I think you pretty much nailed it. In 10mm, I think it is hard to get enough powder in the case to push things much beyond what a powder like Longshot can deliver within book values. Maybe with Rowland's slightly greater case volume (over the 10), #9 might be the ticket. Look forward to your results, if you decide to test it.

I love #9 for 10mm. It doesn't hit nuke levels, but will deliver plenty for most practical applications, low flash, meters like water, really pleasant recoil characteristics (over Longshot).

 

I will have to try some hot AA#9 loads.

.

 

In my personal testing, A9 gets the nod for high intensity 10mm loads for 155 to 200 gr bullets. Sticking to book data, A9 gets better velocities AND groups out of my Gen 3 g20. A hot 200 gr XTP is about tops in accuracy for me. The only demerit is efficiency. A can of A9 goes fast with those big charges.

I do really like LS though. It is a great 10mm powder, and I like it for higher volume medium-hot loads.

 

Unlike some others, I just don't get 800x. I get better vel with Bluedot, longshot & aa#9. Vel are close enough between the 4 for me pushing 200gr bullets, why I have a 10m. In the first place. A 200gr bullet at 1200fps is plenty fast.

 

800x provides good velocity and terrible accuracy in the 10mm. It makes me wonder if most 10mm people even test for accuracy or just try to get the most velocity possible for bragging rights. If you need to load the 10mm past 37,500 psi to get your desired power level you really should of bought a bigger gun in the first place. Sure you can overload the 10mm and not have it blow up right away, but you can do that with any cartridge. 45 Super 460 Rowland are good alternatives.

 

Long shot is my go to for 10 mm

 

I can't compare the two in 10mm, having only loaded Longshot in 40SW. Just moments ago I finished loading 300 rds with No 9 and a 185 gr hollow point cast bullet, and I think these will actually be my first AA9 loads in 10mm. I will be loading Longshot within the week though, but right now I've just finished with the No 9 loads and am experimenting with some 300 MP trials. They won't be much compared to No 9...even with a compressed charge I can only get about 15.4gr of 300MP in the case, and that won't be anything super heavy duty, but I expect they'll be stout and comfortable to shoot. We'll see.

My issues with Longshot in 40SW included unbelievable muzzle blast, flash and harsh recoil. In fact I broke several parts including the slide on my Kahr with Longshot loads that I don't believe were max. But, so many folks seem to like it, when it came available again I picked up a big jug, and I think 10mm will be the only place I use it. Definitely not for sd loads though--unless I change my strategy to blinding my adversary rather than hitting him with lead.

So far, I have not found any 10mm load at all that comes close to No 9 in terms of a match between max load and case fill. Seems every other propellant would do just as well in a 40SW case.

800X isn't funny any more...when mine is gone it will be a distant and unpleasant memory.

 

Curious what your results are! Anyone gone "nuclear" with AA#9?

I havent tested accuracy too much, but 12.0gr of 800x gets me about 1400fps from a 250gr XTP from a 6.6" barrel, with 15yd groups around 1", standing unsupported. Going up to 12.4gr gets about 1440fps, but with pretty significant case head expansion (yes at easily 50k PSI or more).

I would like to be able to match that 1400fps velocity, and if #9 can make the same numbers at lower peak pressures (being slower) I'd certainly take it!

And if it wasn't clear, I am definitely not afraid to work above book loads, but there isn't a lot of user data for #9 at these levels.

 

#9 is great but I detest the light density of it. I can use half the powder to get the same velocity using something else. I much prefer Longshot in 10mm. Blue Dot if I have the patience to deal with poor metering.

 

Disregarding load density, is longshot actually capable of higher numbers?

 

Disregarding load density, is longshot actually capable of higher numbers?

What do you mean by "higher numbers"? Higher numbers than what - #9?

Longshot does produce higher velocities in some cartridges with heavier bullets than faster burning powders.

.

 

Between the two powders, I am just trying to find out which has produced higher velocities in hot (re-read: above book) handloads. I am familiar with the available loading data, but some powders peak quickly or are inconsistent at only small increments above book (like Blue Dot) while others are much more gradual (like 800x).

This is for "Magnum"-level .45 SUPER loads, but there is only a small number of people pushing even to, let alone past, Rowland numbers, so there is limited data available. However, being able to interpolate from user experiences with other cartridges would certainly give a good starting point.

 

Longshot has a more linear pressure curve than #9 and is more suited to working beyond published guidelines. With that in mind it is possible to obtain higher velocity with Longshot than with #9.

 

#9 meters better, longshot gives better velocity with less powder volume. both work well. would use them for serious business and something more mid range for general range/target use. my experience with these has been limited to available book data, I do not exceed max, nor do I push the top end of the scale. no matter the powder I use, my loads will stay upper mid range. should I need more than this I will see if I can find a bazooka.
the 10mm has impressed the hell out of me. I enjoy my G29 and G20, and have made the 29 my EDC. the 20 travels with me on vacation for a "woods" gun when an unpleasant black bear might visit. had a rouge bear close to our campfire this last summer, but fortunately did not see nor need to discourage said bear from eating one of my grandchildren.

 

In my experience with the 10mm 800x has given as good accuracy as LS,
I have only used cast boolits though, and the 10mm is not the equal of the
357mag.

I have five guns that shoot the 10mm with barrels from 4.6'' to 6.6'' and
nineteen 357s with barrels from 1.750'' to 20''. With a LBT 187gr fngc
the 357 always smokes the 10mm, even a 3'' J frame will shoot a 180
cast at over 1300fps with factory ammo.

 

In my experience with the 10mm 800x has given as good accuracy as LS,
I have only used cast boolits though, and the 10mm is not the equal of the
357mag.

I have five guns that shoot the 10mm with barrels from 4.6'' to 6.6'' and
nineteen 357s with barrels from 1.750'' to 20''. With a LBT 187gr fngc
the 357 always smokes the 10mm, even a 3'' J frame will shoot a 180
cast at over 1300fps with factory ammo.

If you have a 3" 357mag that will do that, it is not the norm I assure you. I'm a big 357mag fan, but none of my several 4" guns will reach 1300fps w/ a 180gr bullet. You are right about the 10mm in that it is closer to a 357mag than anything else. Though with 200gr jhp or lfp, it certainly the equal of a 4" 357mag.

 

I load for the bullet's designed velocity range; IMR 800X, Longshot, AA #7 and AA #9 all achieve excellent velocities and accuracy.

800X has a much lower flash signature compared to Blue Dot. ....175gr Silvertip knocking on 1400fps from a 6" KKM barrel;

 

I think some of you guys are kind of forgetting that highest velocity equals highest average pressure.
Generally speaking you can take faster and faster powders and get higher and higher peak pressures
and resulting higher velocities but that does not make the faster powder the better choice for the
application. I use #9 for heavier bullets 180 and 200 gr in 10mm because I think it creates the highest
average pressure with the lowest peak pressure and giving me the safest highest velocity. This almost
has to be true because the gas mass has to equal the powder mass and 16 grains of powder when converted
to gas is more gas than a lighter charge of another powder. So the extra volume( or mass) of gas created
pushes longer down the barrel without attaining a dangerous peak pressure.

For 155gr bullets I have determined that # 8 is best ( fifty fifty combo of #7 and #9 )

 

Remember you are limited to the magazine length of the 10mm,
some 357s allow you to get a longer OAL.

This is an old post of mine in the thread,

School me on the differance between the 10mm and .357

http://www.glocktalk.com/threads/school-me-on-the-differance-between-the-10mm-and-357.1588732/

First off the 10mm is not close to a 41mag.

I have five guns that shoot the 10mm with barrels from
4.375'' to 6.6'', also have 19 guns that shoot the .357mag
with barrels from 1.750'' to 20''.

I try to get all I can from them all safely and so does buffalobore.

Please if you can show me a 10mm load that will beat this load
in the 357.

Take note, This ammo is safe to shoot in ANY all steel 357 revolver - this includes J frames.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=100

Heavy 357 Magnum Ammo - 180 gr. Hard Cast LFN-GC (1,400fps/M.E. 783 ft. lbs.) - 20 Round Box

Our 357 mag. ammo adds more power than ever before to the 357 mag. This ammo is safe to shoot in ANY all steel 357 revolver - this includes J frames. This ammo is no harder on your gun than any other normal 357 ammo. Please don't phone us and ask if this ammo is safe in your gun. It is, providing your gun is in safe condition for use with any normal 357 ammo.

We don't recommend this ammo to be fired in super light alloy revolvers as bullets may jump crimp under recoil, but the ammo itself wont hurt these super light weight revolvers. These revolvers are simply so light that the recoil is severe enough to cause crimp jump.

The below velocities are offered so that you can see what guns/barrel lengths give what velocities with this new 357 mag. ammo. You'll notice that new S&W revolvers with short barrels are often shooting faster than older S&W revolvers with longer barrels. The new S&W revolvers are very good and are made with equipment that makes them more consistent and faster than the S&W revolvers of yesteryear.

Make special note of the Marlin 1894, 18.5 inch barrel velocities. Item 19C/20, supercedes 30-30 energies!!!

1. 3 inch S&W J frame

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1302 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) = 1299 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1398 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1476 fps

2. 4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1375 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr JHC = 1411 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1485 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1603 fps

3. 5 inch S&W model 27

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast =1398 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1380 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1457 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1543 fps

Here is the best loads for the 10mm,
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gex6ItGeWQunVZR9B14mseacyEGoreRRrBEXZavfciM/edit?pli=1#gid=7

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gex6ItGeWQunVZR9B14mseacyEGoreRRrBEXZavfciM/edit?pli=1#gid=6

Here is some 357 data.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12cjblt0pDB-csBqvoDoCLQH_SLRlUNLHkBVDxge1O2k/edit?pli=1#gid=7

Remember that not all 357s are created equal, some have longer
cylinders and some have stronger cylinders and some have longer
and stronger cylinders, the J frame is one of the weakest and it shoots
that load just fine.

I cast and load a better version of the BB 180gr boolit, mine
has two crimp groves to take advantage of the different cylinders
and it is 187gr, it also has a bigger meplat and will shoot less than
three inch six shot groups at 100yds in the 6'' gp100 at 1500fps.

We shot that same load in two different 6.5'' and one 5'' BH revolvers
at 200yds, all three of them shot 6'' or better with six shot groups.

We have taken deer and elk with this load and it works super.

Here is a elk shot with a different version of that boolit in a 357 rifle,
I had nothing to do with that story, just for show what a 357 will do.

http://www.mountainmolds.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=155&p=388&hilit=elk+shot+with+a+357#p388

Here is a good article on the BB 180 cast,
http://www.gunblast.com/MilesFortis-AKChurch_BuffaloBore.htm

If you want a Glock to be better than a 10mm then you need a g21
and make a 45super or a 460 rowland, I have five glocks that shoot
them too.

 

Remember you are limited to the magazine length of the 10mm,
some 357s allow you to get a longer OAL.

You bring up a good point. This is one reason I really like the Keith style 168 - 178 grain SWC's. When crimped in the crimp groove they take up the same amount of case volume as most 158 grain bullets. 1300 fps+ is no problem in a revolver with a long enough cylinder. They also have a BC of .286 which is greater than any other handgun bullet I'm aware of. I know your thinking BC isn't important for a handgun bullet, but I have to disagree. The energy loss as close as 50 yards can be substantial and make a difference when hunting large game such as deer and hogs.

 

That must be a typo; no the 158gr lswc doesn't have a BC that high & at 50yds, no it doesn't matter, vel loss is not that substantial. Starting a 158gr high BC bullet @ 1300fps = 593ft# at the muzzle & 486ft# at 50, 100ft# doesn't really mean much. The SIerra RNFMJ has that high a BC but that is not a SWC. Even then, muzzle vs 50yd energy is 638 vs 563. Not really a big deal. Obviously going beyond 50yds, BC plays a larger role.
https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/8350/38-Caliber-357-170-gr-FMJ-Match-100-bullets

 

Yes, to me the BC is important, that is just one more place the 357 beats the 10mm, my 187gr boolit
is around .225 BC.

I live on a ranch and can and do shoot long range, even with revolvers, can shoot over one mile if
I want.

You would not believe what we have done at long range with revolvers.

Cool, I've always wondered what the BC of those 187 grainers is. Those are my second favorite 357 bullets. I got over 1100 fps out of my little 2.25" SP101 using those bullets. That's over 500 ft\lbs of muzzle energy from a tiny revolver. I get about the same performance from 180 grain bullets in my g29 with a 3.78" barrel, but that's with jacketed bullets. I haven't experimented with lead bullets in the 10mm yet but plan on doing so.

 

If you live in the Boise area I will give you some to try, I bet they will be your favorite after you try them,
you will do more than 1100fps in your SP101, I know because I have three of them in that barrel length.

You need to drive them fast for best results, we have shot them out to 625 yards in the six inch barrels
with a MV of 1500fps.

Fred, we don't do any thing normal on this ranch, also this morning I saw 16 deer six elk and one bear
all in about one hour.

 

That must be a typo; no the 158gr lswc doesn't have a BC that high & at 50yds, no it doesn't matter, vel loss is not that substantial. Starting a 158gr high BC bullet @ 1300fps = 593ft# at the muzzle & 486ft# at 50, 100ft# doesn't really mean much. The SIerra RNFMJ has that high a BC but that is not a SWC. Even then, muzzle vs 50yd energy is 638 vs 563. Not really a big deal. Obviously going beyond 50yds, BC plays a larger role.
https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/8350/38-Caliber-357-170-gr-FMJ-Match-100-bullets

I'm just going by what the Lyman 49th manual says. There's some good info in this thread if you're interested.

 

Always interested in good info. Just not so much in nebulous info. It's easy to look up the BC of various bullets. It's also easy to understand why one type has a higher BC than another. A SWC can't have a higher BC than same weight with less meplat. Also easy to run the ballistics yourself & you'll see that BC at normal handgun ranges means nothing.:dunno:

 

So, nobody has compared the two over a chronogra0h? .

 

So, nobody has compared the two over a chronogra0h? .

Would show nothing unless your chrono is at 100y.

 

I get faster velocitys with longshot in 10mm then with any other powder. But I do like #9,blue dot ,power pistol, 800x does well with lighter bullets but when it comes down to it longshot is the fastest 10mm powder according to my chrono

 

My chrono says 800X is faster. It's also got terrible accuracy. I'm playing with longshot now for volume steel with 200 grain Xtreme RNFP and I'm not getting accuracy with it either. Maybe I'm driving the plated bullets too fast. I love AA9 but I don't want to burn up 500 at 13 plus grains per for steel shooting. I am searching for an accurate medium heavy volume steel shooting load.

I love a hot charge of AA9 under a 200 grain XTP. Excellent case fill, metering, recoil impulse, and accuracy. It likes a heavy bullet to get it "on the cam" in 10mm.

 

With 180gr jacketed and my G20 OEM barrel, I found 800x and Longshot to be comparable velocity wise, and started seeing smiles at almost the exact same velocities (roughly 1325fps +/-). the main difference I could discern with 800x over Longshot was it seemed to be a little easier on the case rims. My hottest Lonshot loads (along with my hottest vv-N105 loads, my best velocity performer in my OEM barrel) really do a job on the extractor rims. For what ever reason, 800x seemed a little kinder on the rims (not kind enough to make me want to drop and trickle that stuff forever.. ).

I could never get enough AA #9 in the case with the 180's to equal the N105 (another very full case load), Longshot (always plenty of room ) and 800x, but, it still is my favorite all around 10mm powder (I only load 180 and 200gr slugs). Enough velocity at high load density (meters like a dream in my Dillon drop), zero flash, very accurate powder. Winner, winner for me.

 

I want to try N105 in 10mm. I got 1400fps in my .357 6.5" BH driving 158 SWC's with VV N105. It looks like a good match for it. I haven't noticed the difference in case rims getting chewed up by the extractor between powders other than all my hotter loads do it....a remedy for that would be great.:cowboy:

 

QUOTE="WeeWilly, post: 24564348, member: 183782"]With 180gr jacketed and my G20 OEM barrel, I found 800x and Longshot to be comparable velocity wise, and started seeing smiles at almost the exact same velocities (roughly 1325fps +/-). the main difference I could discern with 800x over Longshot was it seemed to be a little easier on the case rims. My hottest Lonshot loads (along with my hottest vv-N105 loads, my best velocity performer in my OEM barrel) really do a job on the extractor rims. For what ever reason, 800x seemed a little kinder on the rims (not kind enough to make me want to drop and trickle that stuff forever.. ).

I could never get enough AA #9 in the case with the 180's to equal the N105 (another very full case load), Longshot (always plenty of room ) and 800x, but, it still is my favorite all around 10mm powder (I only load 180 and 200gr slugs). Enough velocity at high load density (meters like a dream in my Dillon drop), zero flash, very accurate powder. Winner, winner for me. [/QUOTE]


WeeWilly I have had my best performance with Longshot. Just something to keep in mind, the G20 I shoot is completely built! I do not recommend anyone who uses a stock glock to travel in the upper limits of LS or 800x...

 

WeeWilly how was your Percision and accuracy ? Here are a few pics...... The ducks were shot at 20yrds.

 

My 200gr AA#9 loads are almost twice as accurate in my stock G20sf vs 800X. Why I have given up on it. I don't care how much powder I amusing, it's not like I am shooting 200rds a week of full power 10mm.

 

My 800x loads are not very accurate, need to tame them down and find the sweet spot. LongShot is very accurate in my G20. Haven’t loaded with #9 just yet, seems to be a few people’s favorite.

 

My 800x loads are not very accurate, need to tame them down and find the sweet spot. LongShot is very accurate in my G20. Haven’t loaded with #9 just yet, seems to be a few people’s favorite.

Fred turned me onto AA9 from using 800X. Way more accurate. I plink 10mm with Longshot but load heavies with AA#9. Excellent case fill, metering, and accuracy. In 10mm it likes a lot of pull with a heavy bullet on top to build pressure. It's close to 2400 burn rate but is superior to it in 10mm with heavies. The 200 grain XTP is perfect for it as well as hard cast 200's.

 

The 357sig guys rave about AA#9, so it seems a natural in the 10mm as well. A little slower than LS, but less blast & meters perfectly. Sure I use a bit more powder but who cares.