Nothing new there.

 

True. 9x19, .40 S&W, even .45 ACP...apart from their diameters/ bullet weights, they are all pretty close in performance. However, the autopistol magnums; the .357 Sig and 10mm are different. Velocity magnifies everything and bonded bullet technology has finally allowed projectiles to expand without disintegrating. Think about a bullet not only traveling faster, but spinning faster...terminal ballistics become substantially more effective. Wound cavities are larger and deeper, bones break, and greater energy is imparted. If a shooter can deal with the recoil, .357 Sig and 10mm create a significant advantage. That is the comparison that I would like to see.

 

Shot placement? Who knew? All this time I thought carrying a whistle, peeing myself and being a cooperative victim was my best defense...Of course there are times one might have to use car keys or a rolled up magazine.

I get what the article reads but around here it's :deadhorse:

 

Yes what would we ever do if there weren't people on this forum to remind us that we need to hit what we shoot at?

 

Interesting (predictive) read during lunch Thanks!

All my firearms are 9MM...except one (G20)

 

http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/wound_ballistics/load_comparison/load_comparison.aspx
9mm 147 HST: heavy clothing: 12.5'' / .69 : IWBA heavy clothing: 12'' / .66
40 S&W 180 HST: heavy clothing: 12.5'' / .80 : IWBA heavy clothing : 13.5'' / .70
45 acp 230 HST: heavy clothing: 13.5'' / .87 : IWBA heavy clothing : 13'' / .80

Looking at Federal data ^ improvement in ammo is not exclusive to 9mm.
40 and 45 started bigger and expanded bigger in comparable premium bullets.
The advantages of 9mm are capacity and less recoil, not sheer terminal performance.

My solution (compromise) is the Glock 21 SF, which offers capacity and bigger diameter bullets.

 

Based on studies of their training ammo budget, more likely.

 

And, of course, some of the greatest thinkers in physics as well as terminal ballistics were policemen.

 

I'll keep this short....

In the late 1970's the NIJ did a study of common police caliber handgun wound ballistics.

They spent a "boat load" of money.

Computer analysis was done of all data collected.

Scientist poured over the data to make sure it was accurately recorded.

As a result of this study the Relative Incapacitation Index (R.I.I.) was formulated.

This study conclusively proved to a scientific certainty that a light and fast 9mm was BY FAR the most effective police handgun caliber.

In fact, it was scientifically shown to be nearly TWICE as effective as .45 A.C.P. ammunition.

The science was impeccable...

Then one day in Miami, the Bureau ran into two gentlemen named Platt and Maddox...

Unfortunately neither of these persons had read the study.

It was after the deaths of these agents that....The study was found to be "flawed".

Consider scientific study like this....

There was once an M.I.T. study that proved, without a shadow of a doubt... that Bumble Bees were aerodynamically incapable of flight.

Reams of data and analysis proving something which anyone with common sense knew to be incorrect.

Yet... there it was for all to see... When a Bumble Bee skims past your ear.... it is only anecdotal reporting and has no value.

Because careful scientific data shows, it could not have happened.

I once proved without a doubt that ....Seatbelts caused accidents.

But that is a story for another day.

So much for keeping this short....:couch:

 

No scientist worthy of that name would claim that any model accurately simulates some real event, without adequate theoretical consideration. Unfortunately, many just call themselves "scientists," without having a clue what that means.

 

It's easier to shoot 9mm than any other service caliber. With a good JHP, the bullet will get to be a 45cal or better. There are more rounds in the mag to make up for poor shooting. It's cheaper. There are your reason for the FBI going back to 9mm. Which btw is no big deal. Shoot what you shoot best. If you can't hit with a 10mm, then shoot a 9mm.

 

I hope I don't offend some but the shooter performance is based on the lowest common denominator.

Not all LE are gun guys. Not to mention all shootings are under stress and everyone handles that differently.

Also everyone has a different grip strength, wrist strength, hand size, finger length, Palm size etc.


My stance is and always will be carry the largest caliber you can accurately and proficiently shoot with both hands. One hand. And on the move.

 

I hope I don't offend some but the shooter performance is based on the lowest common denominator.

Not all LE are gun guys. Not to mention all shootings are under stress and everyone handles that differently.

Also everyone has a different grip strength, wrist strength, hand size, finger length, Palm size etc.


My stance is and always will be carry the largest caliber you can accurately and proficiently shoot with both hands. One hand. And on the move.

I'm an old guy, and been shooting for about 60 years, and you're absolutely right.

 

my buddy is a deputy sheriff and sent me this. he carries a 21 but is a die hard 9mm fanboy, nothing else is worth shooting, it is the best, end all be all round, would like to see all others exterminated.
tells me I am a wimp and an idiot for carrying and shooting 10MM/.357sig almost exclusively. I tend to just ignore him about anything gun related now.

 

I wonder if 9mm fans will ever run out of thread titles slightly tweaked from the last one started ( and about 793 slightly tweaked prior to that ) that are started to hopefully get replies that will once again give them reason and confirmation that their 9mm is " good enough " , " just as good as " X "."...etc.

If you think it's enough that's all that matters. I have grave doubts that anyone is going to sway that opinion against it anyway.

 

my buddy is a deputy sheriff and sent me this. he carries a 21 but is a die hard 9mm fanboy, nothing else is worth shooting, it is the best, end all be all round, would like to see all others exterminated.
tells me I am a wimp and an idiot for carrying and shooting 10MM/.357sig almost exclusively. I tend to just ignore him about anything gun related now.

So you are the wimp & he is the 9mm fanboy?:crazy:

 

yes, his logic escapes me as well.

 

HA, no. furthest thing from it. just one of them "tacticool" operators. 9MM for days.

 

HA, no. furthest thing from it. just one of them "tacticool" operators. 9MM for days.

He needs to work on his logic skills or at least come up with better insults that make sense; like you are a knuckle dragging cave man for shooting a 10mm.

 

hahaha. I will let him know.

 

Yes, but IMO, not at normal handgun vel. You really need to be up to 1400fps + to get significant increase in tissue damage. So not a big diff in say 1200fps & 1300fps, just not moving the needle much. Sure, 1000fps & 1400fps, you'll see a lot more tissue displaced. Why the 357mag was such a step up in the day, going from 38sp @ 900fps to 1400fps, a big jump with an expanding bullet. If you can shoot full power rds like 357sig,10mm & 45+P equal to say 9mm+p, then you have a very slight edge, but an edge non the less. Whether that out weighs mag cap would be the deciding factor in your caliber choice.

+1

 

Yes, but IMO, not at normal handgun vel. You really need to be up to 1400fps + to get significant increase in tissue damage. So not a big diff in say 1200fps & 1300fps, just not moving the needle much. Sure, 1000fps & 1400fps, you'll see a lot more tissue displaced. Why the 357mag was such a step up in the day, going from 38sp @ 900fps to 1400fps, a big jump with an expanding bullet. If you can shoot full power rds like 357sig,10mm & 45+P equal to say 9mm+p, then you have a very slight edge, but an edge non the less. Whether that out weighs mag cap would be the deciding factor in your caliber choice.

Agreed, Fred...most factory loadings for the .357 Sig with a 4" barrel only produce velocities around 1335 fps. However, that will produce muzzle energy that ranges from 500-550 ft/lbs; a substantial jump compared to service calibers. Additionally, many offerings from Underwood will produce velocities in the 1400-1500 fps range...and this all from a compact format. 10mm is offered in guns that are a bit large for my tastes, but most of the above comments apply with it as well. I like both of these cartridges because they take full advantage of modern bullet technology, and still offer modern pistol features like high-capacity magazines and strong, concealable formats. The difference between tactical success and abject failure is often razor-thin. I seek every advantage I can get...

 

I agree about having ever advantage, but 100-150ft# of energy is a very small advantage. If I have to give up accuracy at speed for 150ft#, I'll take the accuracy all day every day. Why my 45acp is not +p & Why so many LEA are looking to return to 9mm. If I want raw power at the edge of speed/accuracy, I'll go 44mag.

 

Im just happy with my .40

 

I own two self-defense calibers, 9mm and .357sig. Like you, I'll take gun/ammo accuracy and reliability over every other consideration. But I will take every advantage, and I can say I shoot .357sig every bit as well as 9mm in the pistols I own.

No one will ever know how much of an advantage will be enough so you want accuracy AND power on your side. The big difference between the two is that no one can predict how much accuracy they will achieve in a SD situation with the BG shooting back VS a range target. On the other hand if I put Corbon JHP or Underwood ammo in my 357 Sig I have guaranteed power with each and every trigger pull.

 

I agree about having ever advantage, but 100-150ft# of energy is a very small advantage. If I have to give up accuracy at speed for 150ft#, I'll take the accuracy all day every day. Why my 45acp is not +p & Why so many LEA are looking to return to 9mm. If I want raw power at the edge of speed/accuracy, I'll go 44mag.

.44 Magnum? So much for your capacity argument...

If you want real accuracy, go all in and pack a .22...they're really forgiving. Hardly any recoil at all.

 

Ive never offered a capacity argument, i live in 10+1 kommifornia. So i choose a 45 most of the time in a full or mid size gun. If i had to give up accuracy at speed for raw power, like for big bears, i'ld reach for a 4" 44mag. First shot/hit speed is the same regardless of caliber. So 6rds with a reload is probably enough.

 

What is the old saying, "accuracy, speed, power".

 

How does velocity "magnifies everything"?

Think rifle cartridge, 150 grain 30-06, for example, and compare that to a .40 s&w 180 grain

 

Comparing 30-06 to a service caliber as evidence that "velocity magnifies everything" is not particularly relevant; by the same "logic" I could tell you to think of a 500 lb. rock falling on you at just 1 fps and compare that to 30-06. If you compare 125 grain 9mm JHP @ 1350 fps and a 180 grain JHP (similar type) @ 1000 fps, the heavier, but slower bullet will cause greater wounding. Velocity "magnifies" little at handgun energies, much less than bullet weight.

 

Makes sense....44 Mag is a good choice in the field.

 

Makes sense....44 Mag is a good choice in the field.

Shoot it a lot, handload for it, it's actually the most versatile handgun rd going. If we ever got to a point of a single handgun, it would be a 4" m29 for me. It will do every thing you can ask of a handgun.

 

True but there aren't that many occasions when .44 mag power is needed, a more practical and lighter choice would be a 357 Magnum with 6 inch barrel. Shoots everything between the little .38 short and heavy magnum loads.

 

If I was a bean counter and I was deciding which caliber other people were going to carry I would chose the 9mm. The cost savings between the 9mm and 40sw for one gun is a fair amount. Then multiply that by the number of guns in a department and it will add up to a fair bit of change.

 

That logic would be reasonable if saving money was the only consideration.

 

Bullet weight actually has little to do with crushing more tissue. As long as there is enough mass to give penetration & provide enough mat'l for good expansion, the weight has little to do with it. If either bullet hits say 70cal the perm tissue damage will be nearly identical. It will come down to the bullet design more than the weight,

You are missing the context. For a given bullet frontal area, bullet weight (mass) and velocity determine penetration and the volume of tissue that's disrupted. The amount of tissue disrupted, for a given bullet frontal area, is nearly directly proportional to bullet weight and is approximately proportional to the square root of velocity (actually about 0.6 exponent of velocity).

 

No i'm not. A bullet that reaches 70cal, same frontal area. As long as thete is enough mass & the bullet holds together, results will be very sim. If it were just about bullet weight, the old 200gr LRN would still be with us.