First, the mono metal bullet will be longer than a lead core bullet of the same wt, so they will also have diff reloading data. As to terminal performance, there is no lead core to slip, so in theory, the bullet will perform more uniformly in all test scenarios. Reality, sometimes the HP petals break off & you get a caliber solid left to penetrate.

 

...Reality, sometimes the HP petals break off & you get a caliber solid left to penetrate.

Fred, I will ask you if you think this is because in a given load that the copper bullet was driven too fast for its "window?' I am going to guess yes as M. Shovel at Corbon told me this once related to a DPX question I had. I believe he said that each Barnes copper bullet weight/cal. combo had a "sweet spot" and driven too fast the petals would merely lay back. Perhaps this is where the lost petals happen.

 

Petals breaking off happens with rifle loads and usually the ones going over 3,000 fps. Handgun loads don't have enough velocity to break off a petal, however they will fold back further against the shaft "if" driven too fast for that particular bullet. Ex. the 115 gr 9mm solid copper HP bullet driven to 357 Sig, 38 Super velocities. Instead of the bullet being peeled out so that the petals create a larger diameter to creat a larger wound channel, the high velocity will cause them to fold back against the shaft, resulting in less than "optimim" performance.

 

Petals breaking off happens with rifle loads and usually the ones going over 3,000 fps. Handgun loads don't have enough velocity to break off a petal, however they will fold back further against the shaft "if" driven too fast for that particular bullet. Ex. the 115 gr 9mm solid copper HP bullet driven to 357 Sig, 38 Super velocities. Instead of the bullet being peeled out so that the petals create a larger diameter to creat a larger wound channel, the high velocity will cause them to fold back against the shaft, resulting in less than "optimim" performance.

Micahel, if the petals can fold flat against the shank of the bullet @ handgun vel, then they can also break off. It may not happen often but can happen.:dunno:

 

Micahel, if the petals can fold flat against the shank of the bullet @ handgun vel, then they can also break off. It may not happen often but can happen.:dunno:

That's correct, and especially when striking bone/various barriers.




CM

 

I think both have excellent points. Naturally, if a bullet hits say an elk's scapula all bets are off. Even a 20 to 1 lead alloy bullet can break into pieces in this situation. Also, when steel barriers are present all bets are off. However, for say a normal self defense situation I will hold to what M. Shovel says.

 

I have fired lots of our solid copper handgun loads at ballistic gelatin with heavy clothing, thru auto steel and glass and plywood and have never had a petal break off.

 

the pedals from corbon ammo may not break off. but early X bullets used to lose pedals all the time, you would get a shank with no pedals at all

 

I have fired lots of our solid copper handgun loads at ballistic gelatin with heavy clothing, thru auto steel and glass and plywood and have never had a petal break off.

But when using the handgun against a 300# felon and hitting say heavy leather Jacket, and 'bones', or for hunting, your up against more than jello and denim ! Also when faced in the real world with various barriers...







CM

 

CM, I'd wager 99.99% of non-LEO shootings do not involve barriers. As for the 300 lbs. felon...well that would be a problem with any handgun.

A few years back there was a big stink in NYC because a cop had to shoot a woman many times with a 12 ga. using buckshot at room distance. Naturally, the press pointed out that she was African American. You had to dig deeper to find out she was lunging at the cop with a butcher knife and that she weighed something like 400 lbs. and the buckshot was being "stifled" by the layers of fat!! :shocked: Try & duplicate that in a lab!! :whistling: :supergrin:

 

But when using the handgun against a 300# felon and hitting say heavy leather Jacket, and 'bones', or for hunting, your up against more than jello and denim ! Also when faced in the real world with various barriers...







CM

Did you miss the part about steel, plywood, and auto glass?

Regards,
Happyguy

 

Did you miss the part about steel, plywood, and auto glass?

Regards,
Happyguy

NO i didn't miss it, but still stand on what i said... I've neve had good experience with corbon. I'll leave it at that.


Y'all might consider testing some on your own maybe...... :whistling:







CM

 

CM, I'd wager 99.99% of non-LEO shootings do not involve barriers. As for the 300 lbs. felon...well that would be a problem with any handgun.

A few years back there was a big stink in NYC because a cop had to shoot a woman many times with a 12 ga. using buckshot at room distance. Naturally, the press pointed out that she was African American. You had to dig deeper to find out she was lunging at the cop with a butcher knife and that she weighed something like 400 lbs. and the buckshot was being "stifled" by the layers of fat!! :shocked: Try & duplicate that in a lab!! :whistling: :supergrin:

Your percentage may or may not be correct. You do not have to be a cop to get your butt in a mess, and you never know what you may have to shoot through or be up against. I got a family loaded with LEO's so I pick up a thing or two, and life has tossed a few things my way as well amigo. Be prepared for the worst ! If it don't happen fine. If it does, at least you've trained for it and have done all you can to be ready...



CM

 

I have fired lots of our solid copper handgun loads at ballistic gelatin with heavy clothing, thru auto steel and glass and plywood and have never had a petal break off.

You only push your 357 sig to 1,350 fps, but you are correct I have never see a petal break off. Even a 125gr 10mm round at over 1,600 fps did not break off, but they did bend back. Do you have any data on the effectiveness of the copper rounds compared to regular or bonded bullets. Which would be more effective, the 125 gr copper 357 sig at 1,350 fps or the standard bullet at 1,425 fps. Which one should I purchase.

 

You only push your 357 sig to 1,350 fps, but you are correct I have never see a petal break off. Even a 125gr 10mm round at over 1,600 fps did not break off, but they did bend back. Do you have any data on the effectiveness of the copper rounds compared to regular or bonded bullets. Which would be more effective, the 125 gr copper 357 sig at 1,350 fps or the standard bullet at 1,425 fps. Which one should I purchase.

Thank you for bringing that up Jim. I'm investigating if it's worth purchasing a 10mm Glock once I get home from this part of the world.

 

...Which would be more effective, the 125 gr copper 357 sig at 1,350 fps or the standard bullet at 1,425 fps. Which one should I purchase.

Obviously, I am not M. Shovel. However, I'll wade in with an OPINION based on my life observations. Given equal bullet weights USUALLY velocity rules. However, with the all copper HP's the playing field is not level and the dymanics seem to change somewhat. With that said I would think that there is really not a helluva lot difference between the two except that with the Barnes bullet you can cover a lot more "territory" in that they always seem to open up in NORMAL self defense scenarios.

With that said, I would like to see an OBJECTIVE denim/gel test done with say the Buffalo Bore .357 Mag. with the 125 gr. Barnes copper HP to see if the petals do indeed merely lay back at ultra high velocity in a handgun round. It's not that I doubt M. Shovel and his extensive testing, but just for the sake of objectivity. M. Shovel has said on another forum that Corbon does not usually release test results to the general public in the name of objectivity and that is highly applaudable in today's age of "hucksterism."

 

I have something off of the wall I have been wondering. I got a couple of boxes of 125gr HST 357sig that go between 1,430 and 1,450fps. I say this because the last batch I bought never went over 1,360 fps. Here is my issue and I realize this is a "backyard" test but I wonder what it means. When I shoot through 4 layers of heavy denim into three gallon jugs full of water, there alway was a patern. Shooting 1,500fps DT or 1,500fps BB with the correct GD bullet, there is a tremendous energy dump on the first just. It is generally blown inside out with the top ripped off. The second jug usually has some splits on the seams, but nothing spectacular. However, with these new HST's, I get the same explosive effect on the first jug and the second jugs suffers sever damage with giant splits and the top blowing off. The second jug can move signicifantly more that a foot from where it stood between the two jugs. With all other ammo tested the second jug does not move much. All ammo, including the HST, just pass through the 3rd jug. It has been bothering me as to the effect on the 2nd jug with the HST's and is this something good, or something bad. The DT and BB have more energy, but the HST seems distribute the energy over a longer distance. You get the same effect without the denim, but the BB and DT have some effect on the second jugs but still not like the new HST's.

 

Jim, with all due respect I would not take any bullet serious that was tested in water. I know some people have an inordinate desire to shoot something but in the end the results are worse than useless IMO.

 

Petals breaking off happens with rifle loads and usually the ones going over 3,000 fps. Handgun loads don't have enough velocity to break off a petal, however they will fold back further against the shaft "if" driven too fast for that particular bullet. Ex. the 115 gr 9mm solid copper HP bullet driven to 357 Sig, 38 Super velocities. Instead of the bullet being peeled out so that the petals create a larger diameter to creat a larger wound channel, the high velocity will cause them to fold back against the shaft, resulting in less than "optimim" performance.

I think all projectiles have been designed with a sweet spot in mind.

I have taken a bullet designed for 45ACP and driven it at 45Super velocities and the the JHP folds back on itself or falls apart. I have taken a JHP bullet designed for 454 and driven it at 45ACP velocities and the bullet doesn't deform.

 

Jim, with all due respect I would not take any bullet serious that was tested in water. I know some people have an inordinate desire to shoot something but in the end the results are worse than useless IMO.

Water is better than some and worse than other media to shoot.

I don't think there is a perfect media....well unless someone wants to send me animals to test on. Maybe we can do bullet testing in one area and Emergency Room training on the other area.

 

Jim, with all due respect I would not take any bullet serious that was tested in water. I know some people have an inordinate desire to shoot something but in the end the results are worse than useless IMO.

Your point is taken, and that is why I continue to ask the questions as to any actual data on the rounds effectiveness.

As far as my testing being worthless, they used water before there was calibrated ballistic gel. All of my testing is controlled as far as temperature of the water, the type of plastic the jug is made from and an estimate of it's thickness, same weight denim. It allows me to camparatively see how the bullets perform. I do not know why ballistic gel is all that great. I take bullets with known performance in gel and do a comparative analysis of what I see in water. I do not know if you are thinking that the way this is set up is that I try to quickly drink my gallon of ice tea so I have a jug to use.

There are other things to learn such as if a particulat bullet fails to expand in my testing, then it is even less likely to expand in ballistic gel.

 

I have something off of the wall I have been wondering. I got a couple of boxes of 125gr HST 357sig that go between 1,430 and 1,450fps. I say this because the last batch I bought never went over 1,360 fps. Here is my issue and I realize this is a "backyard" test but I wonder what it means. When I shoot through 4 layers of heavy denim into three gallon jugs full of water, there alway was a patern. Shooting 1,500fps DT or 1,500fps BB with the correct GD bullet, there is a tremendous energy dump on the first just. It is generally blown inside out with the top ripped off. The second jug usually has some splits on the seams, but nothing spectacular. However, with these new HST's, I get the same explosive effect on the first jug and the second jugs suffers sever damage with giant splits and the top blowing off. The second jug can move signicifantly more that a foot from where it stood between the two jugs. With all other ammo tested the second jug does not move much. All ammo, including the HST, just pass through the 3rd jug. It has been bothering me as to the effect on the 2nd jug with the HST's and is this something good, or something bad. The DT and BB have more energy, but the HST seems distribute the energy over a longer distance. You get the same effect without the denim, but the BB and DT have some effect on the second jugs but still not like the new HST's.

Jim,

That HST is is 'opening up' far more than the DT/BB, (usually anyway) and when it hits the first and secong jug it is really pushing the water around with some energy the other two aren't doing because they are not opening up as much. By the time the HST gets to jug 3 the show is over. It has slowed way down at this point. Now, If I am wrong, no harm done. BUT in our testing with these rounds, even back in the "furniture bullet penetration thread days,'' this was obvious.

That HST is a rapid expander, and more so that the GD and whatever DT uses, (i do not know what DT uses nor would trust them, the BB i do trust if i were to use factory stuff) and point is just that, again, you are getting a 'very rapid expansion on the HST' on jug one and two and it is not giving you the dramatic show on #3, because vel dropped way of by that time.

The jug movment is more the result from the larger diameter of the HST upon entrance into jug #2 than it is 'just an energy thing'. There is energy involved to be sure but it is a bit more than that. In comparison to the other two rounds, it (HST) is like a boat paddle in jug two 'disbursing water' and 'causing movment' in return, as 'compared to the other 2 rounds pedals' not giving that 'fan blade or paddle effect'. Some sway, fanning of the bullet on entrance into the water on #2 creating disbursment = movment more so than the DT/BB.

Best and most simple illustration I got at the moment amigo.


Is it a good thing or a bad thing you ask ? Well in just plain water and gel it is a good thing and looks nice and is really explosive, but against real heavy clothing and bone and flesh and meat and muscle and so forth, it is to rapid of an expander to get good deep penetration in this kind of senerio.

I like shooting into water and jugs myself, and it does tell us more than some folks think. Denim or not. But we do use bone an other media in front or inbetween those jugs to try and make it more real world as we can.

Especially when we take a steer hind quarter and place the "guts' inside or behind that, and cover it with heavy leather, like a harley jacket, and some flanel shirt material. Nothing so far has come out looking like jello and water test. haha. More like FMJ on most JHP's.

Some have opened up some, but not like the manufacurer's ad's they run... (no the HST has not had the "steer" test yet). But has gone through water and bone etc. It faired pretty well, but is not coming near the 14" minimum that really should be a measuring rod for good bullet penetration, knowing our SD bullets do have to go through perhaps thick clothes and bone and muscle etc etc... This is hard on any bullet, but especially a rapid expander, which will obviously loose valuable velocity to make it to the vitals in most cases.


People are quick to jump on bad wagons that roll through town when someone presents some new miracle bullet that looks like a star fish in ''gel" or water 'alone', and 'expands at a sneeze almost'. ( not remotely suggesting this is YOU, just a blanket generic statment amigo). But they fail to realize this truly is NOT what they will be up against in real lfe with a 250/300 pound perp.

I like the water jugs and wet pack and all the other fun stuff as much as you or the other guy, as we did a ton of that on the former thread I mentioned above. But there are more realistic test that will pop the bubble on the big pretty boolits we like, when we put 'most" of them up against meat and bone and organs and other media. ( you know all this man, I am just saying it for those that may not).

This is MO, 'and my experience' with what I've done. Humbly written.
But this is what I do believe is your #2 jug movement.... :wavey:




Stay safe







CM