFE.

 

[DustyJacket]

Half-right.
If it originally had a shoulder stock on it, it is a rifle and that is it.

If it was a stripped lower you would be in the clear.

there are MANY letters from the ATF on that.

You can always go to arf com to view them.......

 

[ksmedman]

Short answer is buy another stripped lower or AR-pistol lower. Once a rifle has a buttstock on it the AR lower is considered a rifle... Converting to a "pistol" from rifle and adding a barrel shorter than 16" will technically make it an SBR, so unless you plan on filling a form 1 out and paying the stamp you're risking 10 years and loss of rights on the federal level.

Actually, no.

Per BATF a lower can be built, disassembled, rebuilt, etc... into a rifle or a pistol, as long as the constructed firearm is legal.

Per the attached 2011 interpretation by ATF, as long as you don't construct an illegal weapon with the parts, you can go back and forth between a pistol and rifle as you wish. It's a long and winding explanation, but worth the read:

......The Court held that, where aggregated parts could convert a pistol into either a regulated short-barreled rifle, or an unregulated rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, the NFA was ambiguous and applied the “rule of lenity” (i.e., ambiguities in criminal statutes should be resolved in favor of the defendant) so that the pistol and carbine kit, when packaged together, were not considered a “short-barreled rifle” for purposes of the NFA...

...Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm regulated under the NFA (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or “any other weapon” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(e)), no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle does not result in the making of a new weapon;...

The other thing to watch for is constructive intent. In other words, if you have parts that can only go together to build something illegal, don't have the parts. However, if there is any other legal construction that the parts can be used for, you're good to go.

The way I see that is, if I had an assembled AR pistol, and the only barrel I owned was less than 16", and also owned a stock, that would be an issue. I can't build anything with that stock and the parts I have that's not unregulated.
But if I had a 16" or longer barrel, another lower, or even another constructed AR carbine or rifle, I'd be OK. In this case, the stock has another, legal, use. Even if I only had one lower, but had a legal barrel and the stock, I'd be OK. In that case I could disassemble the AR pistol, and then assemble a legal rifle.

This is good news, and by a Holder appointee no less! Here's a copy of the ruling, been this way since 2011:

https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

 

[VCoupe376ci]

I don't THINK that this is correct. If it was registered as a pistol and first completed as a pistol, I believe it will always be a "pistol", even if it is a "pistol" with a 16" barrel and a shoulder stock.

See: http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

With that being said, I making sure before I do it, I am currently awaiting a reply from the Technical Branch of the BATFE.

You can convert a pistol to a rifle but not back again. According to the law, once a rifle, always a rifle.

 

[VCoupe376ci]

Actually, no.

Per BATF a lower can be built, disassembled, rebuilt, etc... into a rifle or a pistol, as long as the constructed firearm is legal.

Per the attached 2011 interpretation by ATF, as long as you don't construct an illegal weapon with the parts, you can go back and forth between a pistol and rifle as you wish. It's a long and winding explanation, but worth the read:




The other thing to watch for is constructive intent. In other words, if you have parts that can only go together to build something illegal, don't have the parts. However, if there is any other legal construction that the parts can be used for, you're good to go.

The way I see that is, if I had an assembled AR pistol, and the only barrel I owned was less than 16", and also owned a stock, that would be an issue. I can't build anything with that stock and the parts I have that's not unregulated.
But if I had a 16" or longer barrel, another lower, or even another constructed AR carbine or rifle, I'd be OK. In this case, the stock has another, legal, use. Even if I only had one lower, but had a legal barrel and the stock, I'd be OK. In that case I could disassemble the AR pistol, and then assemble a legal rifle.

This is good news, and by a Holder appointee no less! Here's a copy of the ruling, been this way since 2011:

https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

I would think a 16" or longer barrel would defeat the purpose of an AR pistol. You have about the length of a rifle with the added disadvantage of not having the stock for stabilization.

 

[DustyJacket]

You can convert a pistol to a rifle but not back again. According to the law, once a rifle, always a rifle.

Except for the letters from the ATF about "kits". They don't really define what a kit is, but they mention a Thompson Center Contender kit.

With a kit, you can go from a pistol to a rifle and back, but apparently it has to start as a pistol.

It looks to me that the old "if it started as a rifle, it must stay a rifle" still stands. However, it will be up to the courts to decide. I would hate to be that test case.

I want to change my AR pistol into a rifle, but am waiting for others to test the waters on that one. I don't have the money for lawyers.

 

[ksmedman]

I would think a 16" or longer barrel would defeat the purpose of an AR pistol. You have about the length of a rifle with the added disadvantage of not having the stock for stabilization.

The rifle barrel is for a rifle, and have a pistol length barrel is for your pistol.
You would only need one lower for both, and can construct a pistol, or rifle, or back and forth, as you wish.
That's the point of the 2011 court decision and BATF release.

 

[ksmedman]

Except for the letters from the ATF about "kits". They don't really define what a kit is, but they mention a Thompson Center Contender kit.

With a kit, you can go from a pistol to a rifle and back, but apparently it has to start as a pistol.

It looks to me that the old "if it started as a rifle, it must stay a rifle" still stands. However, it will be up to the courts to decide. I would hate to be that test case.

I want to change my AR pistol into a rifle, but am waiting for others to test the waters on that one. I don't have the money for lawyers.

Read the decision again.
You can build anything, back and forth, as long as the final construction is legal.
The "test case" has already been litigated, hence the court's decision cited in the release...

 

[VCoupe376ci]

The rifle barrel is for a rifle, and have a pistol length barrel is for your pistol.
You would only need one lower for both, and can construct a pistol, or rifle, or back and forth, as you wish.
That's the point of the 2011 court decision and BATF release.

However having a stock in the same place as a pistol is questionable unless you plan on changing the buffer tube out for one that will not accept a stock every time you want to go back and forth. I wouldn't want to be the test case for that either.

 

[PAGunner]

I don't THINK that this is correct. If it was registered as a pistol and first completed as a pistol, I believe it will always be a "pistol", even if it is a "pistol" with a 16" barrel and a shoulder stock.

See: http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

With that being said, I making sure before I do it, I am currently awaiting a reply from the Technical Branch of the BATFE.

Might want to read page 3 of the link you provided, I'll take a quoted paragraph from it.

"Nonetheless, if a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length is assembled or otherwise produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle, such a weapon is a “weapon made from a rifle” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4). Such a weapon would not be a “pistol” because the weapon was not originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by one hand."

Once a rifle, always a rifle per BATFE. I wouldn't want to be their test case...

 

[PAGunner]

Actually, no.

Per BATF a lower can be built, disassembled, rebuilt, etc... into a rifle or a pistol, as long as the constructed firearm is legal.

Per the attached 2011 interpretation by ATF, as long as you don't construct an illegal weapon with the parts, you can go back and forth between a pistol and rifle as you wish. It's a long and winding explanation, but worth the read:




The other thing to watch for is constructive intent. In other words, if you have parts that can only go together to build something illegal, don't have the parts. However, if there is any other legal construction that the parts can be used for, you're good to go.

The way I see that is, if I had an assembled AR pistol, and the only barrel I owned was less than 16", and also owned a stock, that would be an issue. I can't build anything with that stock and the parts I have that's not unregulated.
But if I had a 16" or longer barrel, another lower, or even another constructed AR carbine or rifle, I'd be OK. In this case, the stock has another, legal, use. Even if I only had one lower, but had a legal barrel and the stock, I'd be OK. In that case I could disassemble the AR pistol, and then assemble a legal rifle.

This is good news, and by a Holder appointee no less! Here's a copy of the ruling, been this way since 2011:

https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

Incorrect, read the paragraph I quoted from my last post and reread the original post. OP stated he bought a completed lower with rifle stock on it, so it's considered a rifle by BATFE.

 

[PEC-Memphis]

Read the decision again.
You can build anything, back and forth, as long as the final construction is legal.
The "test case" has already been litigated, hence the court's decision cited in the release...

That's not what I read.

If it starts as a pistol, it can be reconfigured as a rifle, as long as there is never a NFA configuration, ie. you can't keep the pistol barrel on the assembled upper and lower and add a shoulder stock, then change to a >16" barrel - as you would have assembled an SBR at one point. You can remove the pistol barrel (presumably by removing the pistol upper assembly), then install a shoulder stock, then install a rifle upper, ie. never in a NFA configuration.

If it started as a pistol, but is now configured as a (non-NFA) rifle, it can be converted back as long as it is never in an NFA configuration. You would remove the rifle upper and shoulder stock, then install the pistol upper. ie. never in a NFA configuration. (3rd from last paragraph).

However, the next to the last paragraph specifically states that an NFA weapon is produced when a hand gun, or barrel of <16" installed, when a firearm is produced from a firearm originally assembled or produced only as a rifle. So the original configuration DOES matter. (2nd from last paragraph).

As far as the "kit" part - the second paragraph specifically states that the parts may be from a "kit", "individual parts", or "parts sets" (also "collection of parts" is later mentioned).

 

[bikerdog]

Once registered as a rifle it's always a rifle. It sounds like you might need to get. Stripped lower and when competing the Ffl paper work specify it as a handgun.


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[batman4706]

If the receiver has never had a "rifle" upper installed it is simply an "other" as on the 4473 or receiver. Once a rifle upper is attached it becomes a rifle and can never be a pistol. If it is built as a pistol first it can be either. I just built an SBR, I bought a lower with a stock attached. Never put a rifle upper on it. Got rid of the stock and made it a pistol, then when my stamp came in I put a stock on it. I can remove the stock at anytime and make it a pistol. The type of buffer tube on a pistol does not matter (there are numerous ATF letters about this) I had an A2 tube on mine while it was a pistol.

 

[bikerdog]

If the receiver has never had a "rifle" upper installed it is simply an "other" as on the 4473 or receiver. Once a rifle upper is attached it becomes a rifle and can never be a pistol. If it is built as a pistol first it can be either. I just built an SBR, I bought a lower with a stock attached. Never put a rifle upper on it. Got rid of the stock and made it a pistol, then when my stamp came in I put a stock on it. I can remove the stock at anytime and make it a pistol. The type of buffer tube on a pistol does not matter (there are numerous ATF letters about this) I had an A2 tube on mine while it was a pistol.

When you picked it up from the FFL did they mark it as a rifle or pistol? The type of stock should not matter but when you fill out the paperwork I think it needs to be marked as a pistol.


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[batman4706]

Receivers are marked as "other" on the 4473, because at that time they are not a pistol or a rifle.

 

[Delcorbett]

Like batman4706 said, its neither a pistol or rifle. At least not till it is "barreled". It should have been transfered as an " other". The ATF has said if you build it as a rifle, it cannot go back to pistol, if you build it as a pistol first, it can be interchanged. Arfcom pistol forum should have all the answers you seek, and the determination letters to back it up.

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