Cliff notes for those of us who refuse to support YouTube/google?

 

It’s consistent with what a lot of us here believe.



I watched this earlier.

From memory it basically comes down to two points: cost and liability.

The first 6 points are all basically about cost (that people won’t test and train with expensive ammo and won’t cycle it out for fresh ammo due to cost).

The last point is about not using some ammo with a stupid name like “Zombie Max” in case you are brought up on charges.

He also says that the exception is 380 ACP for him. He’ll go hot ammo there.

I agree with his points. But if the budget is robust enough then points 1-6 are moot. #7 is a good one and I usually only carry a reputable bullet with a +P load so it’s still called the same name as it would be otherwise. In general I stay away from gimmicky rounds like the “Xtreme Penetrator.”

Some people use that round in 380 and 9mm, but it penetrates like a FMJ (>20”+). It’d be hard to plead innocence if you overpenetrated your target and hit an innocent person.

Imagine on the witness stand being interrogated: “You bought ammunition called Xtreme Penetrator... how can you be surprised that this round overpenetrated and hit the child in the next room?!”

 

Decently worded for the average lay person/gun owner, and providing some thoughtful points to consider. Pretty basic stuff for folks who have acquired more than basic training and experiential knowledge, but it never hurts to rehash some basic points (just like continually reflecting upon firearms safety). I find his little videos nicely paced and agreeable, usually formatted to stimulate people to think.

 

I found most of what he said reasonable. I still use 'botique' ammo simply because it duplicates a proven LE load used for decades in shorter barrels.

 

Yes, but you're doing so with a specific purpose in mind, and some background knowledge and insight. You're not just falling victim to glitzy packaging, some nifty brand name/slogan or because you think it's better because it's warp-powered.

Sometimes specialty is actually specialty ... and sometimes it might be the modern boutique version of snake oil, or offering something specially compounded in some dark elf's lab, using unobtainium or a mysterious blending of powdered materials using a secret alchemical formula, offering "performance" that deftly sidesteps the normal laws of physics.

 

I watched about half of it. He makes some solid points, but the price argument is baseless. Even at $1 a round for premium stuff $80 gets you enough ammo to put 50 through the gun for accuracy and function check and another 30 for carry, depending on your weapon’s capacity. $40 per year for rotating the ammo really isn’t a lot. I’d rather carry something better than a UMC or WWB JHP even if I was only able to afford 50 rounds to check accuracy and function.

I don’t know why so many people push this idea that you need to shoot 500 rounds of a specific ammo through your gun before you carry it. That’s just nonsense. If it’s ammo from reputable manufacturer fired through a well made firearm, any ammo related issues are going to pop up in the first 50 or so rounds. I think people perpetuate that stuff just to draw attention to themselves and get YouTube clicks.

 

I don’t know why so many people push this idea that you need to shoot 500 rounds of a specific ammo through your gun before you carry it. That’s just nonsense. If it’s ammo from reputable manufacturer fired through a well made firearm, any ammo related issues are going to pop up in the first 50 or so rounds.

At this point in time I think it is crystal clear that a gun owners priority is stocking ammo inventories. The last thing I am going to do now is burn half a case of ammo just so I can say, ya my new Glock works.

 

There’s no reason to use anything but HST these days.

I use FMJ for .380 and below, but otherwise, standard pressure HST will work just fine.

 

"No reason" is a bit strong IMO. In my case, I have half a dozen 9mm guns that have been vetted for accuracy and reliability with the Gold Dot +P. The same round that quite a few LE agencies still trust.

It is easier for me to buy a single extra box when needed to add to my supply rather than buy a case of the HST to get a potential small percentage point gain. I do agree that HST is consistently good in all the service calibers.

Mr Harrell's videos are enjoyable to watch. Not always "scientific", but he adds another data point for those interested.

 

I wouldn't use boutique rounds, but I also wouldn't use WWB JHP's when I can
get Speer GDs for a fair price.

 

Kinda piggybacking on @TheDreadnought above post. While I have always seen wisdom in the over penetration theory, I have never heard of one. Has anyone ever read of or documented a LEO or civilian shooting in which a solid torso hit resulted in a bystander being injured or killed after a pass through? :dunno:

 

Ayoob talks about stats in the below article.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/25/m.../02/25/massad-ayoob-is-hollowpoint-the-best-defensive-ammo-for-concealed-carry/

 

Ancient history, retold for the new kids. Over penetration is what caused the NYPD to finally be permitted to use JHP, AKA Dum Dum, bullets.

https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/reloading/massad-ayoob-the-dangers-of-over-penetrating-bullets

 

IMHO, Paul Harrell makes the best gun videos available.
I gotta get me some of those busquadero ticondas.
Hard to believe he did this in two takes. The man is articulate.

 

I’ve seen the Shooting the Bull videos. I don’t agree with his premise.

Curious what it is that you don't agree with?

 

Curious what it is that you don't agree with?

The premise that overpenetration should disqualify a round from consideration. Sorry if I didn't make that connection more clear in my post. What the FBI needs and what a civilian needs are not necessarily always the same thing.

 

Appreciate the clarification :cheers:

 

Ancient history, retold for the new kids. Over penetration is what caused the NYPD to finally be permitted to use JHP, AKA Dum Dum, bullets.

https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/reloading/massad-ayoob-the-dangers-of-over-penetrating-bullets

This article kinda makes my point for me:

1. First off, it's apples and oranges. All the discussion in the linked article is about 9mm or larger rounds. These rounds are just fine penetration-wise and HST is an excellent choice.

2. The point in this discussion thread is about .380 and smaller rounds that struggle from a penetration standpoint.

3. The article also talks about how officers are often in a position of having fellow officers in close proximity to the target due to trying to shoot or apprehend him from another angle. . . while bystanders typically flee. Not something that is typical of a civilian situation. The nature of criminal attacks make it much less likely for anybody else to be around when a civilian is attacked and certainly less likely that any other civilian will be actively wrestling with the target, as opposed to running away.

4. I've already explained that for HD overpenetration is not a concern in my situation - and in any event I'll be using a .40 or larger caliber bullet, and thus an HST.

 

Paul doing over penetration with .380 and 9mm FMJ round nose and FMJ flat nose.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX3gpJ-GAy0

 

We have to define things here. To me, "hyper" ammo is the $1-$2 per round gimmicky stuff. I do not consider things like Gold Dot or HST to be in that category.

 

Was out for a walk around the block, so I said what the hey, I’ll listen.
Thirty minutes of my life I will never get back.
Glock-27 loaded with Winchester 180 gr PDX-1 on
me.
Guess I need to get some Ty kaaaandas...

 

So how does is not make sense to use the most effective ammo available, regardless of a relatively minuscule difference in cost when it could mean the difference between life and death? How much is you life worth?

Thank you! Believe it or not that needed saying, no matter what the advantage is you want it when things get real.

 

So how does is not make sense to use the most effective ammo available, regardless of a relatively minuscule difference in cost when it could mean the difference between life and death? How much is your life worth?

Prove to me that 9mm Speer Gold Dot is "more effective" than Remington UMC of the same weight and design.

 

It may be the same weight but it's not the same design. The Remington will be a cup and core design while the gold dot is basically a bonded core design. Cup and core 9mm's do not have a good record in actual street shootings but for one exception, and that is the Federal Plus+P+Plus 115 grain and that's because of the increased velocity which approaches the 357 Sig, overcomes the deficiencies of the cup-and-core bullet.

The Speer Gold dot has a very good record in actual street shootings and preforms better than cup and core jhp's in calibrated ballistics Gel and the same can be said for Federal HST, Ranger T, and the Hornady 135 grain critical duty Plus +p was chosen over just about everything else bu the FBI as their duty ammo not only because of expansion and penetration characteristics but because of barrier penetration.

Can you PROVE that Remington UMC ammo is "just as effective" as any of the ammo that's been shown to be most effective in actual street shootings? And would you be willing to bet your life on it?

 

I ask you to prove to me yours is more effective, and you say that back to me.

Wow.

And yes, I would bet my life to Remington UMC green & white box.

 

When I first got into handguns a dozen years ago I thought the same way as you until more experienced shooters and ballistics evidence changed my mind. I don't favor boutique ammo but rather stick with proven JHP rounds offered by Big American Ammo companies, both standard and +P pressure.

I know of no law enforcement agency that issues Remington green/white box to its officers, but a lot of them do issue Golden Saber. You'd think if the green/white product was just as good as Golden Saber --- and costs a lot less --- the green eyeshade people would jump on the the chance to save money that could go to other necessities.

 

The LE agencies who have done the testing and spent a of time researching it, they issue HP ammo of some sort.

 

Remington UMC makes a JHP bullet design.

 

Well what I did. My first magazine is a top end HP, the back up magazines are with FMJ. In fact I just changed out all my .45 to FMJ. Now Lawman makes a 230 Gr HP, and I use those.
I find when your on a fixed income you primary SD handgun has the best ammo, all others will have also ran cheaper ammo. I have also added more coverage of the Pump 12. Last back up coverage is the AR.

 

Paul Harrell should be viewed for entertainment and not for information.

 

Prove to me that 9mm Speer Gold Dot is "more effective" than Remington UMC of the same weight and design.

The best answer for your question is I can't prove it. What I can say is I have seen the data from the FBI and Speer. So, I have a good idea how the Gold Dot will perform. The Gold Dot also has a lot of documented street shootings that back up the Gold Dot's performance. I have not seen any credible data on how the Remington performs. Nor have I seen any results from actual shootings on how well it performs. So is it possible the Remington UMC performs as well as the Gold Dot? Yes its possible. However we are talking about a bullet that are you betting your life on so I would recommend a known performer verses and round that might or might no perform.

 

Why would you think that a round with a jacketed hollow point that moves approximately as fast as some +P rounds (because the ones I am talking about don't go any faster than standard, talking about FPS only here) wouldn't perform? The bullet isn't going to bounce off of someone. The only difference I have seen in any testing is the group seems to open up a little, and at 7 yards, if I aim center-of-mass and hit 3" to one side instead of 1 to 1-1/2" to one side, I am good with that. If I really think one round didn't do what I needed to, I have more in the gun, and squeezing the trigger is pretty fast.

"Practice ammo" isn't pure junk, at least what I'd use to practice with.

*shrug* I am not trying to convince anyone here of my way. I am just saying, this is my way. I know I'd sure rather have my Glock filled with Remington UMC ammo than a Yeet Cannon with HST's.

 

I ask you to prove to me yours is more effective, and you say that back to me.

Wow.

And yes, I would bet my life to Remington UMC green & white box.

I offered adequate proof but you chose to ignore it and focus on an off-hand remark, so here's another one for you:

1979 is calling and they want their ammo back.

 

Nothing you said proved it was better.

1979 is calling and they want their ammo back.

They can come and try to take it.

 

I will just say "I will agree to disagree" with you and move on. I am not changing your mind, please don't waste your time trying to change mind, because I don't want to have to waste my time putting you on ignore.

 

Y

You're really something