[speedsix]

Recoil and muzzle flash are not good indicators of down range effect. Most people assume that the harder something recoils and the more flash and bang it is, the more powerful it is.

Almost all 9mms are semi-autos and they are very easy to shoot with light recoil. I used to own a Ruger Speed Six revolver in 9mm and I was shocked at the recoil and muzzle blast the first time I fired it. I was expecting the mild mannered 9mm I have been used to but it was closer to a hot .38spl or a mild .357 mag than 9mm. Ballistics bears this out.

A hot 9mm out of a short bbl is way better than any .38spl and gets into the .357 mag range.

9mm is a wolf in sheep's clothing. I did my own ballistic testing with 9mm, .40 and .45 and I came away impressed by 9mm. A FMJ 9mm out penetrates any 40 or 45. A good JHP 9mm penetrates well and expands reliably due to the high velocity. Some slower .45acps won't expand and if they do, they may not have sufficient penetration if you have to shoot through layers of thick clothing or fat.

I wouldn't want to be armed with a .45acp hollow point if facing a really big guy with a thick leather jacket on. 9mm will be the better stopper for any situation where you may need to shoot through anything to get to your target. In the real world, you are going to have to shoot through something, be it clothing, car door, drywall or whatever.

 

[speedsix]

I'm new here to the site, writing from Afghanistan, home in December! Alright, here is my question, I just bought a 357 SS Rossi 6 shot revolver with a 2 inch barrel. When I carry this for personal protection, after reading everything you all wrote in this thread, it seems that I should carry a heavy grain bullet with a hot load to maximize the potential of the short barrel. Is this right? My reasoning is that a heavy bullet will make more use of the powder in that it will respond slower than a lighter grain bullet, and receive more energy before leaving the barrel. I know I have not said this with any technical understanding so please be kind.
God bless and thanks for your answers.
Dave:embarassed:

That has been the thinking with .38spl for a long time. The FBI load is 158gn and is considered better than the lighter and faster bullets.

The matter is up for much debate but out of a snub nose, that seems to be the consensus as far as there is one.

Most people will tell you that you are just as well off carrying +P.38spl ammo in your snub nose .357 because power is very nearly equal but you have much less muzzle flash and recoil.

 

[agent clark]

I'm not sure where to find them, but I saw numbers for .357 out of a Coonan 1911, and its numbers were a bit higher than typical revolver numbers. I was also told that commercial magnum loads "should" be similar, there is no +P for magnum.

 

[mr00jimbo]

I wouldn't want to be armed with a .45acp hollow point if facing a really big guy with a thick leather jacket on. 9mm will be the better stopper for any situation where you may need to shoot through anything to get to your target. In the real world, you are going to have to shoot through something, be it clothing, car door, drywall or whatever.

Where 9 millimeter gets a reputation of being "weak", the .45 gets a reputation of being a "bad penetrator"
But in both cases, tests will show otherwise. Both have amazing and awful loads.

 

[Glock500]

I can't imagine a 9mm, even in plus p plus, being equivalent to a 357 magnum load. The 357 magnum, shooting it, is so much louder and more recoil, than any 9mm i've ever shot.

Loud and recoil do not equal more energy.

A 4 inch barreled 9mm, firing 125 grain Plus P ammo, can get around 1240 fps at the barrel.

A 2.5 inch .357 Mag can get very near the same.

Note that, due to the differences in how they are measured, the two have about the same length of barrel from the tip of the bullet, to the crown of the muzzle.

No 9mm +p, in the same bullet weights as a .357, regardless of it's barrel length, is going to match a .357 out of a revolver with a 4 inch or more barrel.

 

[Haldor]

This whole thread appears to be a joke to me. Gold Dots in a .357. Must be one of those sales clerks at Wally World making sales. Why would one carry a heavy revolver with a light .357 load? The .38 Special will work. Hello.

Question: Can you load down a .357 to be less than a 9mm?
Answer: Yes, but who in their right mind would want to.

What .357 mag round gives more than 1050 FPS out of a 2" barrel?

The Cor Bon 115g JHP+P 9mm gives 1134 FPS from a 2" barrel
The Cor Bon 115g DPX load in .357 mag (the fastest loaded tested in the links below) only gives 1050 FPS.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9mmluger.html

In real short barrel guns the advantage swings even stronger to the 9mm.
Para LDA Carry 9 (3" barrel) = 1281 FPS.

I agree, a 125g JHP out of a 6" .357 mag is going to totally kick the butt of a 124g FMJ 9mm out of a service 9mm, but that is not what is being discussed here.

The 9mm is not limited to FMJ and in short barrel pistols a hot 9mm is going to give more velocity for the same bullet weight with a lot less recoil and muzzle flash than any .357 mag load. That makes it a much better choice for a pocket pistol.

 

[P30]

Wow, I'm surprised at the results. I would've said .357 mag would win that easy.

 

[GlockFish]

I'm new here to the site, writing from Afghanistan, home in December! Alright, here is my question, I just bought a 357 SS Rossi 6 shot revolver with a 2 inch barrel. When I carry this for personal protection, after reading everything you all wrote in this thread, it seems that I should carry a heavy grain bullet with a hot load to maximize the potential of the short barrel. Is this right? My reasoning is that a heavy bullet will make more use of the powder in that it will respond slower than a lighter grain bullet, and receive more energy before leaving the barrel. I know I have not said this with any technical understanding so please be kind.
God bless and thanks for your answers.
Dave:embarassed:

IMO your thinking is correct. I carry an SP101 2" barrel with 158gr 357's.
I want the fastest, heaviest rounds as possible. Lighter rounds don't penetrate as well as heavy rounds.

 

[Berto]

Wow, I'm surprised at the results. I would've said .357 mag would win that easy.

It does. People will cherry pick the hottest 9mm loads and compare to the mildest .357mag to validate their point, but apple to apples the .357mag is the strongest.....the tradeoff is how much blast and recoil you're willing to accept, that's where the 9mm can be a benefit.
The best max effort 9mm +P will drive a 124gr about 1200fps in the rare 2" snubby that uses them. The best max effort .357mag 125gr will best that by 150-200fps. The best numbers from even a 3.5" G26 still won't match it.
It's the simple truth.
Most people don't want the blast and noise of such loads (DT, BB) in a snubby, so they opt for a watered down med velocity load.

 

[oldman101946]

Ok, let me put it this way.

Stand in front of me at any given distance. I will shoot you three times. Once each with a 9mm, a .357 mag and a .45acp. Then you tell me which hurt the worst.

The speed of a projectile is less important than the size of the projectile. Being hit by a marble traveling at 180 feet per second will not hurt nearly as bad as being hit by a syrup bucket traveling at 90 feet per second.

The shock value of a .357 will be far greater than that of a 9mm. I have personally witnessed this on two occasions as officers using 9mm and officers using .357 fired at the same subject. The 9mm often were not noticed by the perps while the .357 made a noticible effect on them.

Step up to a .45acp or .45LC and you have almost an instant cessatation of any aggression. One must remember that either of these projectiles are much slower than either the 9mm or the .357 but have a more dramatic effect on the target.

Or we can look at it this way, shot placement is most important. When vital organs are struck, there will be immediate reaction no matter what the caliber, speed or grain bullet. In a marginal hit, the benefit goes to the larger caliber, even though the bullet travels slower.

Now say you are driving a compact car through an intersection. Would you rather be hit broadside by a motorcycle travelling at 50 mph or a semi travelling at 30mph. Size does make a difference no matter what your wife tells you.

 

[Haldor]

It does. People will cherry pick the hottest 9mm loads and compare to the mildest .357mag to validate their point, but apple to apples the .357mag is the strongest.....the tradeoff is how much blast and recoil you're willing to accept, that's where the 9mm can be a benefit.
The best max effort 9mm +P will drive a 124gr about 1200fps in the rare 2" snubby that uses them. The best max effort .357mag 125gr will best that by 150-200fps. The best numbers from even a 3.5" G26 still won't match it.
It's the simple truth.
Most people don't want the blast and noise of such loads (DT, BB) in a snubby, so they opt for a watered down med velocity load.

Berto did you look at the data from Ballistics by the inch? They aren't cherry picking weak .357 mag ammo. From a 2" barrel, the hottest .357 mag round had lower velocity than the hottest 9mm from a similar sized gun. It must have to do with the powder used. The 9mm is simply more efficient from short barreled guns than .38 or .357 mag. It doesn't matter how much powder gets burnt after the bullet leaves the barrel.

 

[matt c]

These are the gold dot SB short barrel loads for small guns tested out of small guns.
9mm +P gold dot out of a 3.5 inch barrel
http://le.atk.com/ballistics/speer/detail.aspx?loadNo=23611&firearm=2

38 +P 2 inch barrel
http://le.atk.com/ballistics/speer/detail.aspx?loadNo=53921&firearm=2

.357 magnum out of 2 inch
http://le.atk.com/ballistics/speer/detail.aspx?loadNo=23917&firearm=2

A .380 seems to hit almost as hard as a .38 special here...
http://le.atk.com/ballistics/speer/detail.aspx?loadNo=53606&firearm=2

Am I missing something here? I used to own 4 .357 magnums and they kick harder than almost anything else I have ever owned. Out of a pocket sized piece, will a mini 9mm hit harder than a .357 magnum out of a snub nose?

With that said I currently carry the Kahr .380. I want to upgrade to something with more power so it takes less shots with good close range placement on human and animal attackers. This will serve as my back up front pocket piece allways and sometimes as my primary if I have to carry a Glock 27 on my ankle.

The Glock 27 is too large for me to pocket carry. The kahr is nice but gave me problems.

Im stuck between:

Kahr PM9
PM40
Pm45

Keltec PF9

S&W M&P 340 .357 mag J frame

Thanks for the replys in my j frame thread. Has any of you carried the other guns listed here other than a j frame or both to compare? Keep in mind it must be close to a Kahr 380 in size b.c a Glock 27 prints way too much for a front pants pocket.

For the price of the Smith I am considering the Roughbar 9mm as well but the sights on it are a joke. Dont know if I could spend 1100 on a gun with joke sights. Sure this is 3 foot point shoot gun but there is the chance I might have to push it out to 25-30 yards.

If it makes a difference I shoot the Ruger LCp and Kahr 380 good at 25 yards, much better than I used to shoot my 2 inch Ruger SP101 that I sold based on its weight.

Will any of these be as easy or very similar to front pocket carrying a Kahr P380 in regular jeans? It would be my back up to my Glock 27 on ankle, Glock 30 in smart carry, 1911 IWB, or a glock 27 in my side cargo pocket.

I have very strong forearms and wrists so I dont mind recoil. I would get the Kahr pm40 is it is smaller and easier to carry than a Jframe or Keptec pf9. I just dont want something similar to my glock 27 b.c if its that big I would prefer the 27.

If you really want the real world scoop....your plenty protected with the Kahr 380, so, just carry that. In the world of paranoia and zombies and boogie men...get a 10mm.

 

[Kegs]

Let me solve this dilemma for you with two words:

TEN MILLIMETER.

:tongueout:

 

[Collo Rosso]

Now say you are driving a compact car through an intersection. Would you rather be hit broadside by a motorcycle travelling at 50 mph or a semi travelling at 30mph. Size does make a difference no matter what your wife tells you.

Unfortunately twice I have seen a motorcycle go through the drivers door killing driver and passenger. Neither a compact car. Watched a Mercedes get broadsided by semi and the women driver step out of the car. Hard to compare this with ballistics. Speed, point of impact, structure of vehicle...to many variables...like ballistics.

 

[Alchemy]

Gun Digest did an article about the very thing you are discussing a few years back. They compared a S&W 3913 with Cor Bom 115gr. and 125gr. 9mm ammo against a 2.5 inch barreled .357 Magnum. Remember although the 3913 has a 3.5 inch barrel on an auto the chamber is included in the measurement. Not so on a revolver. To make a long story short the 110gr. .357 vs. the 115gr. 9mm and the 125gr. .357 vs. the 125gr. 9mm the 9mm came out the winner. Please note both 9mm loads are +P. But still the 9mm loads both had more velocity hence more energy than equivalent .357 loads.
Please also note that as you get up into the heavier loads and if you use longer barrels the 9mm even in P+ begins to lose it's edge. Obviously the 9mm can't handle a 180gr. bullet. But people really get hung up on names. The term "Magnum" was used because a Magnum bottle of Champagne is larger than a standard bottle. The .357 is a longer and stronger case than the .38 from which it came. It allows for heavier powder loads and bullets than the .38 thus a more powerful round. Magnum is basically a marketing term used very effectively. I wonder if it or the .44 Magnum would have inspired such reverence if it had been called the .38+P+or .44+P+?
The 9mm snubby gives superior performance than either .38+P or .357 in the 115gr.-125gr. bullet weights. With less muzzle blast and flash. Never did understand why the little guns weren't more popular. Especially as a back up if you carry a 9mm auto. Since we use speed loaders the half/full moon clips don't really seem a problem. The early .357 Magnums got hugh muzzle velocities because they used 8" barrels.
Back then ammo makers weren't as worried about lawsuits as they are now. The newer .357 loads are usually not as hot as the loads are listed by the manufacturer because they are tested from pressure barrels. Same for most calibers BTW. Some companies due make their loads hot. Usually Speer Gold Dots, Winchester Rangers and so on are on the hot side from the maufacturers. That's why so many of these loads are supposedly LEO only. Basically from what I understand the LEO's agree to not sue the above companies if their guns are blown up by the loads. The real worry is older guns such as war treasure Lugars blowing up Cor Bon advertise that their loads are hot. Also specialty companies like Double Tap ammo live up to the catridges full potential for certain. But are they worth it?
When you get into a smaller lighter gun which is the way lots of folks are going the hot loads start to get difficult to contol. Muzzle blast and recoil increase. Since no handgun round is a real "manstopper" we have to count on landing good accurate shots and quick follow up the only thing that works. Same is true of a centerfire rifle. Although the power and velocity do much more damage than any handgun can. For instance a rifle bullet traveling close to the spine can disrupt it severly because of it's larger wound path even though it may not hit the spine. Is it worth losing some of your ability to fire faster follow up shots? Only the shooter can deside that.
But the 9mm +P and +P+ rounds in the light weights do give better ballistics than the short barreled .357 Magnum. Years ago when I did security work in the private sector a carried several different .357 snubbies. When at the range practicing the guns would produce such a muzzle blast and flash that some guys came over to see if my gun had blown up. So if you get say a S&W 3913 or a SIG 239 9mm and load it with good 9mm ammo of the +P or +P+ variety you've got a gun that is flatter than a .357 magnum, from the shorter barrels you have better ballistics, is easier to cntrol, and has more rounds. To me a win-win. The little snubbies still have a use though. I have a S&W 642 loaded with Gold Dot 135gr. bullets. In hot weather it is very light and easy to conceal. In the winter you can carry it in your coat pocket and cover someone and appear to be trying to warm you hands. If need be with the hammerless you can fire through the coat. Test it first though. Some coats will be set on fire once you do let one loose inside it. In the winter it may be hard to get to your main gun with all the layers to keep us warm. Your BUG which is what I use my 642 for may become defacto your primary gun.
So as others have said if you are not drinking the "Magnum Kool-Aid" yes small 9mm with good loads offer many advantages over the .357 snubbies. If you go to something like a G26 or XD9sc you have twice to three times
the ammo load than a snubby. I sure someone will come along and jump on this thread. They've got "Magnumitis". Nothing you can do with a tue believer. SIG sure has tried to profit off the Magnum with the .357 SIG round. And really regardless of what the box says you usually get about 50-75 f.p.s. compared to the 9mm +P+. And you lose a round or two. Although I do see a use for the .357 SIG by State Troopers and police that are in rural areas and might have to take a long shot. The trajectory of the round is very flat. Your aim at 100 yards is about the same as 25. Plus the bonded bullets penetrat autoglass and steel very well.
So time for the flame suit! Go ahead Magnumizers fire away. Even though I'm quoting from Gun Digest and my own personal Chrono's of the above mentioned bullets. Like the .45 te .357 has an incredible reputation. But in the end they are lead and copper pellets that make holes in people. Enough rounds in the right places with sufficient penetration from any caliber can save you. Don't worry about the caliber of the week. It too is often just a marketing gimmik. Of course that is th American way.

Sir, have you ever heard of a paragraph?

It's posts like this that I don't even bother to read. :wavey:

 

[matt c]

R
I wouldn't want to be armed with a .45acp hollow point if facing a really big guy with a thick leather jacket on. 9mm will be the better stopper for any situation where you may need to shoot through anything to get to your target. In the real world, you are going to have to shoot through something, be it clothing, car door, drywall or whatever.

:rofl:
yeah, leather jacket is a potent bullet stopper...
WOW..:upeyes:

 

["Cold Dead Hands" !]

Sir, have you ever heard of a paragraph?

It's posts like this that I don't even bother to read. :wavey:

He wrote it all in one breath !

But, he made a good point.

 

[Haldor]

Let me solve this dilemma for you with two words:

TEN MILLIMETER.

:tongueout:

What model J-frame comes in 10 mm?

 

[Aceman]

I don't know. Let's shoot someone COM with each and ask.

 

[AK_Stick]

terminal energy. If you have two cartridges, one small and fast, the other slow and heavy, with identical muzzle energy, the slow and heavy will have greater terminal energy every time.

This has been proven time and again, on paper and in the real world.

Go heavy and go home.

The problem with that, is A. It doesn't take into account the loss of gas from a revolver. And B. they're not starting with identical muzzle energy.


Small and fast, often prevails over the slow and heavy. And when it doesn't prevail, it often equals.