[FLIPPER 348]

+1. The 1911 was originally and specifically designed to be carried hammer back with the thumb safety engaged on a loaded chamber.

It is not like that is a secret . . . :tongueout:

ah, no




From CW Clawson's book, Collectors Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of the 1911 and 1911A1: Page 7 -- In 1913 an addenda was added to the Army Ordnance Manual for the 1911 emphasizing not to carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and the safety lock on except in an emergency as it was not the intended purpose of the safety lock.



The 1910 prototype that was first submitted didn't have the thumb safety. The grip safety had been in place on the Colt contract pistols since 1905 as an add-on...and incorporated into the design shortly after.

The thumb safety...aka "Manual, slide locking" safety...was added at the US Cavalry's request so that a mounted trooper who found himself trying to hang onto a frightened horse could reholster the gun without shooting himself or the horse. Even in those unenlightened days, they realized that a man under stress might forget to take his finger out of the trigger guard before jamming the piece into a holster.

So...The thumb safety wasn't about cocked and locked carry. It was added for safe reholstering in an emergency. The cry: "Cocked and Locked, like JMB intended!" is erroneous. He had no such intent, nor did the US Army. If Browning had any intent at all, it was to carry the pistol on half-cock, and even alludes to it in the 1910 patents...calling it "The Safety Position" and goes on to give instruction on safely lowering the hammer with one hand.

 

[hogship]

ah, no




From CW Clawson's book, Collectors Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of the 1911 and 1911A1: Page 7 -- In 1913 an addenda was added to the Army Ordnance Manual for the 1911 emphasizing not to carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and the safety lock on except in an emergency as it was not the intended purpose of the safety lock.



The 1910 prototype that was first submitted didn't have the thumb safety. The grip safety had been in place on the Colt contract pistols since 1905 as an add-on...and incorporated into the design shortly after.

The thumb safety...aka "Manual, slide locking" safety...was added at the US Cavalry's request so that a mounted trooper who found himself trying to hang onto a frightened horse could reholster the gun without shooting himself or the horse. Even in those unenlightened days, they realized that a man under stress might forget to take his finger out of the trigger guard before jamming the piece into a holster.

So...The thumb safety wasn't about cocked and locked carry. It was added for safe reholstering in an emergency. The cry: "Cocked and Locked, like JMB intended!" is erroneous. He had no such intent, nor did the US Army. If Browning had any intent at all, it was to carry the pistol on half-cock, and even alludes to it in the 1910 patents...calling it "The Safety Position" and goes on to give instruction on safely lowering the hammer with one hand.

Thanks flipper, for this input......

I'm interested to hear from bac, or some of the other 1911 experts who frequent this forum......

but......

This really does seem like a revelation to me!!!!! This post from flipper sent me to the safe to check on my 1911.......and, I see that the half cock position does, indeed require the grip safety to be engaged for the trigger to release the hammer forward from the half cock position. It seems to make sense to me that JMB may have intended for the 1911 to be carried with a round in the chamber and hammer on half cock. (Besides the obvious similarities to the SAA revolver in use, this is exactly like many rifles of the day were carried.....Springfields, Winchesters, etc......)

When you think of this a little.......during these early times of automatic pistols being adopted from revolver carry, many, if not most soldiers of the day were still using single action revolvers on a regular basis (even though double action revolvers had been in use for some 20+ years at that time, the old single action army revolver was still quite relevant to the times). It would make sense that the simple act of "thumbing" the hammer was still a very common practice at that time......and this, being the mindset of those times would carry over to the conversion to automatics from revolvers.......and, thus, the basic reasoning of why JMB might have been thinking along these lines while designing the automatic pistol that eventually became the 1911........

I don't know if any of that is true, or not......but, it does seem to resonate to some degree when you consider the elements of single action revolver use, horse soldiers, and how these things may have played out in the traditional thinking of those times.......

It very well may be that the original intent of JMB might have been to thumb the hammer in order to bring the 1911 into action.......rather than C&L..........:dunno:

OK, 1911 experts..........does any of this make any sense to you?.........

ooc

 

[CajunBass]

I learned to decock a firearm, with a capgun when I was about five years old,. Didn't have any trouble then, and haven't had any sense.

You might argue that you don't need to. You might argue that it's not a good idea, but there is nothing "unsafe" about it, unless you happen to be particularly clumsey or uncordinated.

Hold the hammer back...pull the trigger...let the hammer down. What's unsafe?

 

[series1811]

What good is a DA/SA pistol if I can't carry it hammer down?

Do you have the gun loaded - round in chamber - but hammer down - if you need to put the gun into service quickly - just pull the trigger.


I am thinking CZ now - the CZ97B model does not have a manual decocker - so how would I get to the hammer down on a live round?

The manual says nothing about doing it.

Doesn't the "B" in CZ75B stand for blocker, as in firing pin blocker. I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that you are fine carrying a CZ75B with the hammer down on a live round (but not so much so on an older CZ75 (without the "B"), that should be carried in at least the half cock notch.

Somebody jump in if I have that wrong.

 

[Z71bill]

OMG - I am feeling stupid -

I read the new posts on this thread - then went to get a cup of coffee - and

IT HIT ME!

I now see where the term -

Don't go off half cocked - or He went off half cocked
originated :rofl:

I never really thought about it before. :embarassed:

 

[TN.Frank]

OMG - I am feeling stupid -

I read the new posts on this thread - then went to get a cup of coffee - and

IT HIT ME!

I now see where the term -

Don't go off half cocked - or He went off half cocked
originated :rofl:

I never really thought about it before. :embarassed:

That term is way older then the handguns we're talking about here. It's actually from the flintlock days.
Also, great read Flipper 348. I think I'll share that info with some of the guys on the other forum. Thanks.

 

[FLIPPER 348]

worth a 1000 words

 

[hogship]

worth a 1000 words

Yep.....no manual safety at all!:wavey:

Is that a doctored photo, or real? Tell us about that picture and it's place in the historical evolution of the 1911......

ooc

 

[TN.Frank]

That was the original 1910 version of what eventually became the 1911. JMB intended for the gun to be carried in Condition 2, hammer on half cock with a round in the chamber. Go figure.LOL.
The Army, fearing that someone may accidentally drop the hammer on the round in the chamber ask for a manual safety lever to be added to render the gun safe until the hammer could be lowered in a safe manner at a later time. Great pic, thanks.

 

[SauerChoi]

ah, no




From CW Clawson's book, Collectors Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of the 1911 and 1911A1: Page 7 -- In 1913 an addenda was added to the Army Ordnance Manual for the 1911 emphasizing not to carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and the safety lock on except in an emergency as it was not the intended purpose of the safety lock.



The 1910 prototype that was first submitted didn't have the thumb safety. The grip safety had been in place on the Colt contract pistols since 1905 as an add-on...and incorporated into the design shortly after.

The thumb safety...aka "Manual, slide locking" safety...was added at the US Cavalry's request so that a mounted trooper who found himself trying to hang onto a frightened horse could reholster the gun without shooting himself or the horse. Even in those unenlightened days, they realized that a man under stress might forget to take his finger out of the trigger guard before jamming the piece into a holster.

So...The thumb safety wasn't about cocked and locked carry. It was added for safe reholstering in an emergency. The cry: "Cocked and Locked, like JMB intended!" is erroneous. He had no such intent, nor did the US Army. If Browning had any intent at all, it was to carry the pistol on half-cock, and even alludes to it in the 1910 patents...calling it "The Safety Position" and goes on to give instruction on safely lowering the hammer with one hand.

Great information Flipper. thanks for sharing.

 

[TN.Frank]

Here's how I decock my 1911a1, been doing it this way for over 30 years, never had an ND and never will, too much "meat" between the hammer and firing pin to ever make the round in the chamber go off.

 

[hogship]

This whole thread has been an "awakening" for me. I'm not a stranger to the 1911, but I've never been a 1911 enthusiast, either. I've always kept a 1911 either unloaded, or cocked and locked.

Since this whole thing came up, I have practiced "thumbing" the 1911 hammer a few times, and it really seems a bit awkward doing it one handed.......much more so than with a revolver. (Try it, and tell us if that is correct from your perspective......try it with a revolver, as well, and compare.)

Now, try lowering the 1911 hammer one handed........With a round in the chamber, this could be downright dangerous to attempt with anything but two hands. Considering this, and applying that to mounted soldiers in the cavalry, I can see why the military wanted the safety to be added to the 1910 version.

On addition.......it seems to me that "cocked and locked", even though it may not have been the original intended method of carry, remains far superior to hammer down on half cock with loaded chamber. I say that, simply because thumbing the hammer is such an awkward thing to do with anything but two hands......This is not to say it can't be done one handed, but it is not very natural or comfortable to do it one handed......it's awkward.

In a combat role, the cocked and locked condition is just a better way to be prepared to fight........

ooc

Thanks to TNFrank and Flipper for their input on this.......

edit: I don't know why I feel this is necessary, but when I suggest to practice lowering the hammer one handed, I really do mean to test it out on an unloaded chamber.........

 

[TN.Frank]

For carry I prefer Condition 1 with my 1911a1 but when I stick it in the drawer for the night I don't like to keep in in C1, I feel better about it if it's in C2. I know, it's "crazy" but that's just how I am. Also, lowering the hammer with one hand is a foolish way to do it since as pointed out your thumb can slip off of the hammer and you'll get an ND, using two hands, as in my pics is a safe and totally sane way to do it and in over 30 years of doing it that way I've never had an ND AND I even lower the hammers on guns with a decock like that. I don't like just letting a hammer drop since hammer blocks can fail. Sig is about the only pistol where the decocker lets the hammer down slowly, that's one reason that I really like the Sig design.

 

[Cobra64]

+1.

The 1911 was originally and specifically designed to be carried hammer back with the thumb safety engaged on a loaded chamber.

It is not like that is a secret . . . :tongueout:

Apparently Colt didn't get the email. :tongueout:

 

[Cobra64]

Old single-actions, yes. Newer ones have a transfer bar to transfer the hammers energy to the bar and into the primer, unlike the older guns that the hammer rested on, or close to the primer.

Correct. Example:

 

[ithaca_deerslayer]

. . . I even lower the hammers on guns with a decock like that. I don't like just letting a hammer drop since hammer blocks can fail. Sig is about the only pistol where the decocker lets the hammer down slowly, that's one reason that I really like the Sig design.

Beretta 92 rotates the firing pin out of alignment as you turn down the decocker lever. Can't get any safer than that, can it?

 

[TN.Frank]

Beretta 92 rotates the firing pin out of alignment as you turn down the decocker lever. Can't get any safer than that, can it?

Nope, it can't but I still don't like having the hammer hit with full force. I'd rather hold it and lower it down slowly. That's one thing I really like about Sig, the decock holds the hammer back until you let the lever up so you can slowly lower the hammer.

 

[AA#5]

Series 70 is perfectly safe to have the hammer lowered with a round in the chamber, it's called Condition 2. The firing pin is actually shorter then the channel that it rides in so even with the hammer pushing on the back of the pin it'll still not contact the primer. It'll only hit the primer when the hammer hits it hard enough to drive it forward and it overcomes the firing pin spring tension.
I did have a Star 9mm that had a longer firing pin so that if you put the hammer down on the firing pin it would actually protrude into the primer, that was not a safe gun to carry with the hammer down but a 1911a1 is perfectly safe.
http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm

No it isn't safe. Any blow to the hammer can fire the gun. And it has.

 

[TN.Frank]

No it isn't safe. Any blow to the hammer can fire the gun. And it has.

With a Star that has a longer firing pin yes but with a Colt style 1911a1 with the inertia firing pin no way a blow to the hammer will fire the gun. Ain't going to happen, no how, no way.
You need to read this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-13620.html
Guy put the hammer down on his 1911a1 with a primed case in place, hit it with a mallet 10 times and nothing happened, not even a ding on the primer.