Well, it's a pistol. One held like one holds a rifle. Shorter the barrel, that's what happens. There'll be gives-and-takes. "At Distance?" It's a pistol. CQB and all guns are loud.

If the noise is an issue, go to a different gun range. Otherwise, if the SHTF, noise-level will only will bother you the most!

A suppressor would definitely be nice, but then you just went from pistol into the rearview mirror in terms of firearm length.

Now, I don't know ANYTHING about suppressor-effected performance, so I'm just giving you my off-the-cuff thoughts (w/a little guff for fun). Anyway, just my opinion. I want an AR pistol as my "next." It will fulfill a very important role in my self defense sensibilities.

 

Don't drop under 14.5" for 5.56. Larue makes some great kits with a nice comp pinned and welded. 5.56 indoors from a 8" barrel is instant deafness. Not a practical tool at all.

For home defense I've seen very little gain from pistol AR's. 14.5 is plenty small. Otherwise consider a Scorpion or PS90.

Another option is .300 blk. All .300blk barrels are piston gas, and it uses pistol powder, so it's perfect for short barrels. But they're very finicky with mags. 20 round metal mags seem to be best. .300blk solves all of the 5.56 short barrel problems, the trade off is mag issues.

 

Here’s how I figure it. If I end up shooting my AR pistol inside my house I’ve bigger issues than the noise. I’m not trying to be a smart a**. I have flash cans on my AR pistols (KAK, KX-5, etc) and they do help at the indoor range as they push the blast away from you. I’m not sure now much they would help in a house though. I have 3- 5.56 pistols with 10.5” barrels and 2-300 BO pistols one 8” and one 8.5”. They all shoot well. I’ve thought about a shorter barreled 5.56 but I’ve heard they are pretty obnoxious to shoot.

 

The increased perceived noise level is due to two things. Muzzle closer to shooter and unburned powder. would not go shorter than 11.5” with a 5.56 upper

as far as AR pistols, I prefer them in 9mm.

 

Ok, so I think that pretty much answers my questions - it's not so much power drop off in a HD situation as it is the noise level?


Here's why I am asking all this - I am considering getting one of the SA Saint Victor AR Pistols like this -

https://www.springfield-armory.com/...armory.com/saint-series/saint-victor-ar-15-rifles/saint-victor-556-ar-15-pistol

But from what everyone is saying, firing it in a house in a SD situation, forget it? I don't want to have to put on hearing protection in a HD situation to stop me from being able to hear an intruder also?

Thanks -

 

Ok, so I think that pretty much answers my questions - it's not so much power drop off in a HD situation as it is the noise level?


Here's why I am asking all this - I am considering getting one of the SA Saint Victor AR Pistols like this -

https://www.springfield-armory.com/...armory.com/saint-series/saint-victor-ar-15-rifles/saint-victor-556-ar-15-pistol


View attachment 735840



But from what everyone is saying, firing it in a house in a SD situation, forget it? I don't want to have to put on hearing protection in a HD situation to stop me from being able to hear an intruder also?

Thanks -

Eric -
Funny. I picked up the Saint you are considering about 8 months ago. Loved shooting it - it was a blast - literally. All things considered - i.e. loss of terminal velocity w/ short barrel, loudness in HD situation, etc. ---- I ended up picking up an Angstadt Arms UPD-9 - 6 in barrel. I sold the Saint a week ago. I have decided for me - no AR pistol in 556 with a barrel below 10.5"

 

Why not get a Pistol caliber carbine for HD? Wont be as loud as a rifle cartridge indoors? There are some nice handgun cartridge AR's out there. :flag:

 

Kinda what I’m thinking. A suppressor even comes back into the picture because barrel length can be really short. Something like a 4” barrel with heavy bullets and a can would probably be just about hearing-safe, if I had to guess. I’m not in the NFA game yet, but the thought of a setup like this makes me want to take the plunge.

 

I wouldn't go below 11.5" as it seems to be a sweet spot right before a significant performance drop-off. My 11.5 pistol is my go-to AR. I built a 7.5" "just for fun" but the performance was so dismal I rebuilt it into a 11" x39.

I weighed using my 11.5 for HD but it is still incredibly loud. I've moved to a PCC (well, PCP really) for HD. Super small and light, easy to shoot, and noise levels similar to a standard pistol. As always, YMMV.

 

All barrel lengths are going to be loud.

Here's an interesting link to some testing.

A 10" barrel was reported at 164.3dB and a 16" barrel was reported at 163.3dB

https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgov...ob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2010/armament/WednesdayCumberlandPhilipDater.pdf

 

MY wifes AR pistol is a 10.5" 1-7 twist 5.56 upper with a .750 gas port at a 7" and I use a 4.6oz H2 buffer . Its reliable with a variety of 55gr to 72gr 223 ammo and a number of different brands 5.56 ammo 55gr to 62gr .

 

I have a 16", 10.5" and 7.5", I wouldn't say one is excessively louder than another. My 12.5" 308 pistol though....woof!

 

I have one .223 set up for Defense. A KelTec RDB with a suppressor on it. Pistols, shotguns and PCCs are before that though.

I agree with the 14.5" as short as I would go on a .223 AR, but mine are 16" with one 17" and one 18". Concussion and operation is more of a concern than terminal performance. I've shot 11.5 and 14.5 in matches and as long as you know the holds, not a big deal.

 

300 blackout in a subsonic flavor is probably your best bet for a HD pistol when it come to sound. Question then becomes, is a subsonic round what you really want for HD? Some say yes, but most say go supersonic for any real defense situation.

 

I've posted similar stuff in other threads, but here goes.
My 9" 556 SBR would be one of the last firearms I would choose for home defense. Especially without the suppressor. It is insanely loud and the blast would temporarily blind in a low light situation. I'd much rather use 300 BO.
Subsonic 300 BO has much better terminal performance than 45 ACP and the noise and blast aren't any worse. Of course, suppressed it's fantastic. It's also a very versatile cartridge and it's designed for short barrel performance.
If you don't want to go to the expense of 300 BO I'd go with a PCC. I have all 3 options, and for the most part would choose the PCC. It's the least expensive to leave out of the safe, the ammo is cheap and effective, it's small and light. etc.

 

Well having been in a house(kitchen) when someone lit off a 12G! well it was darn loud. I had a AR pistol, it was that KelTec AR pistol. At the range I was shooting 55G. The first time I fired it was loud even with head phones, loud enough that several people came over to see what I was shooting. I really can't imagine shooting inside a house. I keep a pair of electronic head phones at my bed side.

 

So basically we are all in agreement here then -

Inside the house / HD -

- Handgun in decent SD / HD caliber (9mm and up)
- Shotgun
or
- 16" .223 or up (AR)



OUTSIDE the house / backyard distance / longer

- 16" or up AR in .223 or larger caliber long gun / shotgun ????



Basically trying to use below 16" AR in the house is just asking for hearing damage or worse?

Thanks -

 

So basically we are all in agreement here then -

Inside the house / HD -

- Handgun in decent SD / HD caliber (9mm and up)
- Shotgun
or
- 16" .223 or up (AR)



OUTSIDE the house / backyard distance / longer

- 16" or up AR in .223 or larger caliber long gun / shotgun ????



Basically trying to use below 16" AR in the house is just asking for hearing damage or worse?

Thanks -

Whatever works for you, first.

I generally don't think 16" .223/5.56 for home defense. A little too long/slow for me if I'm thinking fast target acquisition or maneuvering around corners (but what do I know - never been, or realistically expect to be in that position). Handgun or UDP-9 if anyone is overunning my (urban) house.

 

Though more expensive than your average AR pistol, I chose the CZ BREN 805 pistol instead of going the AR route, which I'm currently waiting on a form 1 approval to SBR; mine is the earlier PS1 model chambered in 5.56x45 with an 11.0" barrel, and with it's adjustable gas piston operation (which I haven't had to touch) and Stanag mags it's been 100% reliable, suprisingly accurate, and operates very, very smoothly:

The newest CZ BREN 2 Ms pistol models were designed with a lighter in weight aluminum receiver and use a carbon fiber reinforced polymer lower; they're available chambered in 5.56x45 in barrel lengths of 14", 11" and 8", while the 7.62x39 versions are available in 14", 11" and 9" barrel lengths. These piston operated designs are awesome because they can have a longer barrel than an AR pistol while enjoying a shorter OAL because their operation does not require a length stealing buffer tube to operate, and with their adjustable gas operation, tuning them for supressors are generally an easier task. I believe the below example to be the 9" barreled 7.62x39 CZ 2 Ms model:

These CZ pistols are every bit as accurate and reliable as the unnecessarily and prohibitively expensive B&T APC223 - at nearly half the cost, and IMHO are more of a bargain than the SIG MCX series pistols. Check 'em out before you just blindly buy into the AR pistol scene because it's a cheaper alternative, and I think you'll be impressed with the CZ offerings.

Truth About Guns CZ BREN 2 Ms review...

 

So basically we are all in agreement here then -

Inside the house / HD -

- Handgun in decent SD / HD caliber (9mm and up)
- Shotgun
or
- 16" .223 or up (AR)

OUTSIDE the house / backyard distance / longer

- 16" or up AR in .223 or larger caliber long gun / shotgun ????

Basically trying to use below 16" AR in the house is just asking for hearing damage or worse?

Thanks -

Generally. I don't have any .223 ARs set up for Defense without a suppressor. That said, I have run house clearing drills in shoot houses with pistols, shotguns, and ARs in .223 and other calibers. They all have pros and cons. I can run an AR faster than a pistol, even in a closed in space. But even with muffs and safety glasses, I hate it. Gas, smoke and noise is disconcerting to say the least. A few rounds in a closed room and target ID goes way down. One reason I am a fan of shoot houses with a lid as opposed to open above. Shotguns are a little better, pistols a little better, PCCs a lot better, suppressed PCCs are the best of the lot (and 300 BO is similar) The PCC allows you to go from contact to 100 yards with no gap. Outside, I can't imagine using an AR in .223 on my property at all. If away, and I felt a long gun was going to be a benefit, still would opt for a suppressed .223.

 

For 9mm AR pistols around 8 inch barrel is the best balance. For 5.56 many say 11.5 inch is the shortest you should go before velocity really starts to drop off.

 

For 9mm pistols around 8 inch barrel is the best balance.

Both of my suppressed 9mm PCCs have 8.5" barrels.

 

My ideal would be @10” with suppression. In 300/blackout...

Failing that a Extar E?9 is what my stimulus check is funding. @$450 used 9mm Glock mags... I might get a fake can for it. I have heard some suggest (while it does not suppress. It seems to funnel the sound forward slightly). IDK if true. But trying it with plugs shooting out from inside... it might, or might not.
Thing is staying in place, waiting is my plan. IF I think I hear someone 911 is then plan. If I’m not sure, suspect it’s animals.... then searching is option.
I go back, forth. Block door, or use hallway as fatal funnel. (If they won’t leave). Sadly this bedroom I can only use one side of door. When upstairs I had 3 good options.

 

I'm running 11.5" and I wouldn't go shorter--it's actually quite wieldy and honestly, barely short enough to not worry about my support hand crossing the muzzle accidentally. I wouldn't plan to shoot a 16" in a house; G19 w/33rd mag can take care of what I need inside.

 

I very much prefer my 10.5" 5.56. I've got a flash can on it and it is no louder behind the rifle than any of my 16" barrels. With my ammo I don't need to worry about terminal performance till well beyond 200 yards.

Esse quam videri

 

This has been my impression and utility as well.

 

My short barreled ARs mostly hover around the 10.5" length with only a couple that are longer.

.22 - 7.5" & 9"
9mm - 8" & 10.5" (2)
10mm - 10.5"
.45ACP - 9"

5.56 - 10.5"
6.5G - 12"
.300AAC - 10.5"
7.62x39 - 10.5"
.450BM - 12"

The rifle caliber ARs are meant for hunting, and would not be my first grab for self-defense in my home. All (except the .450BM) have silencers available. The .450BM and all the pistol calibers have linear comps when not using a silencer.

 

I do not have an AR pistol, but I do have an AK pistol.

It is so loud, that even with ear plugs and over the ear hearing protection, it gives me a headache when I shoot it. I also can feel the concussion on my chest.

This is at an OUTDOOR range.


I understand AR pistols are similar in their loudness.

In my opinion, it makes them useless for home defense.

If you fire it in your house, you are guaranteed to suffer hearing damage.

If you put a suppressor on it, it becomes as long, or longer than a rifle.

Better to use a 16" AR, or just a regular hand gun.

 

I built an 10.5" AR pistol but have not been able to even shoot it yet -

I wanted one because I wanted one - I was just trying to remember what I was going to use it for - and all I could come up with was to put a smile on my face.

I have read that 62 and 75 grain Gold Dots do OK out of this length barrel -

Inside my house - most likely I would be using a Versa Max tactical or a G21 --

I have wondered if - a 10.5" barrel shooting .223 with a flash can outside at night - would give the bad guys a little taste of shock and awe - or would it blind me?

 

I have wondered if - a 10.5" barrel shooting .223 with a flash can outside at night - would give the bad guys a little taste of shock and awe - or would it blind me?

Theoretically, the recipient gets the shock, the deliverer gets the awe.

 

Not even a 22lr from a handgun is hearing safe in doors. The point is to live so unless you have silencers on all your hd weapons and the proper load you ether shoot what's in the hand to save your life or RUN !!

 

Jumping from 2 stories isn’t safe, nor is jumping from 5 stories. That doesn’t mean they’re the same level of unsafe. Just saying...