IMHO this bullet is not a replacement for modern JHP ammo but is a replacement for the FMJ bullet in a SD role. In any event I am more interested in both the Lehigh Extreme Penetrator and Lehigh Extreme Defender in their ability to defeat soft and hard body armor, to me this is where they can excel, as traditional ammo is useless in this role. With terrorists and criminals using armor more often I think this is the next frontier for ammo, the ability to defeat soft armor AND offer a good degree of stopping performance. I don't think Lehigh needs to reinvent the wheel but move on to the next level, an effective defense against armored BG!

 

I have my doubts that these Lehigh bullets can defeat soft body armor. Get yourself a Tokarev pistol and some Bulgarian ammo in the pink paper packages wrapped in twine or load your own FMJ's as hot as safely possible if you want a vest defeating round. There's also the 5.7x28FN and the 22 TCM.

 

This is good to know and hear, I bought a box of 9mm, .357 Sig and some 10mm of this.

 

You probably have the Xtreme Penetrator, don't think they have this in 10mm yet.
https://www.underwoodammo.com/xtreme-defender/

 

Thanks for the video, that's an impressive wound track for a handgun.

 

They surely do promote their ammo 'eh?

 

The permanent cavity in gel is impressive. I'd need to see what it does in tissue before I fork over that kind of dough.

 

check Paul Harrell channel.

 

I wonder what the permanent cavity is for my CCWload - 9mm CorBon 115gr +p JHP?

 

This guy likes 18" minimum penetration so I guess he's smarter and knows more than the freaking FBI's ballistics teams. And 1440 fps from a Glock 19 and it has "reduced recoil"? Yeah sure. And that has to be pushing +P+ pressures.

I trust tnoutdoor's testing and his test certainly didn't show a 2" wide channel. And with denim it was very minimal. Yes I realize this was Lehigh's, not Underwood's.

 

Again.
That's NOT the same ammo
That's the PENETRATOR.
This is the DEFENDER.

 

If a really lightweight, all-copper 9mm bullet was going to take the world by storm, it probably would've been the Geco Action Safety Slug, also known as the BAT (Blitz Action Trauma) in the US.

In my younger days, when I expected to find magic bullets, I picked up some boxes of it to try. After reading more of the development and reported performance of the bullet, I eventually gave the remaining boxes to a family member who liked to collect odd ammunition.

The BAT/Action Safety load used an 86gr copper bullet loaded to produce 1400+fps.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8006608

This new Xtreme loads sounds like an interesting variation on a ball load, but at a hefty cost.

I think I'll continue to use the modern offerings of the various major maker JHP's produced for LE/defensive use.

 

If a really lightweight, all-copper 9mm bullet was going to take the world by storm, it probably would've been the Geco Action Safety Slug, also known as the BAT (Blitz Action Trauma) in the US.

In my younger days, when I expected to find magic bullets, I picked up some boxes of it to try. After reading more of the development and reported performance of the bullet, I eventually gave the remaining boxes to a family member who liked to collect odd ammunition.

The BAT/Action Safety load used an 86gr copper bullet loaded to produce 1400+fps.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8006608

This new Xtreme loads sounds like an interesting variation on a ball load, but at a hefty cost.

I think I'll continue to use the modern offerings of the various major maker JHP's produced for LE/defensive use.

Do you remember years ago the French Arcane ammo or the Thunderzap ammo, one was brass/copper and
the other was plastic/polymer, both would go over 2000 to 3000 fps in pistols and revolvers.

Both made super wounds and even the plastic/polymer could go through vests when driven over
3000 fps when loaded to its full potential in the 357.

Familiar with THV Arcane ammo?
their 9mm load(from France, no concerns about SAAMI pressures or lawsuits) was 45 grs at 2400 fps, in a 5" barrel. their .45 was 60 grs at 2200 fps. google for RBCD ammo and check out their 9x23 Win load. regular old 1911, and its 60 grs at 2600fps.
http://www.usacarry.com/forums/handgun-discussion/31139-familiar-thv-arcane-ammo.html

http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/THV.htm

http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/articles/58453581/wound-characteristics-38-special-thunderzap

http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4036&hilit=thv

http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8166&hilit=thv

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=421817

http://www.familyfriendsfirearms.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-20225.html

http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4127

http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge/113942-french-arcane-bullets-dean-grennell.html

 

I'm intrigued by the round, but would like to see some more ballistic tests.

 

I stopped the video half way through because it seems more like a promotion than an unbiased ammo test.

Did I miss anything on the back end?

 

Yes it was a painfully obvious red neck infomercial complete with what appeared to be a cooler full of about 10 blocks of gel and only one round of 9mm HST fired for comparison. This guy has lost all credibility with me as far as his tests go. But as I said before there is some value to these rounds, they are rugged powerful rounds especially the ones made by Underwood, that excel at tactical penetration and are more effective than FMJ. Lehigh is traveling down the wrong road trying to promote these as being superior to hollow points which they are not as the 9mm HST in his test looked more impressive than the XD and deep penetration does not impress me!

 

The price of these new rounds is flat breathtaking! Reminds me of the old trophy bonded bear claw, if anybody remembers that hunting bullet??

 

He said he wasn't an expert at ballistic testing and obviously Underwood supplied him and asked him to do it, so yeah, take it with a grain of salt. I assume tnoutdoors and others will be doing tests soon, so we'll see what their results are. I still think it's an interesting round that shows a lot of promise, but I'm no expert.

 

I will have to admit that it started to look interesting when shot at 1777 fps from the 16" barrel Tavor. I think this bullet needs the speed and power it can get from a 357 Mag, 357 Sig or 10mm to be truly effective. I have a G31 with a 6" Lone Wolfe barrel in it and my estimation is that this round through my 6" 357 Sig would be around 1850 fps!

 

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Gelatin Temperature Effect/Effect of Gelatin Block Temperature.html

I think most people know that calibrated ballistic gelatin needs to at ~38°-39°F for bullet testing, the person conducting the Underwood bullet tests was well over this stated temperature during his testing; one cannot leave these gel blocks in direct sunlight and expect credible results.

 

Where and when does it stop for the velocity-for-the-sake-of-velocity advocates?

Like many have stated previously, if the search is for ever increasing (fill in the blank) perhaps one should rethink the caliber instead of the ammo.

And please, GT members, don't take this as a gratuitous bashing of ammo I've never personally shot. It's everyone's personal responsibility to conduct his/her own reliability tests and I certainly will not question anyone's personal decision about the optimum CCW round he/she decides to carry.

 

Velocity makes this type of ammo more effective, the more velocity the more force is used to push the gel outward in the flutes. Its what turns a 38 Special into a 357 Magnum or a .380 into a 9mm. Velocity isn't an abstract obsession it's what makes bullets work.

 

There aren't too many things in life that can't be improved. Time and testing will tell if this is better technology. If it is, I'll buy it.

 

Velocity makes this type of ammo more effective, the more velocity the more force is used to push the gel outward in the flutes. Its what turns a 38 Special into a 357 Magnum or a .380 into a 9mm. Velocity isn't an abstract obsession it's what makes bullets work.

When I begin seeing evidence that boutique ammo has a credible street record comparable to the established 9mm JHP self-defense ammos I may become a believer. Until then I will stick with HST, Tactical Bonded, Golden Saber, and Gold Dot in standard, +P, and +P+ pressures.

The one time I did buy .357sig ammo from a well-known small ammo maker the bullets turned out to be ones not designed for the caliber.

 

When I begin seeing evidence that boutique ammo has a credible street record comparable to the established 9mm JHP self-defense ammos I may become a believer. Until then I will stick with HST, Tactical Bonded, Golden Saber, and Gold Dot in standard, +P, and +P+ pressures.

The one time I did buy .357sig ammo from a well-known small ammo maker the bullets turned out to be ones not designed for the caliber.

Agree I do not think this round equals a good hollow point but is definitely better than a FMJ. My interest in this round is its potential tactical penetration ability, just waiting for someone to test it this way and stop pretending its a hollow point.

 

This guy likes 18" minimum penetration so I guess he's smarter and knows more than the freaking FBI's ballistics teams. And 1440 fps from a Glock 19 and it has "reduced recoil"? Yeah sure. And that has to be pushing +P+ pressures.

I trust tnoutdoor's testing and his test certainly didn't show a 2" wide channel. And with denim it was very minimal. Yes I realize this was Lehigh's, not Underwood's.

He was using the penetrator not the extreme defender. I wish someone would report on the effect on living creatures. For my test in wet pack, with a 357 sig Extreme Defender, it stopped in the back of the third jug, but all of the jugs exploded from the pressure. Rarely does the third jug crack, but this this ammo it came apart.

 

There aren't too many things in life that can't be improved. Time and testing will tell if this is better technology. If it is, I'll buy it.

But someone has to get off of their butt and shoot some living creatures. The 3" in diameter 13" long permanent wound channel from a Extreme Defender in a 357 sig, in undeniable. I have seen it. I could be one of the biggest developments, especially for the military.

 

It could be a lot of things but we need reliable independent testing to find out, one thing for sure the XD has enough velocity to make it interesting!

 

Just got an email from Underwood, they now have it in .40 cal and 10mm.

 

115gr at 1700fps in 10mm. If I had a 10mm, I might be tempted to try em.

 

Interesting both the 357 Sig and 10mm XD have a velocity of 1700 fps and have almost identical sectional densities. The 10mm should be the better performer though because of its size and energy, however I have an equalizer a 6" Lone Wolfe barrel for my G31 which should increase the 357 Sig energy level close to that of the 10mm!

 

Interesting both the 357 Sig and 10mm XD have a velocity of 1700 fps and have almost identical sectional densities. The 10mm should be the better performer though because of its size and energy, however I have an equalizer a 6" Lone Wolfe barrel for my G31 which should increase the 357 Sig energy level close to that of the 10mm!

Oh yeah? Well I have a 6" Lone Wolf barrel for my G20. :smoking:

 

But I'm thinking about ordering a 9" lone Wolfe barrel!

 

Go right ahead, I'm thinking about one of these!

 

Agree I do not think this round equals a good hollow point but is definitely better than a FMJ. My interest in this round is its potential tactical penetration ability, just waiting for someone to test it this way and stop pretending its a hollow point.

About the boutique .357sig ammo with 9mm bullet: The one and only time I did a water jug test I shot three Bitterroot Valley 125-grain Gold Dot rounds and one (unnamed) 147-grain Gold Dot. Bitterroot uses a true .357sig Speer bullet, although both the salesman and the web site state the velocity from a 4" barrel is 1300 fps. The boutique 147-grain Gold Dot was a 9mm bullet with the velocity stated as 1250 fps.

All three BVAC rounds mushroomed perfectly and the jugs were split wide open, with all three rounds recovered in the third jug. The single 147-grain round was also recovered in the third jug and mushroomed, but one of the petals did not fold back completely, which I have no problem with. The three jugs were ripped apart , leading me to suspect that 147-grain .357sig in a bullet designed specifically for caliber may be Thor's Hammer of Instant Annihilation.

 

Well I'm sold on 10mm power as well as Hickock's marksmanship.

The rig he was demonstrating seems to me a great alternative to lugging a high-powered rifle when in grizzly territory.

 

About the boutique .357sig ammo with 9mm bullet: The one and only time I did a water jug test I shot three Bitterroot Valley 125-grain Gold Dot rounds and one (unnamed) 147-grain Gold Dot. Bitterroot uses a true .357sig Speer bullet, although both the salesman and the web site state the velocity from a 4" barrel is 1300 fps. The boutique 147-grain Gold Dot was a 9mm bullet with the velocity stated as 1250 fps.

All three BVAC rounds mushroomed perfectly and the jugs were split wide open, with all three rounds recovered in the third jug. The single 147-grain round was also recovered in the third jug and mushroomed, but one of the petals did not fold back completely, which I have no problem with. The three jugs were ripped apart , leading me to suspect that 147-grain .357sig in a bullet designed specifically for caliber may be Thor's Hammer of Instant Annihilation.

About the boutique .357sig ammo with 9mm bullet: The one and only time I did a water jug test I shot three Bitterroot Valley 125-grain Gold Dot rounds and one (unnamed) 147-grain Gold Dot. Bitterroot uses a true .357sig Speer bullet, although both the salesman and the web site state the velocity from a 4" barrel is 1300 fps. The boutique 147-grain Gold Dot was a 9mm bullet with the velocity stated as 1250 fps.

All three BVAC rounds mushroomed perfectly and the jugs were split wide open, with all three rounds recovered in the third jug. The single 147-grain round was also recovered in the third jug and mushroomed, but one of the petals did not fold back completely, which I have no problem with. The three jugs were ripped apart , leading me to suspect that 147-grain .357sig in a bullet designed specifically for caliber may be Thor's Hammer of Instant Annihilation.

Yes sometimes the obvious has to be stated especially when there aren't that many paying attention. A 140gr 357 Sig has the same sectional density as a 180gr .40 and 230gr .45 but with the added advantage of 300 to 400 fps more velocity! A round that delivers EVERYTHING that is needed for SD, the only problem is that S&B is the only company that offers it and its in fmj not hollow point, but maybe some day that will change, until then there is Underwood!