Group is measured from center to center. So if your group is shot at 100 yards it's right under .5 MOA. If it's shot at 200 it's about .25 MOA, not something Green Tip or most any AR are capable of in my book. Spacegun with handloads- maybe. Some bolt guns can do 1/4MOA with factory ammo if stars are aligned.

 

On any given day one might shoot a nice 3 hole group. However to get an accurate assessment of the capability of a barrel / rifle we need a much larger mean average in which to do an accurate assessment of a barrel / rifle accuracy. Say 10 groups of 5 round groups minimum will give a good start. 10 round groups would even be better.

 

On any given day one might shoot a nice 3 hole group. However to get an accurate assessment of the capability of a barrel / rifle we need a much larger mean average in which to do an accurate assessment of a barrel / rifle accuracy. Say 10 groups of 5 round groups minimum will give a good start. 10 round groups would even be better.

I am going to the range in a week I will post pics.

The cool thing is this is just a cheap model 1 sales gun. It seems to shoot just as good as anything else too. Its great.

 

Good for you. You got one heck of an AR. There are very few AR's that cost in the $3K and up mark with a match stainless barrel, shooting match grade ammo that will shoot a sub .5 MOA group. Heck a bolt rifle shooting match ammo will be lucky to shoot in the .25 MOA range even for several thousands of dollars.

Guess you are one lucky fella that your Model 1 Sales AR will shoot these groups all day long on rack grade ammo. You should play the lottery. Seriously, all of them.

 

I honestly see other people at the range doing these kinds of groups also. It is a scoped gun and only 100 yards. Maybe its in the air?

Anyway here is the gun
16" ER Shaw Bull Barrel, YHM Carbine length Rail, Ergo RH Grip, nothing else special

Here is a video of me and my friend dueling at about 100 yards. Both model1sales guns and both horrible shots lol. Under stress like that I never realized how much harder it was. Lots of misses lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7g_voNdq1k

 

Do a 5 or better yet a 10 shot group like that then I'll believe it! I've got a target I can crop that has 3 shoots alot closer then that! But when you look at the whole target -10 shots you see the rest of the story! The big thing is also you can't have the gun locked down to a concert slab either! Real men shoot there guns, not vised into a rest and locked to a concrete slab!:rofl: I mean really why take out the human factor ? Cause if your not actually shooting the weapon whats the point!!!

 

The big thing is also you can't have the gun locked down to a concert slab either! Real men shoot there guns, not vised into a rest and locked to a concrete slab!:rofl: I mean really why take out the human factor ? Cause if your not actually shooting the weapon whats the point!!!

I'm am not fully understanding what you mean by having the gun locked on a concrete slab. All my semi-auto rifles have harris bi-pods. This has nothing to do with my post.

 

Glock Influence
The point I wish to make is I see on here and many other forums posts of little groups along with the rifle -vised down in a lead sled( for a .223/5.56mm-really? Man that recoil is so harsh) and the boasting of these real small groups! Why? All you proved was the gun is accurate -not the shooter! Now if all you shoot is paper I guess thats fine! But if you hunt or use that same gun for SD purposes it's kind of hard to carry that bench/lead sled around with you !! You said you used the tripod- was your stock sand bagged as well? Shoot them same groups from feild positions then you impress me!:supergrin:

See my attached small group -a four shotter! Shot off just sand bags under for arm-100yards!:tongueout:

 

Glock Influence
The point I wish to make is I see on here and many other forums posts of little groups along with the rifle -vised down in a lead sled( for a .223/5.56mm-really? Man that recoil is so harsh) and the boasting of these real small groups! Why? All you proved was the gun is accurate -not the shooter! Now if all you shoot is paper I guess thats fine! But if you hunt or use that same gun for SD purposes it's kind of hard to carry that bench/lead sled around with you !! You said you used the tripod- was your stock sand bagged as well? Shoot them same groups from feild positions then you impress me!:supergrin:

See my attached small group -a four shotter! Shot off just sand bags under for arm-100yards!:tongueout:

I thought the point was how good the rifle could could group.



Amirite?

 

Glock Influence
-vised down in a lead sled( for a .223/5.56mm-really? All you proved was the gun is accurate -not the shooter! it's kind of hard to carry that bench/lead sled around with you !! You said you used the tripod- was your stock sand bagged as well? Shoot them same groups from feild positions then you impress me!:supergrin: :

No I do not have or use a "lead sled" nor sand bags when I shoot.
I did not come here to prove I am a better shooter than anyone.
I did not post here to compete with another claiming I am better than anyone else.
I posted to see if my understanding of MOA was correct. Like I said I stumbled on that picture while I was browsing my photo bucket account. I do not have the original picture so I can't prove that there were nor do I remember if there were other 3 round groups all around the paper. But proving I am a decent shot was not my purpose for posting.

 

My experience with green tip has been less than impressive, maybe you had a good lot number? Just with iron sights at 25 yards, I can see a drastic improvement just from going from M855 to Mk262. If that group is the case at 100 yards, it's a very good group.

 

No I do not have or use a "lead sled" nor sand bags when I shoot.
I did not come here to prove I am a better shooter than anyone.
I did not post here to compete with another claiming I am better than anyone else.
I posted to see if my understanding of MOA was correct. Like I said I stumbled on that picture while I was browsing my photo bucket account. I do not have the original picture so I can't prove that there were nor do I remember if there were other 3 round groups all around the paper. But proving I am a decent shot was not my purpose for posting.

My point has nothing to do with shooter skill. My point is that with the M16/AR/M4 platform of rifle it is very difficult to get one that is a .5MOA or sub .5MOA scoped or not, from a rest or not, without a match type barrel, correct cut chamber and match type ammo. Even in a locked down rest this platform of weapon has a difficult time achieving that type of accuracy.

Even a high dollar bolt action rifle, which is far more accurate of a platform due to consistent chambering of the round has a very hard time achieving this kind of accuracy, unless if you spend money wisely.

So if you can shoot numerous 5 shot and 10 shot groups and come up with a reasonable mean average of .5MOA or less with less than stellar ammo, out of a non-match type barrel than you basically hit the powerball lottery. Literally. I work with this platform day in and day out. I build high end custom rifles and I have yet to see an off the shelf type AR such as yours, be able to shoot sub .5MOA groups all day, every day, no matter what ammo is shot through it. M855 ammo? Go to Vegas and bet everything you own on red or black because you are one lucky fella.

 

I really am not sure why I am even responding at this point but once again. I was asking an entirely different question that has nothing to do with someone believing or disbelieving someones ability to shoot well. Or the physical nature of one type of ammunition or another or there experience with said ammo and what they know of what it is capable of.

Hey guess what... lets say it was a match barrel with match grade ammo. Ok nice group huh? But guess what? I could care less about what anyone thinks of either my shooting skills or if I am trustworthy and telling the truth. I asked a simple question and it was answered.

Thank you ... this thread is over... on to the next

 

There is no reason to get upset about what is being said here. This has zero to do with your skills as a shooter. Most here are simply saying that a battle type, off the rack rifle, with off the rack ammo, is a freak of nature if the rifle can shoot sub .5MOA groups. Meaning that if you put the rifle in a vice and take out the shooter influence, there are few rifles in this configuration that can produce such results.

Again anyone can produce a good, lone, 3 shot group. But by industry standards this is by far an unacceptable way to produce a claim of accuracy. Now you say that this rifle can shoot these results "all day". Now if you can produce a verifiable test of this than great for you. You have yourself a freak of nature rifle and are indeed a very lucky guy!

Now if you are really interested in a claim of accuracy that can be considered accurate and as for a standard that we can look at in which we you can start making reliable claims of accuracy, think of it in these terms. Try 5 round groups at the minimum. 10 round groups are better for a mean accuracy. Then shoot about 50 rounds in either 5 round or 10 round groups. In other words, if you can show 10 (ten) verified groups of 5 (five) rounds each all within a dime, or 5 (five) groups of 10 (ten) rounds in a similar grouping, then you will have a much more accurate assessment of the rifles accuracy.

Don't get defensive as no one is questioning your ability as a marksman, but the question is the ability of your rack grade rifle, shooting rack grade ammo, with a sub .5MOA ability. If it truly is a sub .5MOA rifle then again, you are one lucky fella.

 

Can happen I did it 5 shots

and here is the gun

 

There is no reason to get upset about what is being said here. This has zero to do with your skills as a shooter. Most here are simply saying that a battle type, off the rack rifle, with off the rack ammo, is a freak of nature if the rifle can shoot sub .5MOA groups. Meaning that if you put the rifle in a vice and take out the shooter influence, there are few rifles in this configuration that can produce such results.

Again anyone can produce a good, lone, 3 shot group. But by industry standards this is by far an unacceptable way to produce a claim of accuracy. Now you say that this rifle can shoot these results "all day". Now if you can produce a verifiable test of this than great for you. You have yourself a freak of nature rifle and are indeed a very lucky guy!

Now if you are really interested in a claim of accuracy that can be considered accurate and as for a standard that we can look at in which we you can start making reliable claims of accuracy, think of it in these terms. Try 5 round groups at the minimum. 10 round groups are better for a mean accuracy. Then shoot about 50 rounds in either 5 round or 10 round groups. In other words, if you can show 10 (ten) verified groups of 5 (five) rounds each all within a dime, or 5 (five) groups of 10 (ten) rounds in a similar grouping, then you will have a much more accurate assessment of the rifles accuracy.

Don't get defensive as no one is questioning your ability as a marksman, but the question is the ability of your rack grade rifle, shooting rack grade ammo, with a sub .5MOA ability. If it truly is a sub .5MOA rifle then again, you are one lucky fella.

This is what I am talking about. I will not be rude this time or show any type of aggression. I made the mistake of posting this in the "black rifle" section. Posting pictures of my gun, saying it was m855 ammo etc. All I wanted to know was if my understanding of MOA was correct. I shouldn't have to be typing this right now. Any further posts are obvious acts of trying to annoy or provoke me. Since you can read my previous posts you are not illiterate. Please Realize there is nothing further you need to say in this thread.

 

Glock Influence
And obviously you took what I said the wrong way!:whistling: My question to you are you a competitive shooter? Are you trying to win compititions with long rang small groups? If not then .5 MOA is great but not as useful for SD/plinking! For long range compititions yep you need .5 MOA or better for just everyday shooting and most hunting situations 1 MOA is all you need!:supergrin: And if you truely get .5 MOA from a 16" AR you got a great shooter enjoy!:supergrin:

 

Novocaine answered your question early on. What else do you want?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minute_of_Angle

 

Glock Influence
And obviously you took what I said the wrong way!:whistling: My question to you are you a competitive shooter? Are you trying to win compititions with long rang small groups? If not then .5 MOA is great but not as useful for SD/plinking! For long range compititions yep you need .5 MOA or better for just everyday shooting and most hunting situations 1 MOA is all you need!:supergrin: And if you truely get .5 MOA from a 16" AR you got a great shooter enjoy!:supergrin:

There is a time and a place for bench shooting and there is a time to practice field positions. Both have their place. Dogging on someone because they shot better groups than you can from a bench is silly. No need to be threatened by another persons ability rather it be from the bench or off hand. To the OP you should be shooting 5 shot groups not 3 to measure gun accuracy. Actually an average of 5 5 shot groups is better yet or a 10 shot group. This is why. Sometimes weird stuff happens.

One ball group.

Then the next

Ball ammo is very inconsistent and sometimes you get lucky. Ammo loaded with match bullets are much more consistent.

Pat

 

This is what I am talking about. I will not be rude this time or show any type of aggression. I made the mistake of posting this in the "black rifle" section. Posting pictures of my gun, saying it was m855 ammo etc. All I wanted to know was if my understanding of MOA was correct. I shouldn't have to be typing this right now. Any further posts are obvious acts of trying to annoy or provoke me. Since you can read my previous posts you are not illiterate. Please Realize there is nothing further you need to say in this thread.

You really are the one reading too much into peoples posts. The questions were answered but you didn't like what you read. A few of us here have tried to explain what MOA is and a fair or accurate way to come to that conclusion for a rifle. There is no knock against you as a shooter or your rifle. It is pure fact, even if it were a Colt, BCM rifle etc. The fact of the matter remains that a standard battle type carbine is normally not anywhere near capable of shooting sub .5 MOA groups, especially when you factor in ammo that is not known to be highly accurate. If your rifle truly can do this, than be thankful because you are indeed lucky. Why your taking so much offense to this is beyond me?

This thread has explained how to measure MOA and how many rounds or groups that your should shoot out of your weapon to get a good average or mean average of the groups to come up with a MOA claim for a rifle.

You really are taking people who are replying in this thread the wrong way. You are the one over-reacting to the honest responses. If you don't want to hear accurate answers from people who know what they are speaking about, then don't ask the questions.

MOA can be measured center to center, or from the outside to outside of the farthest spread of hits (measured at the gas ring) then you can subtract the size of the bullet itself. Simple enough.

For the rest of it, the only responsible or accurate way to come up with a rifles MOA or accuracy is to shoot a larger quantity of test group which will rule out factors such as shooter, conditions, ammo etc... A larger test, or "control group" will yield a much more accurate assessment of accuracy.

I don't know how to explain this any more simply or nicely.

 

Can happen I did it 5 shots



and here is the gun

Uhm, that is a bit of apples to oranges in consideration to the topic. We are talking about a battle grade rifle, shooting very average ammo. I already mentioned that a standard rifle in this category will not likely shoot sub .5MOA unless if it is a stainless match barrel, with match chamber, and quality ammo. Your JP barreled rifle does not fit in to the standard battle rifle category and is a far cry from the Model 1 sales rifle we are talking about.

Again I never said this platform can't shoot sub .5MOA groups, as I build high end rifles in this platform that can shoot in that range, but I have yet to see an off the shelf non-match rifle, with mediocre ammo ever achieve this. And a single 3 shot group or even a single 5 shot group is not good enough to make this claim.

Nice rifle BTW.

 

For what it is worth . . . Here is a 100 yard 5 shot 1/2" group from my new 16" BCM BFH mid length. An EOTech XPS2-0 with a 3x magnifier was used. A Harris bipod was used up front and a squeeze bag was used under the stock.

The ammo used was a Hornady 55 gr. FMJ training, which is my basic plinking ammo along with the PMC 55 gr. FMJ.

For a new rig, I am quite pleased, so far. This is proving to be one fun blaster. I simply wanted to see how accurate this new rig could be. The first picture is at the range using a cell phone, last weekend. The second pic is using a camera at home.

 

For what it is worth . . . Here is a 100 yard 5 shot 1/2" group from my new 16" BCM BFH mid length. An EOTech XPS2-0 with a 3x magnifier was used. A Harris bipod was used up front and a squeeze bag was used under the stock.

The ammo used was a Hornady 55 gr. FMJ training, which is my basic plinking ammo along with the PMC 55 gr. FMJ.

For a new rig, I am quite pleased, so far. This is proving to be one fun blaster. I simply wanted to see how accurate this new rig could be. The first picture is at the range using a cell phone, last weekend. The second pic is using a camera at home.

That is fine shooting but 1 group does not tell the story. Go back to my first 2 pics in post 20. One group with ball was .826 and the next one was nearly three times that size as 2.776. Ball ammo is generally not that accurate. Sometimes things come together like the group you got but it does not indicate what that ammo/rifle combination can be relied upon to deliver.
Pat

 

every once in a while a simple factory unmodified gun proves to be a gem. as far as ar's being hard to get to shoot 1/2 moa- don't les baer rifles come with a 1/2 moa guarantee ? yes they cost around 2 k and up, but it is possible. In this equation the surprise is the green tip ammo, rarely have I ever heard good things about green tip as far as precision accuracy goes

 

every once in a while a simple factory unmodified gun proves to be a gem. as far as ar's being hard to get to shoot 1/2 moa- don't les baer rifles come with a 1/2 moa guarantee ? yes they cost around 2 k and up, but it is possible. In this equation the surprise is the green tip ammo, rarely have I ever heard good things about green tip as far as precision accuracy goes

Yes good custom precision AR's often come with accuracy guarantees around .5 to .75 moa. However that is with match ammo specified by the builder not green tip military ammo.
Pat