[hardluk1]

Depends…how good are you? 5 aggressors and 10rds? Good luck

in case anyone didn’t get the memo- group attacks are on the rise and have been for awhile

I guess you don't practice mag swaps during practice drills ! Better start . How about FTF drills .

My first HD firearm to reach for is my daily carry , a lw commander 1911 in 45 filled with 230gr hst with 8 rounds as it sits next to me at night but with a pair of electronic muffs but only a step away is a cylinder bore 12ga with 1 buck with an a ar15 is not far away ! MY wife has a M&P filled with 147gr hst as she likes the recoil of the 147gr better as they feel more pushy than snappy and a 5.5" ar9 pistol with a 30 round mag and a 2lb trigger , green laser /light and dot optic with 124gr hst in it , same electronic muffs too . Fun range gun too .

 

[M&P15T]

its becoming more and more common for criminals to stay and shoot it out instead of just running, It happens surprisingly often when a group breaks in and the homeowner starts shooting, more often than not they'll catch return fire

its not hard to find plenty of articles about it happening. This one the homeowner confronts 4 armed guys in his house, they get into a protracted gunfight. Homeowner has an AR and manages to kill 2 and incapacitate the other 2. All 4 criminals were actively shooting back, and the homeowners daughter was shot.
Homeowner Shoots Four Armed Intruders, Kills Two | Louisiana Concealed Carry and Resources

The fact that all 4 stayed and decided to shoot it out, despite receiving rifle fire in return, is indicative of a growing problem. You see it in LE and civilian side, where armed suspects would rather die in a gunfight than be arrested, even if outnumbered and outgunned.

Another issue is the increasing prevalence of rifles/ar pistols in the commission of crimes. While in Chicago the amount of AK and AR pistols being used was eye opening. I wouldn't want to confront 4 guys with rifles while only armed with a handgun, especially a low cap. like a 1911.

body armor is another trend on the rise, with more and ore criminals wearing body armor having something to poke through a vest is an added bonus

Dude....your imagination is running wild like a hungry Cheetah on the high veld.

The article you linked to does not state that the 4 shooters chose to stay and "shoot it out" with the home owner. It doesn't say that at all. It doesn't even hint at that. Nor does it say anything about an AR15 being used by the home owner. Or that there was a "protracted gun-fight". It does hint that the home owner "maybe he somehow wrestled the gun he used from one of the alleged intruders."

That article reads like some serious ghetto **** between serious ghetto people that know one another. Some sort of gang and/or drugs stuff.

As far as home invasions, there are almost no HD situations that don't arise out of some drugs/gang/general criminal activity stuff between people that know one another. Very little.

 

[8X8]

Agree. Folks who understand the totality of the issues don't really need to debate it much.

Some of us just like to argue with fools.

 

[G29guy06]

I suppose they could all be armed with AR type rifles with 30 rd mags, double clamped.

The moment you refuse to acknowledge that option is the moment you stack the deck against yourself….

what we’re those Ohio murders a couple yrs ago? Whole extended family killed I think.

seth rich, while sloppy, was a target by 2 agents…

 

[G29guy06]

I guess you don't practice mag swaps during practice drills ! Better start . How about FTF drills .

My first HD firearm to reach for is my daily carry , a lw commander 1911 in 45 filled with 230gr hst with 8 rounds as it sits next to me at night but with a pair of electronic muffs but only a step away is a cylinder bore 12ga with 1 buck with an a ar15 is not far away ! MY wife has a M&P filled with 147gr hst as she likes the recoil of the 147gr better as they feel more pushy than snappy and a 5.5" ar9 pistol with a 30 round mag and a 2lb trigger , green laser /light and dot optic with 124gr hst in it , same electronic muffs too . Fun range gun too .

“Mag swaps” must be one of those professional gun fighter terms that I don’t understand….I think you mean Tac Reload.

I would think a “mag swap” is when I yell “LAST MAG!” And someone tosses me a mag…

but what do I know???

and yes, a Tac reload is exactly what I would do after sending rounds down range at a threat, then the “high capacity” mag comes out

 

[G29guy06]

And let me remind people that on here because of “FBI stats” most think that 7rds is just fine, not really a need for a reload….but if there is a reload that makes it what? 13-14rds for 5 targets who have the tactical advantage by having already chosen the time and place and made a decision to attack so surely they’ll stand still for well aimed shots to be received.

 

[G29guy06]

Here are some fun questions: how many M855 rounds does it take to penetrate “bullet resistant” glass? How many rounds does it take to penetrate a plate? Of course the plate will vary based upon rounds being sent. How many pistol rounds does it take to compromise Kevlar? These could be some considerations as to why higher mag capacities could be a good idea

 

[Baldeagle0]

Home defense situation goes much more to the favour of you- as a home owner, than street self defense scenario. You have the advantage, being on your own turf, knowing all parts of the house/apartment. The intruders don't know where they are, they don't know the layout, they don't know how many occupants are in the house, whether they are armed, have a dog, etc.. You can use all that to your advantage. Combine that with good alarm system and a cctw and maybe a guard dog that warns you to equip a gun and electronic ear muffs and you've got nothing to fear. If the intruders aren't hitmen or gangsters who are sent to hurt you, it is most likely they wont even try to fight back but just run. Even crackheads aren't that stupid to go into firefight with a homeowner armed with 12 gauge shotgun or a glock pistol with 100 rds drum.
That's why i don't fear home intruders so much. But i do fear street muggers. They can surprise you, surround you and they can disarm you before you even have the chance to draw a gun. That's why personaly, i don't carry a gun with me. Because i'm afraid it'd make things worse. They could disarm me, then beat the hell out of me or even kill me. Or just steal my precious gun lol. But in my own home, i'm the king and i am prepared 24/7 with all kinds of guns and gadgets.

 

[Nutty Professor 188]

Unsuppressed and inside, they are both so loud they are gonna rattle your soul, and the bad guy's too. Over a certain decibel level (130, maybe?) the human ear can't really differentiate increase in volume, so it's a moot point.

9mm is known for penetration. I have seen testing and conducted some (for choosing department issued ammo) on penetration, mainly on cars, but other stuff as well. 9mm penetrated more than .45. Either caliber is probably gonna over penetrate on most stuff found in a house, including the walls.

I am a fan of firepower. I like lotsa rounds in reserve because you don't really know how it's gonna go. Around here the bad guys like to come into homes at least 4 deep. Smart money says they usually leave upon sight of a homeowner, especially one with a gun, but if they don't I feel a little better starting the engagement with 15+ rounds.

Your best bet is to concentrate on watching your fields of fire.

If you are worried about noise think about getting a suppressor. If that is not an option a Ruger 10/22 or Charger pistol might be considered. I know suggesting the .22LR for self defense is always contentious and I'm not trying to start that debate but if noise is a real worry it is pretty quiet. .22LR can still go through walls and hurt people so backstop is still critical.

I know it sounds silly but you might put some earplugs with your pistol. If you have the wherewithal and time to put them in before you begin your house search it's a possibility. I guy on my squad has some earplugs on a string tied to his AR so he can snatch them off and use them if he has time.

Capping off some pistol rounds indoors is gonna ring your bell but probably wouldn't cause significant lasting damage. An AR (especially a short barrel one) or a shotgun might be a different story but you didn't mention that, just saying.

 

[Baldeagle0]

Unsuppressed and inside, they are both so loud they are gonna rattle your soul, and the bad guy's too. Over a certain decibel level (130, maybe?) the human ear can't really differentiate increase in volume, so it's a moot point.

9mm is known for penetration. I have seen testing and conducted some (for choosing department issued ammo) on penetration, mainly on cars, but other stuff as well. 9mm penetrated more than .45. Either caliber is probably gonna over penetrate on most stuff found in a house, including the walls.

I am a fan of firepower. I like lotsa rounds in reserve because you don't really know how it's gonna go. Around here the bad guys like to come into homes at least 4 deep. Smart money says they usually leave upon sight of a homeowner, especially one with a gun, but if they don't I feel a little better starting the engagement with 15+ rounds.

Your best bet is to concentrate on watching your fields of fire.

If you are worried about noise think about getting a suppressor. If that is not an option a Ruger 10/22 or Charger pistol might be considered. I know suggesting the .22LR for self defense is always contentious and I'm not trying to start that debate but if noise is a real worry it is pretty quiet. .22LR can still go through walls and hurt people so backstop is still critical.

I know it sounds silly but you might put some earplugs with your pistol. If you have the wherewithal and time to put them in before you begin your house search it's a possibility. I guy on my squad has some earplugs on a string tied to his AR so he can snatch them off and use them if he has time.

Capping off some pistol rounds indoors is gonna ring your bell but probably wouldn't cause significant lasting damage. An AR (especially a short barrel one) or a shotgun might be a different story but you didn't mention that, just saying.

I don't know about that about that how a human ear can't differentiate anything over 130 db. I keep reading this everywhere, but in practice i think it can be differentiated. How come i can easily shoot 9mm and .45 outdoors without any ears or plugs for as ling as 15 minutes and feel no ringing in ears after, but when i foolishly shot a round of .44 magnum (unported, 6" bbl) without ear protection, my ears were dead for days? Personally, i can tell a noticeable difference between these calibers' sounds.

 

[G29guy06]

I don't know about that about that how a human ear can't differentiate anything over 130 db. I keep reading this everywhere, but in practice i think it can be differentiated. How come i can easily shoot 9mm and .45 outdoors without any ears or plugs for as ling as 15 minutes and feel no ringing in ears after, but when i foolishly shot a round of .44 magnum (unported, 6" bbl) without ear protection, my ears were dead for days? Personally, i can tell a noticeable difference between these calibers' sounds.

There’s no real difference when shooting indoors in a place that is not made for noise reduction and designed to stop rounds from going through walls. Is there a difference to potential damage or injury to the ears? Technically yes…

but at the end of the day the choice usually is between having ears hurt or being dead if/ when it comes to discharging a round in a domicile. Now I always have ear pro ready and in every bag I carry, doesn’t mean I’ll be able to put them on though

 

[njl]

As is almost always the case, "it depends". In factory ammo, any 9mm <147gr is likely to be supersonic, and so in addition to the "bang" of the gun powder, you have a sonic boom right in front of you. I can tell you from personal (stupid) experience (forgetting to put on my ear muffs before firing a shot), 115gr Blazer is painful and will have your ears ringing for hours. My 147gr handload doing about 900fps was just "damn! That was loud." Either one indoors would be worse, with the sound bouncing off walls/ceiling and back at you. Both my errors were at outdoor ranges.

 

[MarkCO]

Some of us just like to argue with fools.

I don't think courteous argument is ever a bad thing. Even long held beliefs need to be reviewed and refreshed. There is a guy (on another forum) who shot benchrest like 40 years ago and still fancies himself the expert on all things rifle. He fails to understand the changes in technology, equipment and components have made what little he knew, irrelevant to today. It does seem to ring true though, that the more we know, the more we see there is to learn and the less likely to engage the fools/ignorant opinions. Like the path turns into an 8 lane. It is really hard to engage the left lane squatter beneficially...just pass them on the right.

 

[sombunya]

The moment you refuse to acknowledge that option is the moment you stack the deck against yourself….

what we’re those Ohio murders a couple yrs ago? Whole extended family killed I think.

seth rich, while sloppy, was a target by 2 agents…

If I have "agents" out to kill me, my chances of surviving that one are slim at best, 7 rd mag or 17. Liddy's advice about performing headshots on armed ATF agents was colorful but not real practical, I think. The Ohio murders you talk about are the pot farm, I think? I don't see myself getting wrapped up in something like that any time soon.

There is no end to the arguments people can and will make to justify almost anything. I don't keep high cap mags nearby so I can perform tactical reloads in the middle of the night against a gang of home invaders. I've had a good home security system for nearly 30 years and I've armed it overnight while I sleep probably less than 5 times. It's there to watch my home while I'm away. I walk my dog almost every nkght and go through certain areas that my wife or daughter would certainly avoid alone. I don't carry my 15 rd model 59, I carry a 7 rd Shield. I will lay odds that I'll make it through this life without having to fend off a trained gang of home invaders.

 

[enblock]

He's neither joking nor wrong. It's physics. And whether you chose to agree or not, physics can't be argued with.

Drop 9MM to sub-sonic, and you lose a lot of energy. And you also lose the velocity that ensures good JHP expansion, so it's a double negative. Certain rounds are velocity-dependent at their core. 9mm is one of those rounds.

ummmm dude, its not 1987 anymore.

147gr is quite possibly the most common 9mm bullet weight used by LE agencies. The 147gr HST, Ranger T, Gold Dot, and so on and so forth are excellent performers

there's a reason why the secret service, border patrol, federal air Marshalls, and FBI, as well as several major departments, such as LAPD, HPD, St. Louis PD, and so on all issue 147gr 9mm JHPs

With modern bullet designs subsonic loads have no issue expanding. The 230gr 45acp is subsonic as well. does that mean that it just bounces off people?

Velocity (and energy) =/= better terminal performance

 

[G29guy06]

Yes, and typically after the first return shot the whole group starts running. Go check out Active Self Protection.

In fact, I’ve probably seen 100 gunfights on there and I don’t know if I’ve ever seen one where the shooter wound up having to actively engage more than 1 target. Unless he was so fast as to incapacitate more than one before they could run. The others get away before he’s done with the first.

If you’re engaging five people determined to kill you, by yourself, or even with your spouse, you’re ****ed anyway.

All these people on gun forums who think they are going to have some John Wick style shootout crack me up.

Even if you are John Wick… even John Wick reloads. Lol

So you’ve seen 100s of gun fights on…..the internet? Enlightening.

you know what I like about the internet? That you’re not an expert so no one else is, except the expert of course, but no one is an expert….

of course John Wicke reloads(your example not mine). I think there’s a lot you’re missing (and others) from A-Z. I’m sure some expert will be along to help you out though. Clearly it ain’t me. I don’t know nothin….and I don’t claim to be an expert, but I know a lot more than most people typing on keyboards it would appear..

 

[G29guy06]

If I have "agents" out to kill me, my chances of surviving that one are slim at best, 7 rd mag or 17. Liddy's advice about performing headshots on armed ATF agents was colorful but not real practical, I think. The Ohio murders you talk about are the pot farm, I think? I don't see myself getting wrapped up in something like that any time soon.

There is no end to the arguments people can and will make to justify almost anything. I don't keep high cap mags nearby so I can perform tactical reloads in the middle of the night against a gang of home invaders. I've had a good home security system for nearly 30 years and I've armed it overnight while I sleep probably less than 5 times. It's there to watch my home while I'm away. I walk my dog almost every nkght and go through certain areas that my wife or daughter would certainly avoid alone. I don't carry my 15 rd model 59, I carry a 7 rd Shield. I will lay odds that I'll make it through this life without having to fend off a trained gang of home invaders.

All you gotta do to have “agents” out to get you is talk about how you want all the votes in the democrat party to be equal, that each voter has an equal say and transparency to go with that. That’s good enough to get you dead. Ask Seth Rich, once again.

I love people who are so above everyone else that a drug crime or drug violence absolutely can’t come at them. Because they’re so much better than everyone else. I’m kinda thinking about dead Mormons in Mexico as one example…another one might be you call the cops on some asshat that pissed you off on the road and when the cops initiate a traffic stop they realize they’ve pulled over a drug shipment….and your phone number is on record in ECC (or whatever the local area calls dispatch)

 

[TheDreadnought]

So you’ve seen 100s of gun fights on…..the internet? Enlightening.

you know what I like about the internet? That you’re not an expert so no one else is, except the expert of course, but no one is an expert….

of course John Wicke reloads(your example not mine). I think there’s a lot you’re missing (and others) from A-Z. I’m sure some expert will be along to help you out though. Clearly it ain’t me. I don’t know nothin….and I don’t claim to be an expert, but I know a lot more than most people typing on keyboards it would appear..

Seeing video of actual gunfights and how they play out is an important training tool. If you don’t believe that, you’re a moron.

 

[Dontgetdead]

This is getting a bit off topic, but following some of the discussion in the thread so ... Watch the video in the link, decide for yourself if having some extra capacity on hand makes sense. In our area (a very nice mostly upper middle class neighborhood) we have had a string of people checking car doors. They then steal anything of value especially looking for guns (they get more than you'd guess). They also take garage door openers. The crew in the video come back armed with the garage door opener and access the house or at least the garage. The guy showing his ar pistol to the camera convinced me to change my bump in the night gun to an ar9 pistol with red dot and light. If they come into my house they can have whatever they can carry from the main floor and basement. Coming up my stairwell would be where I'd draw the line.

At any rate, my least concern in such case is about how loud it gets. I won't be drinking around with ear protection, I want my senses keen, unimpeded. Not trying to determine how accurate the location of sounds from a set of electronic cans is.
Many who've had to shoot in such situations experience audio exclusion. Under such stress you almost don't notice the high decibel noise. Your brain seems to calibrate your hearing. I'm not saying your hearing won't be damaged, just that it isn't really the thing you need to worry about.

Honestly, 9mm .45 AARP 12 gauge who cares? Bring enough to share in a format you can shoot. Have a plan to shoot in a direction you know where your rounds will go without hitting your own friendlies. That's about the best you can do.

https://www.kmov.com/news/suspect-r...-during-south-county-break-in/article_388768c6-24a4-11ec-bac3-9b486683e05e.html

 

[G29guy06]

Seeing video of actual gunfights and how they play out is an important training tool. If you don’t believe that, you’re a moron.

There was a point that I was making, apparently you missed it. I think now is a good time to go back to doing whatever it is that you’re good at (aside from screwing up people’s quest for knowledge).