A detailed answer would require writing several paragraphs. In a nut shell, bullet design and more realistic testing.

 

MORE than several Paragraphs!!

 

Especially for 9mm, they've created ammunition that launches bullets that will reliably expand AND penetrate to over 12" in living tissue. Failure of the latter was blamed for the Miami disaster (whether or not that was the actual cause.)

 

Especially for 9mm, they've created ammunition that launches bullets that will reliably expand AND penetrate to over 12" in living tissue.

OK, but how exactly how have they've created ammunition that launches bullets that will reliably expand AND penetrate to over 12" in living tissue. Please tell me why you believe what you wrote above

 

I've read in forums (more times than I care to remember), that modern self-defense ammunition has greatly improved since the Miami FBI shootout in 1986?

What have manufacturers done specifically to improve self-defense ammunition since then?

Please share your thoughts with us. Please go… now!

Cheers!

I am basing this on memory so I could be wrong in the numbers .
I believe the “silver tip bullets “ , the same typeFBI agent Dove’s bullet which fell just short of the bad guy’s heart , only got 8 inches of penetration when tested in gel blocks .
As someone pointed out , modern ammo has to meet the FBI minimum of 12 inches in gel blocks to be approved for duty use by most departments

 

I am basing this on memory so I could be wrong in the numbers .
I believe the “silver tip bullets “ , the same typeFBI agent Dove’s bullet which fell just short of the bad guy’s heart , only got 8 inches of penetration when tested in gel blocks .
As someone pointed out , modern ammo has to meet the FBI minimum of 12 inches in gel blocks to be approved for duty use by most departments

People also forget that the round that didn't penetrate far enough for heart had already gone through an arm. The Winchester round was made to what the FBI at the time said in their specifications. The incident lead to our modern testing and manufacturers making bullets for the new testing

 

Your google fu skills are weak. Rather than typing my response out, I'll let AI- copilot do it:

The 1986 Miami FBI shootout was a tragic and pivotal moment that reshaped how law enforcement—and eventually civilians—approached self-defense ammunition. Since then, the improvements have been nothing short of revolutionary. Here's how things have evolved:

🔍 Lessons from the Miami Shootout

• The FBI agents were armed with 9mm rounds that failed to stop the assailants quickly, despite multiple hits.
• The lack of sufficient penetration and terminal performance led to a reevaluation of ammunition standards.

🧪 Birth of the FBI Ballistic Testing Protocol

To address these shortcomings, the FBI developed a rigorous testing protocol:

• Ballistic Gelatin Testing: Simulates human tissue to measure penetration and expansion.
• Barrier Tests: Bullets are fired through materials like heavy clothing, wallboard, steel, plywood, and auto glass before hitting gel.
• Ideal Performance: Penetration between 12–18 inches and expansion to 1.5× original diameter.

This protocol became the gold standard for evaluating duty and self-defense ammunition.

🚀 Technological Advancements in Ammunition

Modern self-defense rounds now feature:

• Bonded Bullets: Prevent jacket separation for deeper, more consistent penetration.
• Controlled Expansion: Hollow points engineered to expand reliably across various barriers.
• Improved Powders: Cleaner-burning and more consistent propellants for better accuracy and reduced recoil.
• Nickel-Plated Cases: Enhance feeding and extraction in semi-automatic firearms.

🔁 Caliber Evolution: From .40 S&W Back to 9mm

• After the shootout, the FBI adopted the .40 S&W for its perceived stopping power.
• By 2015, they returned to 9mm due to:
  • Better recoil control
  • Higher magazine capacity
  • Improved terminal ballistics thanks to modern bullet designs

Today’s 9mm rounds meet or exceed FBI standards, making them the preferred choice for many law enforcement agencies and civilians alike.

⚖ Real-World Impact

• Greater Consistency: Modern ammo performs reliably across different firearms and conditions.
• Enhanced Safety: Reduced risk of overpenetration while maintaining lethality.
• Broader Adoption: Civilian self-defense ammo now benefits from the same rigorous standards once reserved for federal agencies.

It’s a classic case of tragedy driving innovation. Want to dive deeper into specific ammo brands or compare popular self-defense loads?


Now here is how deepseek-AI responded:

The Miami FBI shootout in 1986 was a pivotal moment in the history of law enforcement and self-defense ammunition. Several factors have contributed to the improvement of modern self-defense ammunition since that event:

1. Ballistics Research: The aftermath of the shootout spurred extensive research into terminal ballistics—the study of how bullets behave upon impact. This research has informed the design of bullets to maximize stopping power while minimizing over-penetration and collateral damage.

2. Jacketed Hollow Points (JHP): While JHP ammunition existed before the shootout, advancements in design have led to more efficient expansion and weight retention. Modern JHPs are engineered for controlled expansion upon impact, ensuring a larger wound channel and better energy transfer to the target.

3. New Materials and Coatings: Innovations in materials have resulted in ammunition that performs consistently across a range of conditions. For instance, polymer-tipped projectiles aid in expansion and improve aerodynamics during flight. Additionally, improved casings and propellant formulations enhance reliability and reduce fouling.

4. Caliber Debate and Options: The caliber debate was notably influenced by the Miami shootout, leading to a reconsideration of what constitutes effective self-defense ammunition. This has resulted in a wider acceptance of various calibers, particularly the 9mm, which is now widely recognized for its effective balance of capacity and stopping power, thanks to advancements in ammunition technology.

5. Testing Standards: The FBI and other agencies have developed rigorous testing protocols for self-defense ammunition. The FBI’s ammunition selection process has prioritized rounds that perform well in gelatin tests, simulating human tissue, and tests for penetration and expansion. This has led manufacturers to create ammunition that meets stringent requirements for law enforcement and civilian use.

6. Increased Availability and Variety: The market for self-defense ammunition has grown, resulting in a wider variety of options for consumers. Manufacturers now produce specialized ammunition for different uses, whether for concealed carry, home defense, or law enforcement applications.

7. Training and Education: Awareness and education regarding ammunition selection and effectiveness have improved significantly. Law enforcement training facilities and civilian instructors often emphasize the importance of understanding ammunition performance, leading to better-informed choices in ammunition selection.

These advancements have collectively enhanced the effectiveness, reliability, and safety of self-defense ammunition since the Miami shootout, leading to better outcomes in critical incidents involving firearms.

Here's Gemini AI:


The 1986 Miami FBI shootout was a turning point for self-defense ammunition, revealing the limitations of older designs and prompting the development of the FBI Ammunition Test Protocol. Modern defensive ammo has significantly improved by focusing on controlled expansion, reliable penetration, and consistent performance after passing through barriers. [1, 2, 3]


Key improvements in modern ammunition since 1986:
Better, more consistent bullet performance
The Winchester Silvertip 9mm rounds used by FBI agents in the Miami shootout sometimes failed to penetrate deeply enough to hit vital organs. In response, the FBI developed a testing protocol that set a new performance benchmark for bullet effectiveness. Today's self-defense ammunition is specifically engineered to meet or exceed the FBI standard, ensuring it performs reliably in real-world scenarios. [1, 2, 4, 5, 6]
Controlled expansion for optimized wound channels
Older hollow-point designs, including those from the 1980s, could suffer from poor or inconsistent expansion. Modern advancements in bullet metallurgy and design, including pre-scored jackets and proprietary soft lead cores, ensure reliable expansion. This creates a larger, more damaging wound channel, which helps to neutralize a threat more quickly. [3, 7, 8, 9]
Improved barrier penetration
In the Miami shootout, some rounds failed to penetrate the suspects' car, providing them cover. The FBI protocol tests ammunition's ability to perform reliably after passing through several common barriers:

• Heavy clothing
• Plywood
• Sheet metal
• Auto glass [2, 3, 10]

Ammunition manufacturers have developed bonded bullets, where the lead core is permanently fused to the copper jacket. This prevents the bullet from deforming or coming apart when it hits a hard barrier, allowing it to maintain its mass and penetrate the target effectively. [2, 10, 11, 12]
Optimized powders and case design
Advancements in modern propellants have led to more efficient ammunition.

• Increased velocity: Modern powders produce higher and more consistent velocities without dangerous pressure spikes, making bullets perform more effectively.
• Reduced flash: Low-flash propellants minimize muzzle flash, which is a critical advantage during low-light encounters. [13, 14, 15]

New bullet designs for specialized use

• Fluted bullets: The Federal Expanding Full Metal Jacket (EFMJ) bullet was developed for law enforcement agencies that, due to policy, were not allowed to use hollow-point ammunition. Its smooth, rounded shape feeds reliably like a full metal jacket (FMJ) but expands upon impact to maximize effectiveness and minimize over-penetration.
• Specialized cartridge designs: Bullet performance improvements have made traditionally lower-power cartridges like the .380 Auto far more effective for self-defense than they were decades ago. [16, 17]

The 9mm comeback
The Miami shootout initially caused many law enforcement agencies to abandon the 9mm for larger calibers like the 10mm and subsequently the .40 S&W. However, thanks to improvements in bullet technology, modern 9mm hollow points now offer the ideal balance of effective terminal performance, manageable recoil, and high magazine capacity. As a result, the FBI has returned to the 9mm as its standard-issue sidearm cartridge. [18, 19, 20, 21]

AI responses may include mistakes.
[1] https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/self-defense-ammo/
[2] The FBI Miami Firefight: Part 2 - Firearms News
[3] The Origins, History, and Standards of the FBI Ballistic Protocol: Lessons from the Miami Shootout – CrossBreed Blog
[4] The Origins, History, and Standards of the FBI Ballistic Protocol: Lessons from the Miami Shootout – CrossBreed Blog
[5] https://www.federalpremium.com/the-federal-story/how-federal-changed-law-enforcement.html
[6] https://www.speer.com/speer-stories/how-fbi-protocol-testing-changed-ammunition.html
[7] How has modern 9mm ammunition technology improved since the 1980s?
[8] How has modern 9mm ammunition technology improved since the 1980s?
[9] https://www.berrysmfg.com/types-of-hollow-point-bullets/
[10] How Federal Changed Law Enforcement
[11] https://www.federalpremium.com/gettingstarted/first-hunts/how-to-select-the-right-rifle-bullet.html
[12] https://winchester.com/blog?filters=%7B'ids':%5B'%23h-turkey'%5D%7D
[13] 6 Reasons Why Modern Defensive Ammo is Better Than Ever - Handguns
[14] https://www.federalpremium.com/your-partner-in-protection/going-deeper.html
[15] https://www.dvidshub.net/news/495158/forging-future-combat-inside-calfex-with-next-generation-squad-weapon
[16] How FBI Protocol Testing Changed Ammunition
[17] https://www.police1.com/police-products/firearms/accessories/ammunition/articles/how-the-fbi-protocol-sparked-innovation-in-ammunition-Ri01kFiCnYXyP7JB/
[18] The Origins, History, and Standards of the FBI Ballistic Protocol: Lessons from the Miami Shootout – CrossBreed Blog
[19] https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...unned-as-ineffective/2015/10/31/d7d0b994-7e80-11e5-afce-2afd1d3eb896_story.html
[20] FBI After-Action Video Report on the 1986 Platt-Matix Gunfight
[21] https://danieldefense.com/wire/9mm-handguns-for-concealed-carry-vs-home-defense-whats-the-difference

 

Your google fu skills are weak. Rather than typing my response out, I'll let AI- copilot do it:

My Google-fu is just fine thanks. I was looking for member thoughts and specific details, not generic AI written materials that lacks facts and specific details. Thank you for your contribution though.

 

A lot of older hollow point ammo would expand but fail to penetrate enough to hit vital organs.
The newer crop fixes that.

 

OK, thanks! Now… please tell me all about the newer crop of ammo. What exactly has been done to enhance SD ammo performance? Newer, better powders? If so… which ones? Newer, better projectiles? Please tell me about this newer technology.

Most importantly, why do you believe in what you believe?

 

I've read in forums (more times than I care to remember), that modern self-defense ammunition has greatly improved since the Miami FBI shootout in 1986?

What have manufacturers done specifically to improve self-defense ammunition since then?

Please share your thoughts with us. Please go… now!

Cheers!

I think it has changed little to none. To the extent it has changed, it's only that the things that used to be common, like +P+ 9mm Hydra-Shok hollowpoints at Walmart, are a lot less common.

The alleged improvements in bullet technology are a myth the ammo industry has been selling for at least the nearly 40 years I've been carrying a handgun. If there has been any improvement, you'd need a microscope to find it.

 

The alleged improvements in bullet technology are a myth the ammo industry has been selling for at least the nearly 40 years I've been carrying a handgun. If there has been any improvement, you'd need a microscope to find it.

Thank you Bren. I feel like people just keep regurgitating what they hear about improved SD ammo, without any details to support such claims.

 

Blaming the ammo for the results of the Miami shootout was a scapegoat for ignoring the FBI's total failure in tactics. They were out hunting dangerous game. Nearly all the big guns were locked away in their trunks, unavailable when they found their targets and initiated the shootout. If each FBI car had at least one subgun accessible in the car, things might have gone very differently.

 

Thank you! I think you might be on to something

 

Well .40 S&W came about right?

 

Dang !! You beat me to it lol

 

I've read in forums (more times than I care to remember), that modern self-defense ammunition has greatly improved since the Miami FBI shootout in 1986?

What have manufacturers done specifically to improve self-defense ammunition since then?

Please share your thoughts with us. Please go… now!

Cheers!

What have manufacturers done specifically to improve self-defense ammunition since then? Number one. Controlled Expansion Projectiles. As opposed to standard cup & core ammo, controlled expansion jacketed hollowpoints expand more consistently and reliably in the living, breathing bodies both game animals and predatory feral human recidivists.

One of the earlier controlled expansion projectiles was the Hornady XTP which was designed to expand reliably across a wide range of velocities, preventing fragmentation at high speeds and initiating expansion even at lower speeds. This is achieved through a combination of a swagged lead core, a drawn gilding metal jacket with varying thickness, and precise serrations that weaken the jacket to initiate expansion and ensure deep penetration and weight retention.

Later developments used a bonded core along with serrations on bullet's nose including the Speer Gold Dot where the core is not actually bonded to a separate jacket but the "Jacket" is electroplated to the core and uses a larger than usual Hollowpoint which both resists clogging and aids expansion.

I would not include the light-for-caliber solid copper Phillip's-head projectiles here as a technological advancement because thus far, while they are capable of creating impressive hypothetical "Wound Channels" in ballistics gel, There is not yet the same amount of evidence that they preform as well as controlled expansion projectiles in the real world.

Another common misconception that needs to be pointed out is that while fans of the 9mm seem to think that controlled expansion projectiles have made the smaller 9mm the EQUAL of the larger 40 and 45 calibers, they overlook the inconvenient fact that the same controlled expansion projectiles are available in the larger heavier calibers as well.

 

I agree. Every advance in 9mm is also available in larger calibers, so although current 9 mm ‘may’ be as effective as 45 ACP was during the Miami shootout it isn’t as effective as present day 45 ACP. Although I have carried .38 special and 9 mm for self defense my ‘go to’ is 45.
That’s partly due to the caliber and partly due to my comfort level with the 1911 platform.

But who knows, Staccato may change my mind.

 

All I know is a 9mm bullet will blow your lungs out of your body.
Heard it from a reliable source.

 

The FBI shootout in Miami was far more than just a failure of a round of ammo... the tactics were all messed up and that is where most of the blame lies.

The last bad guy to die was killed with a S&W 13 3" with the 'FBI load'... it would not have been difficult to make a 9mm duplicate that at that time.. they chose instead to go to the 10mm but a 'lite' version fired from a very heavy gun (I know.. I have one of them!! Even Scully and Mulder didn't like the gun.)

Anyway I would not fret much with what gun they carried or what ammo they used. The failure was mostly in their tactics.

 

Yes but easier to blame the ammo & not tactics, training & skill set.

 

If there have been improvements, there's only 2 real possibilities and only 1 is new.

How fast it gets pushed and how it squishes once it hits.

I suspect most if not all of it comes from the latter.

 

A lot of it is in the penetration / expansion balance, and getting that right. It's also getting it to expand correctly through some barriers (heavy clothing, auto glass, etc.)

 

I found this interesting from the late, great Paul Harrell…

 

Not totally valid testing but does show the diff in old bullet v new bullet designs.

 

What took them so long?

 

Generally, FBI/Miami brought about a change of priorities in what we expect of duty/defense handgun loads. I'll try to summarize it in three paragraphs.

From the earliest hollow points to that firefight, we sought loads which would expend their energy and remain in the body- thereby mitigating dreaded (per gun writers of the time) 'over-penetration'.

During the gunfight itself, one of the agents landed a good hit which penetrated a suspect's bicep, chest and stopped just short of his heart. That round was a 9mm 115 grain Silvertip, a textbook example of ammo described in the paragraph above. That suspect was able to keep fighting, maneuver and kill several agents after being hit.

In the aftermath, government and the ammunition industry threw everything they had into R&D for better duty handguns & ammunition. Along the way, the 10mm got a jump-start, the 40 S&W was born and expected penetration 12-16 inches, in ballistic gelatin, was standardized across the board. This simple standardization of duty/defense loads is a bigger story than the loads themselves- which are changed every year in the endless quest for taxpayer and consumer dollars.

Epilogue- pick something with a LE proven track record, zero carefully at 50 yards and work tirelessly to dominate everything between there and nose-biting distance. Do not switch ammunition, especially bullet weight, without an identifiable, compelling reason. Your absolute mastery of that one gun and load will do far more to insure your survival, than anything else.

 

100% Only thing i would change is zero at 50y. Most people cant hit a house at 50y. Zero at 20y, still pretty much on at 50y, if you can land it.

 

The numerous references to AI responses indicates a lot of people are using AI to post responses about things with which they have no experience or knowledge.

 

The AI post had a very plausible response and listed cited references. What species are you saying was inaccurate?

 

Amazing how many smartalecky answers are here when the actual answers are easy to find if you don’t already know them.

The biggest drivers of improved performance are getting the softness of the lead just right by varying the amount of antimony, and improvements in the design and implementation of skiving in projectiles to more accurately control spread, upset and peeling.

Too hard of a lead core and it won’t expand. Too soft and the orojectile can come apart or peel back too far thus reducing expansion. Without advanced CAD and electronically controlled manufacturing these improvements would have been impossible in the 80s.

 

Computers have made are lives better.

I suppose that's a good answer to the question 'what took so long'...they had to develop computers in order to engineer good bullets...lol

 

The Miami shootout was not the only noted failure of the time. The 147hr Hi Shock (9MS I think), and Hydra-shok did not have great reputations either.

The agencies most happy with 9mm used a hot load, either the 9PBLE or the Winchester +P+ loading. There were still plenty of places issuing 9mm even when 40 was the dominant caliber.

Have there been some improvements with bullet designs? Absolutely! Bonded bullets, interlocking bands, cannelures, improved skiving, lead antimony all have been improved and tweaked over the years for better more consistent performance.

That being said, in the grand scheme of things, does it matter? Is it enough of a difference to really make a difference?

Assuming there are no hard intermediate barriers, if there was a way to test 9PBLE against say a 124gr +P Gold Dot I don't think you would see much of any difference in the real world.

I use a more modern bullet design for work (135gr +P Critical Duty) because I'm around vehicles all the time. This round outshines just about any other 9mm load I can find for barrier performance. Those older rounds generally don't have great performance after barriers.

9mm is the cheapest, highest capacity, easiest to shoot service round that exists.

 

“I use a more modern bullet design for work (135gr +P Critical Duty) because I'm around vehicles all the time. This round outshines just about any other 9mm load I can find for barrier performance. Those older rounds generally don't have great performance after barriers.”

CD expands a lot less than HST or GD when there’s not a hard barrier first. You’re giving up a lot of performance everywhere else in favor of better performance shooting someone in a car. Not to mention HST/GD will still go through a car door just fine but they won’t expand much once they hit tissue.

The question to ask is what scenarios are you most likely to need to shoot? If all I had to do was get bad guys underwater I’d want a harpoon, but I’m not about to give up my pistols just because I might have to defend against a bad guy in the river one day.

 

.45ACP starts out .451 inches and when using hollow points expands even larger.

9mm may expand to .451 or larger.

If the CNS is not taken out by 9mm, smaller holes are developed in the circulatory system.

45ACP creates larger holes so that the circulatory system empties faster.

CNS is the immediate system shut-off.

Heart or circulatory system is a timed shut-off.

.45ACP does an adequate job for both.

Of course the only reason to have a handgun is to fight one’s way to a rifle.

 

“Of course the only reason to have a handgun is to fight one’s way to a rifle.”

Interesting take. Am I missing out by not taking my AR when I walk the dog?

 

It seems that shootout may have given us the 10mm, the .40, and the .357 SIG. Interesting what is going on with these calibers nowadays.

 

Metallurgy and propellant used in today's ammo are better researched and developed. Its hard to deny that. But, of course, scoring hits is the biggest determinant of success.

 

Metallurgy and propellant used in today's ammo are better researched and developed.

How do you know this Longbow?

Are you sharing general information that you might have read somewhere, or can you give us specific examples of exactly HOW propellants and metalurgy have improved since 1986?

 

What's * different * ?

Depending upon which you consider the cart , and which the horse :

Greater ( near universal ) use of Bonding and/ or Mechanical Locking of core to jackets. Combined with the continuation of tweaking of the alloy of the core , and tweaking of the shape and size of HP Cavities .


Consistency . Performance within desired parameters, after passing thru a variety of intermeadate " stuff " , including nothing In-between.

Plus consistency between the Duty offerings of the major players in the market . Because they're all trying to conform to the parameters of the same set of Test Protocols.


Added - The above is about what * changed * . The degree of * improvement * is a different debate , inherently without a final resolution of defining the prioritizing and balancing of the various performance factors .

 

Improvement and standards like 12-18'' penetration & consistent expansion is irrelevant to some...

Some cite a simplified version of ammo selection... 😣

"Nobody volunteer to get shot with it".

If nobody volunteer to get shot with __ then __ is GTG for SD.

 

A ton back then their either didnt try or didnt have the technology(dont know which) to get a 9mm to expand and penetrate like today.. im assuming the technology as you got 1 of 2 things back then... low pen and expansion or a lot of recoil and minimal expansion.. this is all going off what we were told in academies since the later 80's and early 90's as they went over that shootout as a major turning point.. but im assuming back then they didnt have the bonding processes and alloys available now days and a way to make them work together.

Better tactics and training was offered post that Debacle as well as a ton more research got poured into ammo and guns and their capabilities. So yes, its all better now and yes the ammo is lightyears better now especially stuff like HST/GoldDots/GoldenSabres(the most recent), Critical Duty etc.. back then it was a lot of Revolvers still and 9mm that didnt work well(rounds meaning) shotguns that provided limited payload and range and no carbine type AR's that are prevalent these days., The north Hollywood shootout also changed it by showing that officers needed access to a AR/rifle type but this also went back to Miami too. The .40 S&W came out of this also the FBI for a short time going to 10MM..issued with its recoil for some agents is what brought about the .40S&W....

Duty carry as far as higher capacity semi autos, the round and their development to penetrate more/penetrate certain barriers and also expand was upgraded, duty carry of Rifles was upgraded from shotguns(though imo shotguns still have a spot and id not be sad to have BOTH options).

9MM simply is going strong again now mostly out of cost and that the advancements in the 9MM round brought it up to being close to that of the .40S&W that it replaced.. sure its a reaction to BUDGETARY concerns but its relatively close from what ive seen from a few comparisons(yes the .40 is still SLIGHTLY better but there isnt a giant gap anymore)

 

If you haven't already (or recently), watch