Purpose of flat nose ammo?

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by TheDreadnought, Sep 3, 2015.

  1. TheDreadnought

    TheDreadnought

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    So I noticed that Freedom Munitions is now selling 225 grain flat nosed .45 ACP ammo. Apparently its selling quite well as its completely sold out.

    What is the advantage/thinking behind this round?
     
  2. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Energy transfer & tissue disruption. A RN slides thru tissue, pushes organs out of the way, generally a poor choice for anything but shooting thru barriers. A flat point or meplat, crushes & tears tissue, creates a larger non sealing hole thru the target. More damage, bigger hole, greater blood loss, sooner end to the fight. If you must carry non expanding bullets, a large lead flat point is your best bet.
     

  3. happie2shoot

    happie2shoot

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  4. ChiefWPD

    ChiefWPD

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    +1 I use Buffalo Bore full wad-cutter .38s (150 grain hard cast) in my J-frames for the reasons mentioned in the above quote.
     
  5. unit1069

    unit1069

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    A flat nose bullet can do a lot of damage while ensuring good penetration.

    I carry Sellier & Bellot 140-grain .357sig rounds when I venture into the woods, with a backup magazine of Hornady 147-grain XTP.

    I imagine a .45ACP flat nose round would be formidable.
     
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  6. JMag

    JMag

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    To hang up many semi autos?
     
  7. unit1069

    unit1069

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    A Lorcin perhaps, but certainly not a problem for a handgun of even basic quality.
     
  8. dkf

    dkf

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    The metplat isn't too large on the bullets the OP is referring to and it is has a radius to boot. It is a TC bullet, basically an FMJ version of the XTP profile. Still it should make a slightly more crisp hole in paper than an RN. If my pistol couldn't feed a bullet like that reliably I would get rid of it.
     
  9. JMag

    JMag

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    You would be surprised.
     
  10. Ak.Hiker

    Ak.Hiker

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    Buffalo Bore loads a 230 grain flat point +P 45 ACP designed for protection when in the woods. Flat points are known to have the ability to penetrate straighter than a round nose. The older I get the more I am happy with standard 230 grain hardball but the flat points do have some merit.
     
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  11. PhotoFeller

    PhotoFeller A swamp dude

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    I'm with you,Hiker. Reliability is worth a lot in my book.
     
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  12. fredj338

    fredj338

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    If your gun will only feed rnfmj, then you need to fix the gun. Modern designs will feed any jhp,most wide nose lfp as well. The Lee 200gr RNFP has a meplat the size of a 9mm bullet. It crushes a lot of what ever is in Front of it. It feeds in all my 45s; 1911s, XD, of course runs great on my 625. Sim designs are available in 10mm & 357. It would be my choice if I couldn't use a good jhp.
     
  13. Kentguy

    Kentguy

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    Although this may not be the thought behind the creation of the round listed above but another thought behind the flat nosed bullet is for use in a lever action carbine/rifle. rounds are loaded one in front of the next - nose to tail, there is a lesser chance of premature detonation of a round in the magazine.
     
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  14. gooffeyguy

    gooffeyguy In the STL

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    I'm sure not technically the real reason, but the best reason for me.... They fit better in ammo boxes, especially the plastic ones used when reloading. When placed with primer up, round nose is wobbly and doesn't stay correctly and then requires you to place them primer down. This in turn makes it more difficult to remove out of the box with your fingers only able to grasp the rounded tips.

    Sent from my GT-P3113 using Tapatalk
     
  15. PhotoFeller

    PhotoFeller A swamp dude

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    I don't have a huge amount of experience shooting 1911s, but I own a Les Baer and other quality .45 pistols. I'm not leery of JHP ammo based on personal experience, but I've read a lot about 1911s being picky about the stuff they like or don't like.

    In my simple mind, .45 round nose ammo would be effective for self defense and should be the most reliable fodder for a 1911. Anyway, I figure death from a natural cause is likely to get me long before a bad guy might try to put me down.
     
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  16. Lindenwood

    Lindenwood

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    Flat points take advantage of a concept called Supercavitation. A high-velocity projectile with a flat point will create a high center of pressure at the nose of the bullet. At a certain pressure threshold*, this pressure forces the fluid radially outward at a velocity high enough that the "hole" left in the fluid ahead of the projectile is larger in diameter than the projectile itself (the "super" meaning "ahead of").

    The advantages are two-fold:

    1) First, that the fluid is actually not contacting the sides of the bullet means reduced friction, which means greater and straighter penetration.

    2) That larger-than-caliber "hole" punched through the medium can result in permanent wound channels significantly larger than the bullet diameter. The results are harder to find because the mainstream is all focused on the latest fancy JHPs, but if you dig around you will find many results of 1.5"+ wound cavities with depths of 24-48 inches using bullets having meplats of, say, .35" to .40" pushed to velocities in the 1200-1400fps range.

    Conversely, the tapered edges of the expanded mushroom of a typical JHP do not induce the same radial velocity in the fluid as the nominally-flat central area. Thus, they tend to generate more friction for a given tissue displacement, which is why they stop much earlier than a WFN despite similar overall wound diameters.

    In the .45 Super thread, es350 reported the following results:

    A 215gr WFN bullet with a .38" meplat, pushed something around 1350-1400fps, made a permanent wound about 1.5-1.75+ in diameter all the way through the animal.

    A ~200gr XTP (not 100% sure of the weight of the top of my head) pushed at a similar velocity made a 1.75-2" permanent wound cavity in the first 6" of penetration but which tapered down closer to caliber-sized after that.

    Google "wide meplat permanent wound cavity" and you will find los of threads, with pictures, showing similar results.

    *edit: forgot to add*
    *That "certain velocity" is a function of bullet diameter, meplat diameter, and fluid density / cohesion. Most any bullet fired into water will make a big splash as large volumes of fluid are displaced by that center of pressure. Tissue, obviously, is much less fragile, but the end effect of having tissue displaced to a diameter greater than the bullet--even to such a large degree that a volume of tissue well beyond bullet diameter is damaged beyond function--is very real and very common.

    Long story short:
    JHPs came about as an improvement over round-nose bullets, and they are. They were justified to the public by over-hyping what is barely more than the myth of "over-penetration resulting in hitting innocent bystanders," but the underlying goal was to get more effective ammo for police officers. The reason WFN bullets are not more widely used is a combination of feed reliability (in both autos and revolvers) and the continued belief that there is a small child cowering behind every would-be murderer.

    I often run FWCs in my G21, and would absolutely keep the first cylinder stocked with them in a revolver.

    2015-09-04 14.19.09.jpg
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2015
  17. GregP220

    GregP220

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    I often buy FP bullets in bulk to help simulate JHPs in practice.

    If I had a pistol that wouldn't digest those like pacman eating dots I'd sell the POS ASAP.
     
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  18. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Shoot more, read less. :2gun:I have 1911s in all flavors & manuf; full size, Comm & OM. All feed just about anything; all jhp, lswc, lfp, boringly reliable. There is so much hype about the unreliable, finicky 1911, mostly BS. Feed it decent ammo from a quality mag, not unlike most any semiauto, don't mess with it, it will run fine. Yes RNFMJ is reliable, about all that can be said for it. Effective, more like adequate & IMO, adequate sucks in a gunfight.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2015
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  19. Lindenwood

    Lindenwood

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    Oh, and fwiw, with an EMPTY case loaded into the mag of my 1911, I could drop the slide from slide lock and it would feed 100% of the time...

    Also, it is unlikely you will find a factory-loaded .45 ACP using bullets with a meplat greater than about .28. If you handload, the best you can do relatively inexpensively or in bulk will be 255gr SWCs (basic .45 Keiths), which typically have a meplat of .32.

    Here is a link to a basic calculator that is probably accurate +/- 15% if I had to put a number to it . But, it is pretty consistent andat least useful for comparison's sake.

    http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/wound.htm
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2015
  20. PhotoFeller

    PhotoFeller A swamp dude

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    I can't fuss about your statement. You obviously are an experienced 1911 guy who has carefully tested your pistols for reliability. I can't help but wonder, though, if your .45s have been tweaked a little to achieve near perfection or if you own high-end guns that are hand-fitted and carefully tested before delivery.

    I used to hang out at the 1911 forum where nearly everyone loved 'em, carried 'em and frequently fussed about finding the 'right' ammo to achieve high-level reliability. The reliability concern is one reason I bought a Les Baer early in my 1911 experience.

    I love the 1911 platform. I love shooting them, but I don't carry one for self defense. I should have made that clear early on. Of all the guns I've owned, nothing has been as fun or felt so natural in my hand. Plus, I grew up when 1911s were the king of autoloaders, and I have a special affinity for historic US military weapons.
     
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