[MarkCO]

FWIW the DPD range has had a very good relationship with Sig and a number of their range staff carried them.

That is true. And SIGs response to their inquiries makes "had" the operative word in that sentence. I was at the range with one of the lead range staff a few months ago. We had a good talk.

 

[Deputydave]

See you keep adding that qualifier of serviceable

As explained to you, multiple times, it's because it is applicable to the discussion. If a broken or modified Glock discharged in the holster would you blame the Glock? Of course not.

they were all considered serviceable until the uncommanded discharge happened.

This is incorrect. Your one example had a broken trigger. That damage caused it to allegedly discharge without the trigger being pulled. All the other examples never once stated they pistol involved in the P320 incident was broken, damaged or modified. The appendix you are hanging your hat on is simply another straw grab to prop up your bias.

Official police investigations have determined the gun at fault and not the operator

Can you post a link to an official investigation that had a qualified expert demonstrate a post-upgrade P320 in serviceable condition was capable of discharging without the trigger being pulled. It's simple yes or no question. But I don't expect an answer because you've dodged that simply question for a couple of years now.

As far as taking Coloshooter’s word for it, why not. He could have told a better lie if it wasn’t true .

The only reason you are accepting an unverified post based on rumor from an unknown member is because it props up your (self-admitted) biased POV. You have completely discarded or outright ignored members here in this thread that are Sig certified armorers that have stated the pistol is incapable of discharging without the trigger being depressed. Why? Because you have brand-bais and an agenda.

 

[TrailWalker]

@Deputydave, did you sell or otherwise dispose of your P320(s)/variants?

 

[COLOSHOOTR]

That is correct. And since a post-upgrade P320 in serviceable condition is incapable of discharging without the trigger being depressed, as demonstrated by the available evidence, the logical conclusion is FOD. Occam's razor.

Then my question is why does it always seem to be the P320 when another holstered pistols goes bang and not other brands like Glock?

Are you a firearm expert that can definitively say the P320 can not fire without a trigger pull or are you just taking Sig's word for it?

Sig already got caught lying once regarding the drop safe issue why wouldn't they lie about this?

BTW own a P320 so I'm not just some Glock fan boy trying to s**t on Sig. I'm just trying to be objective about it and based on the videos it is very possible there is a real problem. That lobby video in Montville really made me think twice about the P320, especially when Sig jumped on the bandwagon about the holster claiming the tourniquet strap was the hood and the pistol was not fully seated. Yet anyone who actually uses that gear could tell it was a CAT tourniquet strap they were pointing to as the claimed retention hood.

I even believe Sig will eventually get to the bottom of it but they will do a quiet fix and won't admit to any flaws.

 

[COLOSHOOTR]

That is true. And SIGs response to their inquiries makes "had" the operative word in that sentence. I was at the range with one of the lead range staff a few months ago. We had a good talk.

I also heard that conversation didn't go well. Apparently the range was willing to work with Sig on a fix in order to keep them in service but Sig didn't seem to have any interest in that cooperation.

Too bad though because the trigger is really nice on the P320, especially the X Series ones. I've got a lot of $ invested in mine for it to now become a safe queen.

 

[Deputydave]

@Deputydave, did you sell or otherwise dispose of your P320(s)/variants?

I owned one P320 about 7-8 years ago. During those years I was still heavy into instructing firearm courses (academy, in-service, EOT, security and CCW). I had certain pistols that were 'my' pistols (personal HD and off-duty). And I had several pistols I rotated. By this I mean I had no special attachment to them and used them for instruction purposes. I wanted to have as broad an exposure to different brands and models as I felt was reasonable. My students for CCW ranged the gambit from revolver to pocket pistol to main stream full/compact/subcompact pistols. The P320 was really picking up steam around that time so I picked one up used in a trade. Learned the normal stuff with it that you would need to know i.e. maintenance, quirks, drills etc. Used it for classes for maybe 6 months and then traded it for something else to get experience on. Students liked the pistol. I liked the pistol but had no special attachment to it as it was a 'training' pistol.

I've owned a couple of P250's and to be honest, like the P250 better except for the funky rear sight. But I lean towards hammer-fired pistols anyway generally.

All the horse trading was good experience and for whatever reason I usually fell backwards into really good deals. I actually turned a Hi-Point into an HK through a series of trades.

 

[Deputydave]

Then my question is why does it always seem to be the P320 when another holstered pistols goes bang and not other brands like Glock?

Um, you realize that Glock is the poster child of ND's including in-holster discharges, right? The term is 'Glock leg' not 'P320 leg'. I have a video of one such Glock ND incident in this thread.

Are you a firearm expert that can definitively say the P320 can not fire without a trigger pull or are you just taking Sig's word for it?

Well yes, I am a firearms expert in several areas and an expert witness in those areas. As far as engineering on this particular pistol I simply go by what the experts have stated in investigations and court cases.

 

[TrailWalker]

I owned one P320 about 7-8 years ago. During those years I was still heavy into instructing firearm courses (academy, in-service, EOT, security and CCW). I had certain pistols that were 'my' pistols (personal HD and off-duty). And I had several pistols I rotated. By this I mean I had no special attachment to them and used them for instruction purposes. I wanted to have as broad an exposure to different brands and models as I felt was reasonable. My students for CCW ranged the gambit from revolver to pocket pistol to main stream full/compact/subcompact pistols. The P320 was really picking up steam around that time so I picked one up used in a trade. Learned the normal stuff with it that you would need to know i.e. maintenance, quirks, drills etc. Used it for classes for maybe 6 months and then traded it for something else to get experience on. Students liked the pistol. I liked the pistol but had no special attachment to it as it was a 'training' pistol.

I've owned a couple of P250's and to be honest, like the P250 better except for the funky rear sight. But I lean towards hammer-fired pistols anyway generally.

All the horse trading was good experience and for whatever reason I usually fell backwards into really good deals. I actually turned a Hi-Point into an HK through a series of trades.

My favorite Sig was also in the classic series, a P226 Legion. It was factory delivered with a Grey Guns trigger that if anything, was too light for me on SA. Alas… I’ve had a lot of Sigs.

I felt the P320 was a nicely balanced firearm with a great trigger for the price.

 

[Deputydave]

My favorite Sig was also in the classic series, a P226 Legion. It was factory delivered with a Grey Guns trigger that if anything, was too light for me on SA. Alas… I’ve had a lot of Sigs.

I've had a couple of P226's. Very nice pistol. I have a poll here on the forum where the P226 and HK USP are running neck-n-neck. My favorite is the P229 but have to admit there is something about the P239 that just catches my attention.

I felt the P320 was a nicely balanced firearm with a great trigger for the price.

It was a nice pistol. The grip frame it had was the one that had the half cut-outs on each side of the magwell. Made it really easy for malfunction drills. Some pistols just aren't easy to rip out a mag when you have something like a double-feed. The Taurus PT709 was one such example. Ate everything it was fed and it was accurate. But the baseplate was just not easy to grip to rip. That's what I mean by learning the quirks of a pistol. That way when a new student came in with a recently purchased XYZ I could give him the 411 on various aspects of the pistol.

 

[COLOSHOOTR]

Um, you realize that Glock is the poster child of ND's including in-holster discharges, right? The term is 'Glock leg' not 'P320 leg'. I have a video of one such Glock ND incident in this thread.

I'm very well aware of the term. My class Sergeant at the academy shot himself in the leg with a Glock in the range parking lot. Everyone including him knew it was the operator and not the gun. At least he used it as a teaching moment. Yes, it can happen with any gun no matter how "safe" it is when the operator is being stupid.

Lets be honest though, most of the bad rap for Glock happened nearly 40 years ago when it first began to be adopted by police agencies. The same guys that put shell casings in their ears for ear pro were given a new gun with a 5lb trigger to replace their DA revolver or DA/SA semi auto pistol that had a 12lb trigger that was a bit more forgiving of stupidity. Hence the terrible Glock NY trigger.

Now single action pistols are common place and training is significantly better than it was 40 years ago.

In 20 years I personally know of 2 discharges that were caused by objects. One was a mic cable and the other a sweatshirt at an in-service class. Both discharged as they were being holstered when the object snagged the trigger and their hands were still on the gun.
When it is an object it's almost always when re-holstering and rarely ever just something that gets in the holster and catches the trigger randomly when waking or getting out of the car.

Yet every few months another new video drops of a P320 going off in a holster with hands totally off the pistol. Yet we dont see the same with S&W, H&K, Glock or any other brands. Videos of the other brands usually have the operators hand on the gun or during holstering making operator error or an object much more plausible and likely.

If you have videos of other brands besides Sig going off in holsters while not being handled at all I'd like to see them so feel free to post them here.

 

[walkinguf61]

As explained to you, multiple times, it's because it is applicable to the discussion. If a broken or modified Glock discharged in the holster would you blame the Glock? Of course not.



This is incorrect. Your one example had a broken trigger. That damage caused it to allegedly discharge without the trigger being pulled. All the other examples never once stated they pistol involved in the P320 incident was broken, damaged or modified. The appendix you are hanging your hat on is simply another straw grab to prop up your bias.



Can you post a link to an official investigation that had a qualified expert demonstrate a post-upgrade P320 in serviceable condition was capable of discharging without the trigger being pulled. It's simple yes or no question. But I don't expect an answer because you've dodged that simply question for a couple of years now.



The only reason you are accepting an unverified post based on rumor from an unknown member is because it props up your (self-admitted) biased POV. You have completely discarded or outright ignored members here in this thread that are Sig certified armorers that have stated the pistol is incapable of discharging without the trigger being depressed. Why? Because you have brand-bais and an agenda.

If Glock continued to have uncommanded discharges in the holster without any operator error like Sig is having , and your caveat of “serviceable “ was there , I would still blame Glock. Why? Because the guns were found to be serviceable in an inspection by an sig certified armorer less than 6 months before . There is also no way for the user to know the gun is not “serviceable “before such an incident can occur . Many of the early claims of this phenomenon sent the gun back to Sig for repairs. So many of these guns are not “ serviceable” by your standards and so are many on the hips of police officers right now . .

As far as believing Coloshooter, I do just as I would believe you about a report a department you work with is saying something. Unlike the other sources on Denver, I can actually communicate with him. Notice that I was the one who identified the department and he was attempting to keep it vague on purpose before that as not give up opsec as to his identity. And note how his story isn’t I heard it from a cop there etc as a someone who might lie would say . Again, I point to Sean Connery ‘s brilliant performance in the untouchables to explain that . And note, my belief is that Denver PD is claiming that .
As far as sig armorers saying it’s not possible, I remember some sig armorers saying something similar with the drop issue too.
As far as recreating it in a serviceable condition sig 320, who is to say that the guns involved were in a “serviceable “ condition? That’s the point . Many might not be in a serviceable condition but are still in the holsters of officers in the field. That’s the point and argument that it might be quality control issues causing the problem.

Now, here is a question for you. If all the testing variables are accounted for in this new “internet “test to see if the striker block works, why is there a percentage of the P320’s failing and others passing ? And yes, I know testing variables can cause false positives and false negatives but when retested numerous times to account for it, it’s the same p320s passing and the same ones failing?

 

[Deputydave]

Everyone including him knew it was the operator and not the gun.

And thus it is with the P320 according the the actual evidence.

Lets be honest though, most of the bad rap for Glock happened nearly 40 years ago when it first began to be adopted by police agencies.

That's when it started, it did not end 40 years ago. It's continued throughout the decades/years.

Now single action pistols are common place and training is significantly better than it was 40 years ago.

Yes, striker-fired pistols are common place. In 'some' areas training is vastly improved. However, overall, skill set has gone down significantly.

When it is an object it's almost always when re-holstering and rarely ever just something that gets in the holster and catches the trigger randomly when waking or getting out of the car.

You would have to supply stats to demonstrate your premise.

If you have videos of other brands besides Sig going off in holsters while not being handled at all I'd like to see them so feel free to post them here.

Been posted in the P320 mega-thread.

 

[TexasPOff]

Looks like the Sig Armorer is adding fuel to the SIG dumpster fire. If this is true, there is going to be a lot of crickets coming from the 320 fans and supporters.

TXPO

 

[Deputydave]

Now, here is a question for you. If all the testing variables are accounted for in this new “internet “test to see if the striker block works, why is there a percentage of the P320’s failing and others passing ?

Are you talking about the video of the slide being disassembled and you stick a screwdriver inside?

 

[walkinguf61]

Rumor on YouTube is The Sig Armorer | The Choice of Champions
is going to announce some time next week what they believe is the problem causing the uncommanded discharges and their fix .

 

[walkinguf61]

Are you talking about the video of the slide being disassembled and you stick a screwdriver inside?

The same testing TexasPoff did.

 

[Deputydave]

The same testing TexasPoff did.

When people start walking around with disassembled slides with screwdrivers sticking out of them then maybe it will be of interest. But feel free to latch on to this as the 'next' smoking gun.

 

[TrailWalker]

Rumor on YouTube is The Sig Armorer | The Choice of Champions
is going to announce some time next week what they believe is the problem causing the uncommanded discharges and their fix .

Long overdue. Show us the issue if there is one, demonstrate the failure mode, and if necessary issue the correction.

 

[walkinguf61]

When people start walking around with disassembled slides with screwdrivers sticking out of them then maybe it will be of interest. But feel free to latch on to this as the 'next' smoking gun.

Again, explain if the testing variables are accounted for, why are same P320s passing the tests and others aren’t . The test repeatedly done and it’s the same ones passing or failing . The conclusion can be that there is a mechanical difference between the pistols that constantly pass and those that constantly fail.

 

[walkinguf61]

Long overdue. Show us the issue if there is one, demonstrate the failure mode, and if necessary issue the correction.

I hope the rumor is true and they have a fix coming out .