🍿

 

Which one do you shoot better?
“If you hunt with a handgun, you’ll always want to hunt with a handgun,” Pluff said. “You’ll get hooked. You’ll be in the tribe.”

Handgun Hunting 101: The Gear, Cartridges, and Tips You Need to Get Started

Why, with long-range hunting all the rage, would anyone commit to using a handgun for hunting big game? The answer is simple: Handgun hunting presents its own challenges, and demands more of the hunter. Rifles and muzzleloaders offer better accuracy at greater distances, but for anyone willing...

www.outdoorlife.com

 

Which one do you shoot better?
“If you hunt with a handgun, you’ll always want to hunt with a handgun,” Pluff said. “You’ll get hooked. You’ll be in the tribe.”

Handgun Hunting 101: The Gear, Cartridges, and Tips You Need to Get Started

Why, with long-range hunting all the rage, would anyone commit to using a handgun for hunting big game? The answer is simple: Handgun hunting presents its own challenges, and demands more of the hunter. Rifles and muzzleloaders offer better accuracy at greater distances, but for anyone willing...

www.outdoorlife.com

Well, since my G30S is roughly 3 oz lighter than my G29 and they both produce virtually the same momentum at the muzzle, my G29 is easier to control using the heaviest HC bullets for both calibers.

But not largely so. Muzzle flip is pronounced in both examples over standard factory loadings, but still controllable w/ proper grip technique. My G30S being a good 3 oz lighter w/ a much thinner slide is the easier gun to carry. I don’t hunt with handguns. I have considered it however.

The G40 MOS is neat, but 45 oz loaded with six inches of slide is a whole lot of gun. Granted, much lighter than a hunting long gun. I’d be more likely to use my 3 inch 686 P and mount a RMR/507 to the rear sight dovetail.

My 3 inch barrel S&W 686P w/ Buffalo Bore 180 grain HC generates 675 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle @ 1,300 fps MV. 7 shots. IL removed/plug installed.

I added Meprolight combat night sights and rosewood grips. Loaded @ 37.6 oz w/ 7 rounds of BB 180 gr HC.

An RMR on a 686 dovetail mount. I think this would be a very slick setup for a relatively compact hunting and defensive revolver within a reasonable carry weight that can be drawn quickly from a chest rig holster.

-Photo by member JCN

 

I start by asking, what woods are you in? If out in the MI woods, even if you saw a bear track last year, chance of a confrontation is highly unlikely. Meeting a druggie at the parking spot is more likely.

Now if remote around the edges of Yellowstone, MT or WY, yes, time to step it up some, AK also. For encounters with larger critters, penetration is important. One could test then carry hardcast Underwood ammo for their regular CC gun, or handload Lehigh Defense ‘extreme penetrators’.

I was just reading an article about safety while traveling, as a tourist out of the USA. The so called expert was consulted. He said simple traffic accidents were the highest cause of fatalities, not high profile, violent crime.

I think back to a year’s worth of stories about those that have died out in the woods, often hiking. It seems exposure, falls, getting lost, or even having your significant other push you off the cliff are more common than animal attacks.

Of course, bring the gun, I will. I just don’t like carrying a boat anchor when that weight could be better allocated to clothing, water, food & navigation supplies. They make an emergency beacon, no subscription required, $240+/-, goes to a satellite. If remote, makes a lot of sense, if not for you, what you may come across.

Again, I have a gun for every eventuality, not against buying the 454 Casull for woods carry. Just remember, if you do see a bear, he likely doesn’t need to be shot.

 

Excellent write up. I agree with your philosophy and your points are similar to my own line of reasoning for a woods gun carry option where weight becomes a premium. To answer your question, black bear. And as others have mentioned, potential criminals would be the much more real concern.

Frankly, even in anticipated Grizzly country, I’m confident that hot 180 grain .357 MAG Hardcast will have absolutely zero issue in entering and exiting a brown bear skull at any angle. The high sectional density combined with the smaller diameter of the .357/180 gr HC bullet actually gets more penetration than .44 MAG loads in the penetration testing I’ve seen. And does so with much faster follow up shots in smaller/lighter framed guns.

One of the most popular Alaska guides prefers the S&W 3 inch Model 60 J-Frame loaded with Buffalo Bore. I’ll have to find that article but it was an interesting read. Personally, I would want more capacity. But the Mod 60 is much lighter than my 686 let alone a .454/ .500 S&W.

 

In the parks, one has to justify putting rounds into a critter. In a place like Yellowstone, I’d carry some spray also, if semi-remote. The threshold for shooting spray off is much lower than shooting a gun, like almost none.

If two plus people are hiking together, there’s usually some chatter. That guy killed in Yellowstone a year or so ago was alone, probably quiet while fishing, likely surprised the bear.

 

I also do the AT trail in VA a couple times a year... It's one of the reason I bought a G20/3 back then. ( after they allowed firearms in the national parks in 2010 )
Picked up a non-expiring National Park enter pass... think I paid $55.

Have run into black bears 5x on AT, only once did it not run away ( spring, so prob a cub nearby ). Ended up just walking backwards away till out of sight and took another side trail. carry in a Supertuck IWB with loose shirt/jacket.

As to what you carry, I'd carry what you shoot best with !

 

I just use my Wilson 10mm. The 10mm has for a large part replaced many 44 magnums in Alaska. For the Appalachian as you mentioned, people are a larger threat than critters. Carry what you shoot best. As one person said about a bear defense gun, "shoot anything in the face enough and it will leave you alone". Extra points if you know who said it.

 

Wilson Goodness! Very nice; align the grip screws and it's perfect.

 

Seems like in actual bear encounters, a well-placed 9mm is enough. That said, were I hunting bear country and didn't have a rifle I'd have a 10mm close at hand.

 

TBH, I would feel adequately armed even in bear country with a 9mm loaded w/ 147 grain +P Buffalo Bore hardcast. It wouldn’t be my first choice, but I have no doubts it would easily exit a bear skull/body from any angle.

An interesting excerpt from an article on the Buffalo Bore 9mm +P hardcast used to stop a brown bear at close range very effectively:

Grizzly Skins

grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol and Handgun Bullets Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol and Handgun Bullets Field Proven pistol and handgun ammo. Maximum firepower bullets. Best ammunition for pistols and handguns for sale. Buffalo Bore. Strictly big bore. Strictly Business.

www.buffalobore.com

ALASKAN GUIDE, PHIL SHOEMAKER, USES 9MM OUTDOORSMAN ROUNDS IN An S&W 3954 TO STOP AN ATTACKING GRIZZLY - See story and photos below.

“Tim,

Two days ago I was guiding a couple from NY on a fishing trip and decided to pack my S&W 3954 pistol. When we were approaching the stream we bumped into a large boar who must have been sleeping as we were talking loud just so we wouldn't surprise one. Over the past 33 years I have lived and guided here on the Alaska peninsula I have never had to kill a bear in defense of life but this bear was different.

We were in thick brush and I was only 8 or 10 feet from the bear when he started growling and huffing. I began yelling and it eventually ran around, behind my two clients, into the brush. But within 15 seconds it came charging back from the area behind us and popped out of the brush 10 feet from me! I had the little S&W in my hands and was thinking I was probably going to have to shoot it but as it cleared the brush it headed toward my clients. The man had enough sense to grab his wife and fall backward into the tall grass. The bear seemed to lose track of them, even though it was less than 3 feet away from them and it was highly agitated! It then swung toward me, I was 6 or 8 feet away, and I fired the first shot into the area between the head and shoulder. It growled and started wildly thrashing around, still basically on the feet of my clients. My next shot hit it in the shoulder and it began twisting and biting at the hits and I continued firing as fast as I could see vitals. Five shots later it turned into the brush and I hit it again and it twisted and fell 20 feet from us!

We hiked out and I flew back to camp to report the incident to F&G and pick up my daughter to go back and skin the bear for F&G.

You are the first person I have told this story to as I haven't decided whether to write it up or not, or where, but thought you should know that your ammo WORKS. We recovered 4 of the bullets and I took a photo of the back of the bear after the hide was removed that shows an entry on one side of the back and the tip of the bullet on the off side ...”

 

I agree, there both very viable cartridges for the task. But I don't get how you come to the conclusion that the 45+p is superior when it "lost" in almost every metric. The momentum metric is the only one it won out on and by a barely measurable amount...yes the 30s shaves a few ounces but that's gun to gun, not a cartridge comparison.

And for me personally, the capacity difference does factor in substantially. For an imagined bear encounter, not a big deal, but for the druggie, hogs, wild dogs sort of scenarios I want more ammo.

 

I didn’t claim the .45 +P is superior to 10mm, more so the G30S platform may be compared to my G29 SF being 4 oz lighter and notably easier to carry while having slightly more momentum at the muzzle and near the same sectional density.

I believe the weight advantage alone is worthy of consideration considering what the 255 grain .45 +P hardcast is capable of within the typical range of a potential bear attack.

 

I think that both would work. I have carried both rounds into the woods.

 

I would actually love to have a Glock 21 converted to .45 Super, but.....

The reasons I picked a Glock 20 in 10mm over a Glock 21 modded to .45 Super are 1) a 10mm is ready to use out of the box, no need to experiment with it; 2) 10mm should be one of the most reliable feeding pistol cartridges there is; 3) sometimes you can walk into a shop and buy a box of ammunition for your 10mm. Good luck walking into a shop and buying .45 Super; and 4) reloading for an autopistol is irritating because a huge percentage of brass is lost unless you're regularly shooting in a location with bare ground and no grass.

As you noted, if you want your .45 Super to be a good killer, you'll load it with Keiths or WFN's or LFN's... the only minor problem there is that those bullets were not designed to feed in an autoloader and that might send you straight back to the experimental stage.

I've always loaded more ammunition for a .45 than any other handgun... except it's .45 Colt. It lets me shoot real revolver bullets with nice big flat noses and they can be cast hard or soft without concern for reliability. And I "recover" virtually 100% of my fired brass too.

 

You're obviously not a hunter. If you were, this would not be a question. NOBODY hunts with a .45 ACP. It doesn't perform well against angry or thick-bodied animals.

It's pretty unclear what your objective is with this thread. Are you trying to say that the 10mm is no better than the .45? You compare loadings for both cartridges that people don't use. Oh, they buy those loads and talk about them on forums- no doubt- but they don't USE them. Go to any of the hunting forums you want- there are MANY. Nobody hunts with a 220 gr 10mm load, or uses the .45 ACP +P load in the woods. If you want a "Bear Gun In the Woods" cartridge, .45 Super would be the appropriate setup for your G30.

Or do you want ANOTHER "What's a Good Bear Defense Gun" thread? Great. Add it to the ridiculous amount of the other exact same threads.

My esteemed colleague @Valmet gave you the best answer so far-

🍿

 

Or do you want ANOTHER "What's a Good Bear Defense Gun" thread? Great. Add it to the ridiculous amount of the other exact same threads.

Mental Flagellation. 🍿😁

 

You have to ask yourself...

Self, is the G30 +P rated? Self, if I'm looking at +P .45, why not +P 10mm? Self, if I think momentum is important, does the 10mm or .45 conserve that momentum better? Self, how does momentum affect a .40" slug vs. a .45" slug?

🍿😁🤔🤣

 

As someone who hunts elk with a bow in NW, WY I would say your biggest necessity is a quality spray and a hunting buddy. The guides I’ve worked with have carried a menagerie of pistols (10MM, 454, .44 and .45) but I would say the Glock 20 in a chest rig is the most popular that I’ve seen. Also interesting to note that run ins with grizzlies in those parts are generally marked as “encounters” and not attacks. Let’s just say they don’t really want the bad press because they’re so dependent on tourism and guiding up there.

With a bow, a chest rig is next to impossible because of your draw, so I’ve only used OWB holsters with my 20. I always have spray but there is something comforting about having a pistol, and Glock’s dependability plus 15 rounds adds an additional layer of comfort for me. Also having a hunting companion really adds another layer of comfort. When I’ve been in grizzly country, it’s not the daytime stuff that scares me, it crawling inside my one man tent and wondering if I smell like dinner. I’ve heard the guides call a gunshot the “dinner bell” for grizzlies because they know a gut pile will be close.

A doctor that Ive done some work with (Mark Wells OD - I’m sure you can google him) was attacked by a grizz many years back and his brother helped save his life and it wasn’t their pistols that helped him, it was the spray. The downside though was his brother sprayed Mark, the bear and himself, it was a terrifying few minutes of not being able to see after the dousing and eventually they made it out on horseback to their truck and then another harrowing drive from there (and I believe a helicopter ride too).

I believe something is better than nothing and even the sound of the gunshot would be helpful I’d think in potentially scaring one off.
Like someone else said, just cause you see one doesn’t mean you’ll have to shoot it or fend for your life, it’s the startling or the sow with cubs that’s the game changer or smelling like whatever it was you cooked for supper.

(great thread and like reading all the responses)

 

This thread brings up a quandary I have. I motorcycle and camp about once a year on the Montana/Wyoming border. So bought a G20. Then came across a distributors special 5” GP100. With 180 gr pretty equal. But the G20 has capacity and the boutique loads for the 10 are good with heavier weights.

 

See there? You already had your answer!

You can do anything that needs doing with a 9mm.



👌

 

See there? You already had your answer!

You can do anything that needs doing with a 9mm.



👌

Honestly, from a handgun strictly used as a last resort against a bear at close range, I wouldn’t feel inadequately armed using 9mm hardcast.

I would prefer a 200 grain .40 S&W HC and up just due to the larger meplat. Perhaps a little more insurance that the bullet ogive won’t glance off a bone.

 

Just convert you G30 to 460 Rowland.

 

Maybe in my 1911. I don’t think my G30S would appreciate that very much!

 

I hunt a lot, just tagged my 39th Elk, all over the Rocky Mountains. I'm more worried about bumping into a drug camp, a poacher or a badger than Mr. Bear. Wolves are going to be a bigger threat than bears soon too.

 

This is our world today.
In 2009 I did an elk hunt outside of Park City, Utah. While breaking trail through snow up to our knees in some places, we came across wolf tracks. The ranger to whom we reported this just shrugged his shoulders and said he was not surprised.
I resent that I have to have eyes in the back of my head when I'm hunting. Of course we are watching our surroundings when we hunt, but now we are on guard for a different predator than before.

 

I opened this thread eagerly hoping to see a breakthrough in the best bear stopping caliber debate.

Alas, I am disappointed.

The calculable stuff has been calculated and the unknowns are still unknown. Dang.

 

I opened this thread eagerly hoping to see a breakthrough in the best bear stopping caliber debate.

Alas, I am disappointed.

The calculable stuff has been calculated and the unknowns are still unknown. Dang.

Best monster stopper in the world of repeating handguns is probably a custom Ruger Bisley fivegun in .475 Linebaugh.

 

Seasons Greetings All,

Interesting discourse on the matter. The OP points out several key factors comparing the two calibers. Having used both 45 acp and 10 mm in recreational USPSA type shooting running factory loads I have me some experience with each to share. By the way when headed out for goofing about SE AZ either pistol is a good choice.

Ok, with that being said here are a few additional points to consider. Velocity differences between the two calibers. Yes your mileage may vary so I'm speaking in general terms. Most of the 10mm factory loads have greater velocities compared to the factory offerings in 45 acp. This can be important for distant engagements. Shooting bowling pins at 100 meters will show the difference between the calibers easily. The amount of hold over is different between the calibers.

Now there is the issue of pressure between the calibers too. When recreational shooting you are typically wearing eye and ear protection. So the blast is not so much of a factor. Launching high pressure rounds is loud. So there is that too.

You can reference some very informative terminal ballistics measurements over at Lucky Gunner's web site for various factory loads. Here you can see the general trend in penetration characteristics to guide your decision between the calibers. I found the information helpful in confirming my personal findings when comparing the different factory loads.

In conclusion I find both are good choices for different reasons with different capabilities. You have to make the determination based on your threat profile and intended application. I usually have at least one of them handy when out and about goofing off. Enjoy the Holidays to the fullest. Be well, Cheers!

 

Seasons Greetings All,

Interesting discourse on the matter. The OP points out several key factors comparing the two calibers. Having used both 45 acp and 10 mm in recreational USPSA type shooting running factory loads I have me some experience with each to share. By the way when headed out for goofing about SE AZ either pistol is a good choice.

Ok, with that being said here are a few additional points to consider. Velocity differences between the two calibers. Yes your mileage may vary so I'm speaking in general terms. Most of the 10mm factory loads have greater velocities compared to the factory offerings in 45 acp. This can be important for distant engagements. Shooting bowling pins at 100 meters will show the difference between the calibers easily. The amount of hold over is different between the calibers.

Now there is the issue of pressure between the calibers too. When recreational shooting you are typically wearing eye and ear protection. So the blast is not so much of a factor. Launching high pressure rounds is loud. So there is that too.

You can reference some very informative terminal ballistics measurements over at Lucky Gunner's web site for various factory loads. Here you can see the general trend in penetration characteristics to guide your decision between the calibers. I found the information helpful in confirming my personal findings when comparing the different factory loads.

In conclusion I find both are good choices for different reasons with different capabilities. You have to make the determination based on your threat profile and intended application. I usually have at least one of them handy when out and about goofing off. Enjoy the Holidays to the fullest. Be well, Cheers!

If you want to know penetration characteristics and terminal effectiveness of ammunition on four legged critters, you'll forget Mr. Lucky Gunner exists and pay attention to John Linebaugh, Don Heath, Ross Seyfried, Elmer Keith, and Lynn Thompson.

 

There are people who say 10mm and the other replies are wrong. 😁

 

This guy tried to get me in 2017 and 2019...

 

What is that?

 

So I did some number crunching and the results surprised me…

I had originally assumed that 10mm was the superior “woods gun” caliber as per the various internet experts. So I bought a G29 SF with that in mind thinking it would make for a great compact bear defense gun when hiking on the Appalachian trail 1-2 times a year. I had also assumed that for .45 to compete with the 10mm in this role, I would have to go up to the .45 Super cartridge.

I don’t hand load so Buffalo Bore is my go to for hard-cast loadings in all calibers.

Comparing my G30S to G29SF:

1.) Loaded Weight

G29 SF = 32.80 oz

G30S = 30.16 oz

The G29 weighs almost 3 oz more but has 10% more capacity in the gun and 20% more capacity on the reload. A dubious benefit for a woods gun. Am I underestimating this capacity advantage?

2.) Energy (Buffalo Bore Hard Cast)

G29 w/ 220 gr HC = 591 ft/lbs

G30S w/ 255 gr +P HC = 511 ft/lbs

The G29 produces 80 ft/lbs more energy at the muzzle. I think this is largely inconsequential

3.) Muzzle Velocity (BB HC)

G29 w/ 220 gr HC = 1,100 fps

G30S w/ 255 gr HC = 950 fps

The G29 produces 150 fps more velocity at the muzzle.

I don’t think this is much of a real world benefit for a woods self defense handgun. For a hunting handgun having to place a shoot at 100 + yards (ethically?) I could perhaps see some benefit to the 10mm particularly in the G40 MOS.

4.) Sectional Density

.401/220 grains SD .189

.45255 grains SD .180

Factoring in ballistic/terminal performance, the 220gr HC 10mm has a slightly higher SD, 80 more ft lbs of energy and 150 fps more at the muzzle.

5.) Momentum

This is what I found surprising. The 255 gr HC .45 +P has 35 grains more projectile weight and very, very slightly more momentum hardly measurable or worth mentioning. Virtually the same but I expected the 10mm to have quite a bit more.

10mm 220 gr = 73.76 kg*m/s

.45 +P 255 gr = 73.83 kg*m/s

Conclusion

I think the 10mm may be overestimated as a woods self defense handgun cartridge and the .45 ACP +P is certainly underestimated. Between the two Hard-Cast loads, I believe the 255 grain +P has a slight advantage over 200/220 grain 10mm within this role at typical self defense distance.

I'm going to offer my opinion on the matter, so take it for what it's worth. I've carried a Gen 3 G20 SF as a woods gun for a number of years and have run Buffalo Bore, Underwood, and double Tap ammo as well as my own reloads through it an chronographed the results and I have come to the following conclusions:

1.) The Glock 20 and 21 are the optimum size for a woods gun. More barrel length means more velocity and a longer grip means better control and greater ammo capacity. You could go to a G40 but those guns are more weight, slower out of the holster and on target. I have been able to practice with my G20 extensively because I reload and anyone who wants to get good with any defensive handgun needs to do so or otherwise be independently wealthy.

2.) The 45ACP+P loads may be only "A Little Bit" behind in actual ballistics numbers but when you're talking handguns vs. rifles, every "little Bit" counts.

A much better comparison would be between the 10mm UW, BB, and DT loads and 45 SUPER rather than 45 ACP Plus+P.

The standard 45 ACP load is a very low pressure cartridge producing only 21,000 PSI piezo pressure. +P is only slightly more at 23,000. And 45 super is not all that much more at 28,000 which is less than 9mm and 40 S&W at 35,000, and less than the 10mm at 37,500. and it's important to note that most commercial 10mm ammo is only loaded to the same 35,000 PSI as the 40 S&W and only has slightly greater velocities for the same bullet weight than the 40 by virtue of having a larger case for more powder.

Thus, the industry standard velocity for a 200 grain bullet is now 1050 FPS as opposed to the original 1200 fps of the loads Norma tested back when the cartridge was first introduced and loaded to the full 37,500 psi. (See figures for CCI Blazer, Hornady, and PMC) 10mm Auto Ballistics Chart | Ballistics 101

And what most people don't understand about the Underwood, Buffalo Bore, and double Tap ammo is that it is NOT Plus+P ammo, but is simply loaded to maximum allowable SAAMI chamber pressures.

I have a Lone Wolf stainless steel spring guide in my G20. This allows me to try different spring weights and I have found that the standard factory 17 pound spring works best with any factor load and even for shooting 40 S&W ammo, all the way up to the full house UW, BB, an DT loads without any evidence of frame battering. Therefore it would be a simple matter using a spring guide that allows for changing springs, and start out with a slightly heavier than factory spring in a Glock 21 and determine which spring works best for shooting all three, standard 45 ACP ammo, 45 ACP+P, 45 Super, Or reloads.

 

First, great post.

Second... while the Ballistics101 list is useful, everyone needs to keep in mind that it's advertised velocity, not actual velocity. In my limited experience, some of those are accurate, and some of them are overrated by 100 fps.

 

Well, I’m sure by now we all know about the homey badger

 

the homey badger

No. Never heard of the "homey" one.

 

That’s the ugly one that not many know about. I meant the “honey” that just doesn’t give a chit

 

When talking solids, diameter is important. I dont feel you get much more out of 230gr v 255gr as to penetration in a 45. I would be fine running 230gr WNFP @ 1050fps. I also dont feel you get much more out of 220gr in 10mm but recoil. A 200gr WNFP is going 100fps faster, both will exit deer size game broadside easily.

 

The only 220 hard cast I've used in a 10 are from Underwood. According to what I read from Underwood's published numbers their 220's run at the same velocity as their 200 gr hard cast. I'm usually not particularly recoil sensitive but out of all the 10mm loads I've tried they all seem to feel about the same, even when comparing the glorified .40 equivalent loads to the heavy 10mm loads.