[GMAN12]

I use a lot of FN for shooting paper, they make nice holes in the target, making it much easier to see "hits" Holes look like the were paper punched.

 

[fredj338]

I can't fuss about your statement. You obviously are an experienced 1911 guy who has carefully tested your pistols for reliability. I can't help but wonder, though, if your .45s have been tweaked a little to achieve near perfection or if you own high-end guns that are hand-fitted and carefully tested before delivery.

I used to hang out at the 1911 forum where nearly everyone loved 'em, carried 'em and frequently fussed about finding the 'right' ammo to achieve high-level reliability. The reliability concern is one reason I bought a Les Baer early in my 1911 experience.

I love the 1911 platform. I love shooting them, but I don't carry one for self defense. I should have made that clear early on. Of all the guns I've owned, nothing has been as fun or felt so natural in my hand. Plus, I grew up when 1911s were the king of autoloaders, and I have a special affinity for historic US military weapons.

Why I call bs on most 1911 naysayers. All my 1911s are stock but one. All are off the shelf lower end models; Springfield, Colt, S&W, all run 100%. The only thing done to them is trigger job if needed to get to 4-4.5# range, grip tape, done. 1000s of rds in competition & training classes without an ammo related malfunction. I see more malfunctions in glocks than I have ever had with the 1911. Start messing with parts, you'll get failures. Use a $8 mag, you'll have failures.
One of my fav ccw is a stock 1911pd. Slim, ltwt, 100% reliable. The only thing I've done to it was grip tape & a bobtail conversion, which you can now buy stock, stock trigger, a joy to carry all day iwb.

 

[SCmasterblaster]

I use wide flat-point SWCs in my two M1911A1s for bowling-pin shooting at the Chester NH and Country Pond, NH gun clubs. They bite into the pins better.

 

[fredj338]

I use wide flat-point SWCs in my two M1911A1s for bowling-pin shooting at the Chester NH and Country Pond, NH gun clubs. They bite into the pins better.

Oh yeah. The lee 200gr fp is terrific pin smacked & you don't have to run it at max either. At a sedate 900fps, it blows pins off the table & followup shots are very fast. Sub 4sec runs are pretty routine.

 

[SCmasterblaster]

Oh yeah. The lee 200gr fp is terrific pin smacked & you don't have to run it at max either. At a sedate 900fps, it blows pins off the table & followup shots are very fast. Sub 4sec runs are pretty routine.

I use 255gr SWCs at 850 FPS. Little deadwood.

 

[SterlingArcher]

Under the ballistic discussion here is testing of

vs

vs

available here

Yes, it's a .380 but the concepts are the same. I was surprised by the results.

 

[Lindenwood]

His obsession with the 18" maximum penetration suggests an incomplete understanding of the reasoning behind that 12-18" standard.

The 12-18" standard was derived from observations that HPs from service calibers that penetrated beyond 18" almost universally did so only when failing to expand. Expanded HPs create a lot of drag and only very powerful calibers can drive heavy bullets fast enough for the bullets to expand and exceed this standard. Conversely, service calibers with reliably-expanding loads are almost universally incapable of this.

Sure, one can still say penetration beyond 18" can perhaps represent wasted energy. Still, it is estimated that exiting skin is the rough equivalent of 4" of tissue penetration. So, passing through an outstretched arm (that is not contacting the body) takes that 16" down to 12", and add a leather jacket to a big guy and we are back down to nominally "under-penetrating."

Nothing against his assessment that the XP was probably the best overall performer. But calling 16" of penetration from a non-expanding bullet "ideal," and 19" from the same bullet "disappointing," is a little narrow.

Long story short, there are a lot more cases of folks getting hurt or killed because their bullets failed to penetrate than have been hurt or killed because their bullets were otherwise well-placed but did not do enough tissue damage.

Finally, I would strongly expect that a true WFN (a meplat of, say, .27" minimum, vs .22" of the tested FP--my wife has those exact bullets sitting in her gun right now) would have at least match the observed performance of those XPs.

 

[fredj338]

I use 255gr SWCs at 850 FPS. Little deadwood.

Yeah that works too.

 

[SterlingArcher]

His obsession with the 18" maximum penetration suggests an incomplete understanding of the reasoning behind that 12-18" standard.

If you watch some of his videos you'll see he pretty religiously follows the 'FBI protocol' and stays within those overall limits. While I may not always agree with his personal opinion he does do a good job of keeping it numbers based and consistent across tests.

 

[TheDreadnought]

Yeah I disagree with the 18" rule. Missing the target altogether is a MUCH bigger problem than the myth of over penetration. I'm sure many more people (about 3,000) are seriously injured or die due to lightning strikes than due to bullets that over penetrated their intended targets.

Getting enough penetration and good expansion are really all you should concern yourself with.

 

[gooffeyguy]

Getting enough penetration and good expansion are really all you should concern yourself with.

My wife tells me the same thing...lol

 

[DAVIDF]

So I noticed that Freedom Munitions is now selling 225 grain flat nosed .45 ACP ammo. Apparently its selling quite well as its completely sold out.

What is the advantage/thinking behind this round?

The purpose is to cut a cleaner hole through a paper target while still feeding more reliable than a full wadcutter. Has nothing to do with wounding potential regarding why this is manufactured. In some loads, such as Hornady's 9mm fmj 135gr, is to also simulate the bullet shape of an expanding load and therefore have the same reliabilility tests.

 

[Glock 23 Nutter]

A flat nose bullet can do a lot of damage while ensuring good penetration.

I carry Sellier & Bellot 140-grain .357sig rounds when I venture into the woods, with a backup magazine of Hornady 147-grain XTP.

I imagine a .45ACP flat nose round would be formidable.

I carry the same in my G23.4/ 5.3" LWD .357 Sig Bbl. Woods configuration... except reversed. 147 gr. XTP backed by 140 gr. S&B.

Buffalo Bore loads a 230 grain flat point +P 45 ACP designed for protection when in the woods. Flat points are known to have the ability to penetrate straighter than a round nose. The older I get the more I am happy with standard 230 grain hardball but the flat points do have some merit.

I got some Government over-run CCI Speer Lawman .45 ACP 230 Grain +P Flat-Nose TMJ (54302) Ammo as a Woods round for my G36.




Nutter

 

[fredj338]

The purpose is to cut a cleaner hole through a paper target while still feeding more reliable than a full wadcutter. Has nothing to do with wounding potential regarding why this is manufactured. In some loads, such as Hornady's 9mm fmj 135gr, is to also simulate the bullet shape of an expanding load and therefore have the same reliabilility tests.

Except it does enhance terminal performance. It only punches a slightly better hole than rnfmj.

 

[Dave Lively]

Except it does enhance terminal performance. It only punches a slightly better hole than rnfmj.

That must depend on the bullet and paper. When I shoot 147 grain flat nose 9mm they produce a much cleaner hole in paper than round nose bullets do.

 

[29568]

You would be surprised.

Indeed. I have a Colt 1908 that just does not like flat point .380's. And this gun is in excellent condition.

 

[gatorboy]

Shorter bullet length for same weight. Look at 9x21 ammo compared to 9x19. Also more room for powder in the case. The two main reasons I do not like 9x19 are the tapered cases and the 'pointy' bullets. I would feel much better with a 9x21 and 125 gr. GD's than 9x19 with 124 gr. GD's. They make larger holes immediately and are already closer to final expansion. They also deflect less on angled shots and better through windshields. Speer started making truncated 230 Lawman as well as the ball they always had. The 200, 200+P and 185 were always truncated. That's why the GAP uses truncated and works best with 200's but a wide meplat, shallow HP will work also.

 

[fredj338]

That must depend on the bullet and paper. When I shoot 147 grain flat nose 9mm they produce a much cleaner hole in paper than round nose bullets do.

YEs, it will punch the meplat dia, but unless the bullet has a full caliber cutting shoulder, like a swc, it's only slightly better than RN imo for paper. Any flat point is better than a RN in terminal performance. Even a small flat point can yield measurably more tissue damage.

 

[DAVIDF]

Except it does enhance terminal performance. It only punches a slightly better hole than rnfmj.

It can enhance terminal performance just as a full wadcutter can, but that is not why Freedom Munitions is manufacturing this particular load. They are manufacturing it as a training load and flat nosed bullets do punch a much cleaner hole when a paper target is hanging loose like at the indoor range my wife and I use. Round nose tear holes like they have yawed when the paper target isn't backed with cardboard.

 

[happie2shoot]

Any one that has shot animals with WFNs and LFN knows the value of the FP, meplat,
and the faster you shoot them the bigger the hole