[fastbolt]

... And how the Sig CEO Rob Cohen pled guilty to arms trafficking and is a felon. Is that true?
...

SIG Sauer CEO Avoids Jail Time For Role in Illegal Arms Shipment

Court officials in Germany announced Wednesday that Ron Cohen, CEO of Newington-based gun maker SIG Sauer, will avoid jail time for his role in an illegal…

www.nhpr.org

Germany: Ex-execs make court deal over Colombia gun exports

BERLIN (AP) — Three former executives at German gun-maker Sig Sauer, including one who became CEO of a sister company in the United States, reached a deal with prosecutors over allegations they illegally exported arms to Colombia and likely won't...

www.seattletimes.com

Does it matter in the greater picture, though?

 

[fastbolt]

FWIW, I remember when S&W decided to transition to MIM. I was told in one of the armorer classes that it was an expensive endeavor at the beginning.

First of all, stainless MIM not only costs more (per pound) than making forged stainless, but the molds were very expensive. It was said that the company decided to use domestic MIM houses so they could better keep an eye on QC, and they wanted to own the molds used to make the parts. One of the guys said it was important to own their MIM molds so they could have more control over the end products.

MIM has been used for decades to make very precise parts. Like with any other process, though, the quality of the materials used and the manufacturing tells the tale.

FWIW, as a firearms instructor and armorer for a fair number of years, I've seen my fair share of bad quality cast and forged parts. More than I've seen bad quality MIM, comes to that, and I started using MIM parts about '98.

 

[fastbolt]

And pretty much everyone else isn't having a developing country borderline 3rd world) that has a bad manufacturing reputation to make their MIM parts while charging a premium price. ...

Did you know that India was making pure iron and steel as long ago as 400BC?

India is the 2nd largest steel producer in the world (behind China).

India only nation among top 5 to see growth in steel production

India is the only top five steel producing nation to see growth in production in April, while China, Japan, and the United States experienced a decline. India's steel production rose by 3.6% in April, with a total of 49.5 million tonnes produced from January-April this year.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Steel swords made of Indian steel were prized possessions among older nations.

 

[fastbolt]

It’s not the ability to make it but to keep standards. The airline industry shys away from foreign parts because of counterfeiting less quality parts for better quality is rampant overseas

Granted, QC is always a big concern, no matter where something is being manufactured. Having something manufactured domestically is no guarantee of automatic quality, but random inspection & testing by the American end user/company is more easily done here than in an overseas facility.

That was one of the reasons explained to me by one of the gun companies when they decided to restrict their choice of MIM houses used to those located domestically. Of course, that was quite a few years ago, and I have no idea if they still adhere to that business decision.

 

[fastbolt]

Nevermind; I found it. Lot of "If", "May" and "Could" in his "conclusions". Fails Daubert all day and twice on Sunday.

I looked for Peter Villani on the interwebs. If he is a practicing forensic engineer, he is keeping it a secret.

Well, it's not like the art of equivocation is an unknown thing among 'expert witnesses' testifying and offering their opinions in court cases.

 

[fastbolt]

Depending upon how you mean it, of course; that's why there's experts on both sides.

Sure, it's not like you can't find instances of 'dueling expert witnesses' testifying in some cases.

That's why jurors (in cases which go before juries) are left to be the ones who have the ability to determine the credibility of any witnesses, including expert witnesses.

 

[fastbolt]

Something interesting happened today here in Washington. Today the Washington state criminal justice training center (it runs the state academy [which every officer is required to attend] and issues commissions, in service training, establishes standards and such) issued a memo that the Sig 320 is prohibited from being on campus or from attending any training sessions. A lot of agencies issue Sig 320s and don't allow any others. That means none of their recruits will be able to attend the academy at the moment. Apparently this is due to a "pre mature discharge" during an academy session.

I'm curious what the investigation will show when done.

You'd think SIG (and the holster companies) would already be parachuting people into the state academy range to get a handle on what caused this incident, and assist with the investigation.

Let's hope it wasn't an over-reaction to something that turns out to be a holster problem, and/or a cadet shooter problem. Makes you wonder if the decision-maker behind this new policy had already formed an opinion.

You know how knees can jerk for the damnedest reasons.

 

[fastbolt]

Never under-estimate the ability of someone behind a desk, removed from the actual hands-on experience, to take the opportunity to make a gargantuan mountain out of a mole hill. At least it will generate some attention. Whether it proves unfavorable to the gun company or the academy admin remains to be seen.

 

[fastbolt]

... And even if they determined it was the holster, how would they know which holsters would prevent this. ...

Depends if the holster that was involved was identified and determined (with the help of designers/production people from the holster company) as being out-of-spec compared to other holsters in-service at the agency. Did that even happen, though?

I didn't keep track of it, but I knew of a major state agency who had an officer experience an unintentional discharge of a holstered duty weapon (not SIG), when the officer bent over during briefing to pick up some other gear. Proven design duty weapon. I was told the agency's smith's (that have gunsmiths), the gun company and the holster company were investigating the incident, including the condition of the specific weapon and holster. Last I heard, nothing had become lodged inside the holster, and the weapon was in normal, good condition. I was told the focus of the investigation was narrowing down to the specific holster, and how it may not have been within normal spec due to either a manufacturing problem damage, etc.

While I didn't bother to keep up on the outcome, it was determined early in the investigation that the officer was not at fault, and both the issued weapon and the issued holster design were not, themselves, at fault. Respectable record of satisfactory and safe use of both when they were in normal, as intended and manufactured spec.

Personally, this is the sort of situation where I, as a former armorer and trainer, would've asked, and welcomed, the presence and attention of the manufacturers of weapons, holsters and ammunition to lend their expertise to all facets of an investigation. If an incident was caused by an issued user/owner, and not any of the gear, then that's something that may be determined by the parallel agency investigation.

 

[fastbolt]

I made some phone calls. Incident was witnessed by multiple instructors. Nothing on the trigger. Gun was out and was smacked on the rear of the slide and discharged. Unknown if this gun is a post update one.

Does the state academy have armorers on-staff? Was the gun owned by the cadet's agency, or by the cadet as an approved duty weapon? The cadet's agency has to deal with any suspected gun issues by using their own armorer(s)?

Hopefully, somebody called and invited SIG to the after party.

Having seen how having a number of instructors observing folks on a hot firing line may be looking, but not seeing something there is to see at a critical moment (like an unexpected BANG), I'd hope the instructors are frank with themselves for what they may, or may not, have seen when surprised by the shot.

It likely wouldn't be the first time a shooter was under mild range stress, and while smacking the rear of a recalcitrant slide to make it go into battery under some time constraint, may have failed to maintain attention to their trigger finger when they clenched their gun hand against the smacking technique. Not hard to imagine an instructor or three distracted by watching the holdup in the drill, and be looking at the shooter's slide smack instead of the trigger finger's specific position and actions.

Wouldn't it be great if there was sufficiently detailed video done of such academy range sessions?

 

[fastbolt]

Apparently several instructors were around this one student as he was working the gun. I was told it was a gen 1 gun, unknown if it had the upgrade. I also don't know if sig was contacted. The academy does not provide weapons they must be sent with the students by the agency.

That sounds like the student was one of those 'instructor intensive' guys. If so, it would make sense for there to have been enough deliberate eyes on him for any manipulative faux pas to have observed (i.e. trigger press).

If it was among the first gen1 320's, and hadn't had the voluntary upgrade, then it would make sense that SIG (if contacted) could readily identify the serial number as being among the first guns shipped. (I thought I read somewhere like SIG had said there were upwards of 500K 320's in commercial circulation before they'd identified they needed to offer a voluntary upgrade.)

If this student had provided his own gun and it's pre-upgrade, perhaps his sponsoring agency didn't have an inspection requirement and a SIG 320 armorer check the gun for any needed updates? Does WA state recognize and allow 'unaffiliated cadets' to put themselves through the academy, like CA? If so, it wouldn't be a surprise if the student owned an early 320 and didn't know (or care?) about the update?

Once all the drama is resolved ... if this is a case of a pre-update 320 exhibiting an issue related to the necessity for the need of the voluntary upgrade/update, then perhaps the academy can retract their prohibition, and require any 320's to be current with any factory recommended production and updates for older models?

Of course, if it turns out to be a of the gun having had the issue and it's a current production gun (post-update), then that's a horse of a different color, and everyone can get out the popcorn.

 

[fastbolt]

Every recruit must have a sponsoring agency here.

We are all waiting to see what the investigation reveals. Every single person I've talked to says that administrator jumped the gun and several agencies are pissed off about his directive

If the 320 was a personally-owned gun, I'd not rule out the possibility of any owner improvement/modification, either.

I can't count the times we've refused to approve a weapon because it was exhibiting functioning issues ... after having been improved/modified by the owner.

Of course, there are some aftermarket/gunsmithing services that are said to keep critical functioning aspects within factory specs, especially if the person doing the work (or designing the parts) once worked at a particular gun company and understands the importance of why factory specs are created. When you start to see some gun company folks come to your range, and they have some non-factory parts in their guns, made by someone who used to work at their company, and they trust the parts to keep their guns within critical factory specs and functioning safely?

 

[fastbolt]

The new video shows the proof . CT scans of a gun in question , report from the army etc.
The scans show casting imperfections with the parts that can cause them to slip. Pictures of the scans with comparisons to properly made parts . Start around page 20.

So, the (quoted) opinion ...

Ultimately, it is SIG’s and its subcontractor’s poor manufacturing practices and SIG’s lax quality control that is causing sloppily finished components, which are key to the gun’s safety mechanisms, to malfunction.

So, NOT the design, but (opinion and speculation) that it's rather possible poor execution of some aspect of the manufacturing process, at some point, and/or QC program?

Is the Army still using theirs?

Well, there were the MIM strikers reported to have failed in the early 365's, made by an offshore vendor. A friend of mine had his 365 striker break at about 350 rounds into an outside training class. Fortunately, he'd taken a backup pistol, since the 365 was NIB at that point and he'd not had the opportunity to run it hard for a few hundred rounds to confirm function.

 

[fastbolt]

Here are two short news channel clips interviewing Jeff Bagnell, a lawyer representing P320 discharge clients, and Peter Villani, a SIG Sauer certified expert, discussing his opinion.
Popular handgun may have dangerous flaw: 5 Investigates

Popular handgun may have dangerous flaw: 5 Investigates

5 Investigates reviewed court records and media accounts and found 36 reports of Sig Sauer P320 handguns firing without a trigger pull since 2016.

www.wcvb.com

Popular handgun appears to hand serious flaw: 5 Investigates

Popular handgun appears to hand serious flaw: 5 Investigates

At times, it fires on its own, without the trigger being pulled.

www.wcvb.com

This is posted just for sharing purposes.

The court made a couple interesting decisions on the 2 expert witnesses in a case ...

However, the judge did limit Villani’s opinion to his conclusions based on his testing, finding that he did not have any relevant experience about identifying the underlying cause of the defects he identified or about how they might be fixed.

But the judge again disagreed. “Hicks is a mechanical engineer with substantial experience, and he specializes in the technicalities of product performance and failure,” wrote McCafferty. “Accordingly, his training and experience provide a basis for expertise in the mechanical workings of a product, including a gun.”

More in the link ... Gunmaker Sig Sauer Loses Bid to Block New Hampshire Liability Suit Over Pistol Misfire

 

[fastbolt]

Not sure if you realize, these articles are from 2020, 2021, and 2022 respectively. Nothing new listed in these that hasn't already been discussed previously.





TXPO

Just brought it up because of the recent mention in the previous post of the name of someone presented as an expert witness, and how the court limited his testimony.

People often don't seem to realize that 'expert witness testimony' isn't some pronouncement from above chiseled in stone, and that the preponderance of evidence still holds sway.

Nobody has really come forward (from my casual looking at posts and news articles) with some 'smoking SIG' that definitively shows some hidden design problem. A buddy of mine who is a 320 armorer (and for several other makes/models), and who has spoken extensively with SIG folks about this ongoing topic, and who has been monitoring a few hundred 320's issued at his agency, yawns whenever I ask him about it. They've been running their 320's hard for the last few years and are still pleased with them, and have had no problems with them.

Tempest/teapot topic.

Meanwhile, the beat goes on.

Last time I heard about a state agency's M&P40 discharge, that occurred when an officer bent over to pick up his posse bag in briefing (holstered weapon not touched), it had reportedly been narrowed down to a possible problem with the particular holster. Nobody was injured, just startled, and the agency smiths and factory folks who examined the weapon found it in normal working condition. I was told no foreign object was found in the holster.

It's not like agencies have something like this happen and blow it off. Sure, when someone is injured the individual (or their family) may sometimes look at making a claim beyond a WC case.

On the other hand, it's not unknown for someone who experienced a ND due to mishandling (or the modification of a weapon or holster; the introduction of uniform/clothing into a holster; adding a WML that may not be correct for the holster being used; etc) to point at everything other than themselves, too. The beat goes on ...

 

[fastbolt]

Meanwhile, my former agency has been running one of the compact 320's for going on 4 years, I think, and they shoot the snot out of them, including using them for UTM training (dye-marking training system). Only a little over three hundred in-service, last I was told, but they've had zero problems and like them just fine. Proper attention is given to the holster system and the fit of the weapon, including the usual inspections, training, etc.

 

[fastbolt]

If listed numbers are correct, from 2014 through 2023 SIG manufactured and sold more than 2.5 million 320's.

FWIW, S&W sold a million units of their first Shield 9/40 series in a little more than a year of the gun being released. They'd passed the 3 million units sold point fairly quickly. The Shield broke every internal company sales numbers of any handguns since they started keeping records. Now, it's unsurprising that the demand for the small & smaller personal defense pistols might be attracting more interest (outside of LE/Gov) than full-size pistols.

From SIG's website:

NEWINGTON, N.H., (January 31, 2024) - SIG SAUER is pleased to announce the SIG P365 and SIG P320 were the #1 and #2 selling product across all firearms in 2023 to achieve the ranking of most popular and sought after handguns in America.

SIG SAUER P365 & P320 Ranked Most Popular Handguns in America

SIG SAUER is pleased to announce the SIG P365 and SIG P320 were the best-selling products across all firearms in 2023 to become the most popular handguns in America.

www.sigsauer.com

The 365 is a strong seller, and apparently eclipsed the 320 in that regard.

 

[fastbolt]

Still waiting for the 'smoking gun' case to come along, where someone can conclusively recreate the sort of 'problem' some detractors are alleging is occurring.

 

[fastbolt]

Do you mean like the Glock phase 3 malfunction? It took over shooting 20,000 Glocks at one range over a period of time to do that. How would one recreate it safely under observable conditions? Even if everything suspected as to the cause of the discharges are true , it would be something like a 1 in 10,000 chance (a guess- could be greater or less) of it happening . All we are saying is “it is something is happening “
Many of us feel the smoking gun has been caught on video already like Montville PD or even the new video I posted.
What are your thoughts on the new videos I posted?

A puzzling type of stoppage is a different thing in tracking down than an unintentional discharge, especially since it may involve shooter/user maintenance practices, holster condition and the potential for 'environmental factors' to surface (interfering with holster/weapon interaction).

Video bloggers claiming something happened is at best second hand witness testimony, and we know how potentially inaccurate (and potentially biased, even if unintentionally) witness testimony can be.

This is why it's critical for all the physical evidence to be examined - weapons and holsters - by the best and most familiar subject matter experts with the gear available, which typically means the gun and holster makers. Sure, agency armorers and outside/3rd party gunsmiths may conduct their own examinations and form opinions, but that also introduces the potential for the gear to no longer be in the same condition as when the incidents had just occurred.

In any duty weapon/gear-related problem where an agency doesn't request (or allow?) manufacturer(s) response and involvement in carefully investigating the gear, to try and determine causes(s), I'd have to wonder how they expect to definitively figure out what caused the problem? The suspicious former cop part of me would also wonder whether an agency might be hoping to cover a possible training and/or policy issue, a user-issue (agency embarrassment) or hope to try and mitigate a potential exposure to liability in a civil action.

Until an actual 'smoking gun' is identified and can be held up to strong light, and the alleged 'problem' can be clearly identified and reproduced at will, we're still wandering around in the realm of speculation and conjecture.

Show me the money.

BTW, I hope to hear that you're continuing to recover and be on the mend. My year of surgery and chemo were not the easiest things I've ever done.

 

[fastbolt]

...
I will note a comparison between the Pasco County Sheriff's Office and the Montville PD. In the case of PCSO, three different professional entities examined the pistol, scene and circumstances of the ND. They were PCSO qualified Sig armorers, FDLE qualified Sig armorers and Sig technicians. The result of this investigation revealed that the pistol was not at fault. It also revealed the Deputy lied about the circumstances of the incident (as caught on camera), his admission and his termination. This investigation was thorough and took several months to complete. Good investigations simply take time. By contrast, the Montville PD did not allow any outside entity to examine the pistol, scene or circumstances of the discharge. They refused Sig's request to examine the pistol, scene and circumstances. They did not request their state LE agency to examine the pistol, scene or circumstances of the discharge. The 'investigation' was concluded in less than 3 days and as far as I know there were no published findings of the result of the alleged investigation.
...

Those 2 examples illustrate how differences in investigations can really matter.