.......

 

the FFL is correct, if you buy a gun for someone other than yourself it is a straw purchase.

you can buy the firearm and gift it to her with a proper bill of sale after that fact. i know its stupid but rules are rules.

i may be wrong here but i "think" you can buy one for a child or wife in immediate family and it won't be but otherwise it is.

No, they are not correct and I literally posted a snippet of the definitions on the 4473 from the ATF to prove it. It says the person is also the
actual buyer if purchasing as a bona fide gift for a thrird party. Makes no mention of immediate family member. It doesn't get any more clear than that. There is no bill of sale required to gift or transfer ownership of a firearm. Not a federal law anyway. Some states require it but not mine.

That may be their store policy to be cautious but it's not the law.

 

Where do you live? It *was*legal here in Va, but is NOT as of 2020. There are many state county and town laws in addition to federal laws. It sucks living In the non-free states.

 

Arizona. It's perfectly legal here.

 

OP, you said too much to the sales people

 

This.

 

There is absolutely nothing prohibited about (me) paying for a firearm and having it ready and available, paid for, blah and the intended owner (recipient of gift) coming into the gun store and filling out the paperwork. The recipient didn’t pay for it but they followed the law to receive the firearm from the FFL

 

There's also nothing federally prohibited about buying a firearm as a gift for a third party and taking the firearm home yourself. The atf says you are the actual transferee and buyer if buying as a gift. You can legally answer "yes" to the "are you the actual buyer?" question in that scenario.

 

Under federal law, one may purchase a firearm as a bona fide gift for a non-prohibited person who is over the age of 18. State law may vary. The issue of a straw purchase has nothing to do with whether one party is prohibited from possessing firearms. See Abramski.

 

I'm thinking gift certificate and take her to the store to buy her own weapon.

 

And that's fine if a shop requires that per their policy but they were 100% wrong when telling me what I was doing was illegal. The ATF is clear on firearm gifting and it's legal under federal law. States may differ.

 

MP15 Sport II or Ruger MPR.

 

I'm looking for a budget ar15 for my girlfriend for Christmas. She really likes my FN15 and wants her own rifle. I went to a local gun shop and told them the same. The sales people immediately became rude and condescending and said "you need to stop right there..you can't buy a gun for someone else. It's called a straw purchase and what you just told us is illegal." I told them it's not because it's a gift. It's only a straw purchase when buying for a prohibited person or someone who gave you money to buy it. They insisted they were right and were unwilling to even let me look at guns so i left.

People who work in gun shops rarely know what they are talking about. It would be a great day if I ever found a gun shop where the employees knew guns as well as the average music store employee knows musical instruments or even as well as the average auto parts store employee knows cars (although the auto parts stores on on a downward trend).

On the other hand, why would you tell the gun shop employees anything? They don't make special ARs for girls - buy a gun and leave.

 

On the other hand, why would you tell the gun shop employees anything? They don't make special ARs for girls - buy a gun and leave.

Just simply making small talk and being friendly. Guess that was my mistake.

 

I wonder if the BATF is gonna go back and bust all of us who have posted about getting a .22 or .410 for Christmas when we were kids??

Think we'd lose 50% of the crew if they did.

 

My Wife is in deep trouble. I promised I would keep money in her Commissary account.

 

I agree with OP and I have gifted several firearms to family members and my husband and daddy have given firearms to me. There's no requirement or need to tell the FFL so to avoid confusion just don't mention it next time. In my state I don't have to do any paperwork to gift a firearm. State laws may vary on that.

A genuine gift has nothing to do with a straw purchase.

 

Found these references.

From the ATF June, 2021 newsletter ( straw purchase - Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Search Results ) (this is in pdf form):

Gift is ok as long as long as 'bona fide' and not giving to someone you know would be ineligble to buy on their own.

".....
• Buying a firearm on behalf of an individual
(prohibited or not)? YES. The buyer must
answer “No” to question 21.a.
• Buying a firearm on behalf of an individual to
save them money (to get a discount)? YES.
The buyer must answer “No” to question 21.a.
• Buying a firearm as a gift? NO. As long as
the purchaser is the actual buyer, and the gift
is bona fide.
• Using spouses’ credit card account to purchase
a firearm? NO. As long as the purchaser is an
authorized user on the credit card.
..... "

HOWEVER, it is NOT ok to take money from someone and buy with intent to just give it to them, EVEN THOUGH both you and other person would not be prohibited from buying.

"...
Whether the actual buyer is prohibited or not is
irrelevant as explained in Abramski v. United
States, 573 U.S. 169 (2014). Thinking he could
acquire a firearm at a discount by showing his
former police identification, Abramski offered to
buy a Glock 19 handgun for his uncle–an offer his
uncle accepted. Abramski received a check from his
uncle for $400 with “Glock 19 handgun” written on
the memo line. Abramski purchased the firearm
from an FFL two days later. The Supreme Court
ruled that Abramski violated the GCA, section
922(a)(6), when he certified on Form 4473 that he
was the “actual transferee/buyer” of the firearm
listed on the form. At the time of the straw
purchase, neither Abramski nor his uncle were
prohibited from possessing firearms.
..."

It is always illegal to give a gun in any case to anyone prohibited from getting them by themselves.

"...
Regardless of a customer’s written responses, the
licensees may not transfer a firearm to any person
he/she knows or has reasonable cause to believe is
prohibited under 18 U.S.C. 922 (g), (h), , or (x).
See also 18 U.S.C. 922(d), (x)...."

Multiple Federal Indictments for Straw Purchases of Guns Allegedly Used in Violent Crimes in Chicago | ATF

INDIANAPOLIS – On July 22, 2021, the U.S. Department of Justice launched five cross-jurisdictional strike forces to help reduce gun violence by disrupting illegal firearms trafficking in key regions across the country. The purpose is to ensure sustained and focused coordination across...

www.atf.gov

 

I buy it for myself, then after about a week I 'suddenly decide' to gift it to someone...(of course, they are a non-prohibited possessor)

BUT....just to make it all legal-like, I also give them a receipt/Bill of Sale for it, showing they bought it from me for $1

Just so there's no doubt about it, further on down the road, should any questions arise.

 

What does the BOS accomplish? It is no less legal to gift a gun to someone 2 seconds or 20 years after you buy it - a BOS does nothing to make any transaction "more" legal.

The idea you overcome liability for what someone does with a gun changes because you didn't gift it to them you sold it to them for $1 is crazy. Plus that isn't even taking into account the liability you do have is very very small. Unless of course you knew the person could not legally own a gun - and even then selling them one with a bill of sale would not reduce your liability in that case either.

 

Just get them a gift card. While "bonafide gift" part makes it okay I don't think it's worth the potential of dealing with the ATF over something arbitrary.

 

What could go wrong????

Girlfriend, not legal spouse. Day after she receives the gun, she dumps you and throws you out of the house, and gets a new gun loving boyfriend - gun was papered ATF under your name. A year from now, their house gets broken into and guess what - gun was stolen.......hmmmm

You are buying her a cheap AR15 compared to your FN15. hmmmm

Why are you picking it out for her? hmmm

Take her to the gun store and have her buy it, do the paperwork, and you pay her back. Or, buy her a gift certificate. Guns are not good gifts.

 

I'm sorry your girl left you for someone else. Don't worry, there are some good ones out there. Just keep looking.

 

Nobody every learns....

 

Well, buy somewhere else. Just buy it and don't mention anything about a gift, even though it is perfectly legal. You just ran into a dumbass that don't know enough to know he does not know, and not smart enough to read and understand the laws. That's about half of the people I see working in gun stores, and about 75% of the average citizen on the street. I'd not shop at that particular store again for anything.

 

I'm looking for a budget ar15 for my girlfriend for Christmas. She really likes my FN15 and wants her own rifle. I went to a local gun shop and told them the same. The sales people immediately became rude and condescending and said "you need to stop right there..you can't buy a gun for someone else. It's called a straw purchase and what you just told us is illegal." I told them it's not because it's a gift. It's only a straw purchase when buying for a prohibited person or someone who gave you money to buy it. They insisted they were right and were unwilling to even let me look at guns so i left.

These are the instructions on the 4473 form directly from the ATF website. It clearly says you can buy a firearm as a gift for a third party. If that's their store policy, then that's fine if they would simply explain that, but it pissed me off how rude they were about it and clearly had no understanding of the law. Maybe they should read a 4473 next time they sell a gun. **** 'em. I'll spend my money elsewhere.

View attachment 1014054

Give cash or a gift certificate.

 

OP,
Since she really likes your FN15,
find a store that has one in stock, give her the money to buy it herself, she fills out the paperwork, no problem or question
about legality that way.🤗🎄

 

You can pay for it, but have her fill out and complete form 4473. That way, it is legally hers.

 

Then she will not be the 'actual tranferee/buyer'...(buyer=the one who paid for it) and she would have to falsely answer that question on the 4473.

 

Don't do the gift certificate that is just lame and you obviously want to surprise her on Christmas day with the actual rifle. You are correct that by the law you have the right to do so, so exercise your right by law and go to a different store and do as you did at the previous store and buy the rifle (no need to mention your girlfriend to avoid possible stupidity again).

The big deal that some members here are missing is the guy at the gun store basically called you a criminal and that would piss me off too. OP it's like you said you and I could more easily accept it if they would have said it is "store policy" but instead they stupidly told you off without knowing what the heck they are talking about.

If it is store policy then fine they have evey right to sell or not sell a firearm to whoever they choose but the ignorance of the law and then calling you out is the frustrating part.

Get your girl the rifle and give it to her on Christmas day, don't let the dummy's from that store get you down.

 

This was my issue. That they labeled me a criminal and treated me as such due to their ignorance of the law. If they had politely explained it's store policy to not sell guns which will be gifted, then I'd understand.

 

A. All gun laws are illegal
B. @Kevinr20 you are correct in your interpretation
C. It’s nobody’s damn business who he gifts a gun to or buys a gun for.

 

just marry her!!! Purchase FN,,,,,Then no transfer needed.

 

Whooaaa!!! Slow down there man... let's not over react!

 

Really doesn't matter who is right or wrong, you do not have the firearm for a gift. Doesn't do anything to come on a gun forum and whine about it. check that gun shop off your list to visit.

I personally would not want to purchase/register a firearm in my name and give it to a non family member. Good chances your relationship will not last and there goes a registered firearm out into the world for potential criminal misbehavior by her, next boyfriend or theft. When the police track the owner of the firearm down, your name will appear and the questions begin.

If you must, just go to another gun store and purchase the firearm and then give it to her.;See how that works for you.

 

Lol there is no firearm registration here. You watch too much TV. I've sold many guns in the past to strangers on the internet. Do you really think the cops are going to show up on my door one day if one of those guns is used in a crime? By your logic, you can never sell a gun in your entire lifetime because it may be used in a crime later.

And it does matter who's right and wrong. Some people, including in this thread, think it's illegal to buy a gun as a gift. People should know the law and not spread misinformation any further.

 

I bought my wife a Shield EZ for Christmas. Told the clerk it was Christmas gift.

What kind of store was this?

Regards,

 

good read.

Giving a Firearm as a Gift? Some Reminders from NSSF

What better way to share our enjoyment of hunting and the shooting sports than to make a gift of a firearm to a family member, close friend or relative?

www.nssf.org