Less rounds in a revolver and slower to reload

9mm has around +40% energy at the muzzle

 

Less rounds in a revolver and slower to reload

9mm has around +40% energy at the muzzle

Doesn't that sort of depend on the Indian?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLk1v5bSFPw

 

I believe the 38 158g LRN were called widowmakers, not because they were lethal. They lacked the performance necessary to keep the officer in the fight.

 

According to the Gel tests ,
On Lucky Gunner the 147 & 150gr HST both perform verywell .. Deep penetration and excellent expansion ..
I really like the 38spl and useally carry a 38spl as a BUG
But I think the 147gr & 150gr HST loads outperform the 38spl

 

According to the Gel tests ,
On Lucky Gunner the 147 & 150gr HST both perform verywell .. Deep penetration and excellent expansion

I do find it a bit ironic that during this push back to 9mm most people are choosing the subsonic 147+ grain offerings. Not too much difference between a 147gr JHP at 990fps and a 180gr JHP at 990fps. 9mm 147gr SD= .167; .40 180gr SD= .161. Seems like splitting hairs for the most part to me.

In my opinion, switching back to 9mm only makes sense if you use a range load that mimics your duty load, which isn't common. If you actually choose a range load that mimics your duty load you're going to end up paying about the same per round as .40, so really, where is the advantage? Recoil? Not much. Ammo manufacturers could water the .40 loads down to 940 fps +/- 20fps and still get good terminal performance. Just seems like a lot of hair splitting and weapon replacement for really no change to anything other than 2 extra rounds in the magazine.

I like 9mm. I have no issues with it. I also have no issues with .40 or .45. They're all essentially the same. Perhaps we should really be looking for a 115gr JHP @ 1140fps that mimics a range load, makes 15 inches in jello and expands to .60. Hmm...seems like Speer has a load that is close to doing that but no one ever talks about it...

 

Despite all the love for the round, and all the 1940's wisdom, the 38 SP is an anemic round. It was one of the best of its time, but that time has passed.
I'm not a 9MM fanboy, but the 9mm is a much better round. 9MM is just adequate on the effective scale, so judge from there.

 

Basically when you get down into the 147gr short barrel 9mm and 38 Special range you really are dependent on shot placement to make the difference since both are low power, low velocity loads and both the G43 and 38 Special are limited in capacity.

Both are best suited as BUGs.

 

This goes for any caliber and any weight. Hitting someone in the shoulder with a 45 is going to leave you just as alive as being hit with a 9mm.

 

Birds of a feather, period. No one wants to admit it of course, harping about new bullets etc. Just more of the same. I wouldn't carry any 147 if forced into a 9mm.

 

A 147 Ranger T or a 147 HST +p or not plus p. Will perform in short or long barrel as good as any 40 round.Law enforcement has started to go back to 9mm for that reason.Plus they have more rounds available per Mag. No brainier to me.I use the 147 HST +p in a shield.It feels like a robust round firing it for sure.And will run 985 fps to 1000 fps in the short barrel 3.1 inch

 

I like the 124 +P in my 43.

 

I mostly use 147gr non +p.

 

I will say better because of bullet tech. The ranger & hst 147gr are very good, 65cal & penetrate deep. Not sure of any 38sp +p that will do that. As good as the old 158gr lswchp +p is, the ranger/hst 147gr is better.

 

Definitely better

147gr Federal HST is arguably the best 9mm JHP available, no question it's better than .38spl

In a 3" barrel

 

Most people don't buy cases of ammo. They buy a few boxes at a time. You'll always be able to search and find it cheap, but from a general stand point you're not going to be saving much money. And yes, I order from targetsports too. They are running some good prices on the Lawman stuff right now. Generally, most people buy their stuff at local stores (Walmart) and they're buying Federal Champion, WWB, etc..

 

Most people don't buy cases of ammo. They buy a few boxes at a time. You'll always be able to search and find it cheap, but from a general stand point you're not going to be saving much money. And yes, I order from targetsports too.

Most people shoot their guns once or twice a year. We aren't most people.

There's no need to "search". Go to target sports usa and go to sgammo, which are probably the top two you will see recommended in every 'where do you order ammo' thread out there.

Most people also don't give a **** about whether their range ammo perfectly duplicates the ballistics of their carry load, any general range ammo is going to be perfectly fine. Even the heavy hitters who take this far more serious than you or I who might order 20k rounds at a time don't worry about that. Just buy what works in your gun and is inexpensive and you'll be perfectly fine.

Or buy a case at a time ordering online if you are so anal as to require identical ballistics from your carry and defense loads. In which case you'll spend $185-$200 shipped per 1k for 9mm Speer Lawman (or similar round)

Again, given the prices you quoted, where the hell are you buying ammo?

You could order 100 rounds of range ammo and pay less ordering online than the prices you gave! lol


If you're stuck buying 100 rounds at a time in person go to Walmart and buy Federal Champion 9mm FMJ at $18.97/100

 

I will admit, there is something to be said for just being able to fire your pistol cheap, which 9mm does allow you to do, so I will give it some benefits. Like I said, I have no issue with it. I just wish someone would develop a premium 115gr JHP @ 1150fps to mimic most range loads.

 

I just wish someone would develop a premium 115gr JHP @ 1150fps to mimic most range loads.

Why are you so concerned with identical range and carry ballistics? You'd drive the 10mm and .357 Sig guys absolutely crazy with that requirement lol, I can only imagine. But anyway...

Have you heard of Federal 9BPLE?

Or how about just carry a standard pressure 124gr or 147gr that will shoot identically to the bulk range ammo or, at least, imperceptibly different?

You seem to be quite concerned with something that just doesn't matter AND something that can be done very easily (identical ballistics from inexpensive range FMJ and carry ammo)

I mostly shoot Speer Lawman as well as stuff like MEN, Yavex, Prvi Partizan NATO, S&B, RWS, etc, which can be had for $185-$205 per 1k rounds, and some of that feels hotter than some of the best carry ammo

 

Well, if I could convert all my snubbies to 9mm (+P capable), I suppose I would, but they are just little old 38s, and I like them, so that is that. I trust them and trust the rounds that I have selected for them are amongst the best available (CorBons, except the little Taurus View). I also have two 357 snubs, an LCR and an M&P 340, and they don't have to apologize for a lack of power at all. They do hurt on both ends, but I have shot both with 110s and 125s, and so I know what to expect.
I do really mean the part about admiring 9mm revolvers, but I don't trust moon clips in the least, having seen too many bent ones causing problems.

 

I don't think I'd point to the literal world record, pretty far from a representative example.

BTW, 12 shots in under 3 seconds, I can do that. With a semi auto. hehe

 

Since shot placement is all that matters and caliber means nothing just carry a .380, it shoots modern ammo also.

 

Nope, shot placement is waaay over rated. Whack em with enough energy, doesn't matter where the bullet lands??:crazy:

 

Well, a .50 to the leg will do more damage than a 9mm to the chest.

9mm, 40, 45, 38, 380... whatever. It’s a handgun round. The debate over handgun calibers is like two 13 year olds comparing their mustaches

 

Well, a .50 to the leg will do more damage than a 9mm to the chest.

Are you sure about that?

If I needed to stop an attacker right now, I'd take my 9mm JHP to the chest over a .50 AE to the leg. Not that anybody here is carrying a .50 AE and not that anybody here has ever said the terminal ballistics of a .50 AE and a service cartridge are substantially similar.

A .50 BMG to the leg vs a service cartridge to the chest...okay I'll go with the .50 BMG to the leg of my attacker, assuming that one round is all that's in play for some reason, and by leg I mean a square hit to the thigh

9mm, 40, 45, 38, 380... whatever. It’s a handgun round. The debate over handgun calibers is like two 13 year olds comparing their mustaches

Yeah pretty much

 

I’m fairly certain a 50BMG (what I meant to reference) would take off my leg, or leave it hanging by a thread. If I was in the business of robbing people, I would probably opt for a sick day after that.

But I’m happy with my 9mm and .38’s. I have a couple 45’s left, but don’t do much with them anymore.

 

Two different rounds that both have their place, a revolver round often used as an effective and reliable BUG, and a semi-auto round for EDC. The 38 sp has much more case capacity and potential. The Buffalo Bore and Underwood 158gr gets 1000 fps with a 2" snubbie.

 

A lot of people still use the J Frame for EDC but both are limited by size and capacity making them good BUGs. My preference of the two would be a J Frame in 357 Magnum.

 

I will admit, there is something to be said for just being able to fire your pistol cheap, which 9mm does allow you to do, so I will give it some benefits. Like I said, I have no issue with it. I just wish someone would develop a premium 115gr JHP @ 1150fps to mimic most range loads.

I recently found Winchester 124-grain NATO FMJ ammo that claims 1200 fps on the box. It's sometimes difficult to find, and more confusing is that Winchester offers another 124-grain NATO FMJ that the box indicates 1140 fps.

The higher velocity NATO ammo is relatively cheap where I have found it, and it pretty well mimics the premium 124-grain +P JHP carry ammo I use. As well, the NATO round I found is as accurate as me and my pistols are, so I'm happy to have found it.

I generally prefer the 124-grain bullet in 9mm, but don't have any qualms about carrying the Speer standard pressure 115-grain Gold Dot (rated 1210 fps at muzzle). When I find some Speer 124-grain +P Gold Dot (as part of a larger order including other caliber ammo I'm looking for) I'll spring for it.

 

I’m fairly certain a 50BMG (what I meant to reference) would take off my leg, or leave it hanging by a thread. If I was in the business of robbing people, I would probably opt for a sick day after that.

But I’m happy with my 9mm and .38’s. I have a couple 45’s left, but don’t do much with them anymore.

A good solid leg hit with a powerful round would immediately result in the loss of or greatly limit the mobility of the attacker and so his ability to cause further harm. A hit to the chest would at best give the attacker enough time to empty a magazine in your direction or more as bleed out from a COM hit is a much slower process to bring an end to an encounter.

The goal here is SD, the key is a speedy end to the danger before harm can come your way a good leg hit and you can walk away but a chest hit with a 9mm and your still dodging bullets.

 

A 147 Ranger T or a 147 HST +p or not plus p. Will perform in short or long barrel as good as any 40 round.Law enforcement has started to go back to 9mm for that reason.Plus they have more rounds available per Mag. No brainier to me.I use the 147 HST +p in a shield.It feels like a robust round firing it for sure.And will run 985 fps to 1000 fps in the short barrel 3.1 inch

Nope. I will take a 155 grn 40 @ 1200 FPS all day over ANY 9mm load. More rounds per mag? If 16 are not enough I seriously doubt 2 more are going to make any difference before you reload. The first decisive hit usually decides most gun fights, if it takes you 18 shots to get that hit the gun is not the problem.

I believe the 38 158g LRN were called widowmakers, not because they were lethal. They lacked the performance necessary to keep the officer in the fight.

They were called that due to the police widows left after these rounds were used and the BG was able to kill the cop after soaking up six rounds. Prior to the 1960's police mostly used 5"-6" revolvers in the 60's many transitioned to 4" revolvers. Now people expect performance from a 2" BBL with the same power level. I carried a 357 for many years but never a 38, I saw too many people shot with 38's, 380's and the like to put much faith in them.

 

Which just shows more about the bullet than the vel at handgun levels. In the old days of revolvers & solids, bigger rounds ruled, bigger holes. The 38sp os better today than back then. Though I have 38/357 snubs, my g26 is about the same size & easier to get good hits with fast & I have twice the capacity. Not a pocket carry guy, which may be the niche for the 5shot snub, but not as my primary.