[boilergonzo]

I was ok with the 320 until the videos of the guns going off in the holster. Hands away from it. There are plenty of reports from the military that show similar situations. Saw a video this morning talking about the MIM parts are the issue. Tolerance stacking. Makes sense. I have a P226 Legion. No issues with that one. I have had two 320's. The first one had zero issues. Sold it off. Regretted it. Grabbed another one. Had ignition issues. Light primer strikes. Oddly enough.

How the P320 Cost Sig Millions (the Untold Story of Sig Sauer)

Actually, despite the widespread hatred on gun forums of MIM parts, they are typically FAR more precisely sized. Some of the most critical parts made are made from MIM (aircraft engine parts), and some of the best steels can come from MIM processes (some of the finest knife blades, etc.).

Poorly made steel is poorly made steel. Poorly made MIM is poorly made MIM. But well made products are simply well-made (MIM or not). The local race engine company (I live near the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, and one of the former drivers has a racing store) uses MIM for lots of critical parts.

I get that your second 320 was a stinker. But I would be skeptical it was due to MIM. Poor QC, bad steel, bad springs, who knows? No excuse for it. But there are a whole lot of 320's out there working well. And there are a whole lot of Gen5 Glock threads where guns are not working out of the box. I think the issues are statistically probably very, very similar.

 

[Richard Taracka]

The Bay Area, and CA, are hardly representative of most of the U.S. Methinks you need a better sample population.

I wager the P320 will be just fine.

The military contract alone will insure the P320's longevity.

 

[walkinguf61]

Precisely. From what I have seen over the years, I would venture to say that most law enforcement officers are not gun people. Most only shoot once a year for qualification and that is it. They also have very poor safe-handling practices. That said, there are some very sharp and experience officers who are on the ball. These are NOT the ones who are having issues. The same goes for some civilians as has been seen in a couple videos. Their pistol discharged while holstered because they finger tripped the trigger accidentally because their finger was not outside the holster, rather it was between the pistol and the holster. This happens when the holster being used is improper as it exposed the trigger when holstered allowing space for a finger or a foreign object to accidentally engage the trigger. These are but a few of the reasons why LE and military investigators and SIG's own investigators cannot replicate the issue. Since the first incident in 2018, I have yet to see any finite evidence that there is any mechanical or design flaw in the P320. SIG did institute a voluntary upgrade program, though unnecessary in my opinion, for any P320 made prior to 2019. Since 2019, SIG has incorporated those couple of changes into all P320s.

Just the fact you say you think the voluntary upgrade was unnecessary, hurts your credibility.
The many of incidents of video and direct examination of the holsters have determined it was not operator error , nor a foreign object that pulled the trigger. What does that leave? The gun. That’s why many departments have dropped the gun from their inventory after such an incident .
In the Washington state police academy report appendix they were able to duplicate the issue of a uncommanded discharge .

 

[boilergonzo]

And Sig just happened to change their manual during this tizzy. Sure doesn’t inspire, confidence, trust or a good business practice to me

When folks start filing lawsuits (many frivolous, some perhaps having merit), the lawsuits build. And lawyers insert language to protect themselves.

Remember unintended rollover of sport utes? A lie that was rigged to fail in a media event?

Remember the Audi unintended acceleration? Then the Toyota unintended acceleration? Both companies added notes to the manuals, tags on the floor mats, etc. The unintended acceleration NEVER HAPPENED!!! It was a fabrication that cost both companies money and reputation.

Remember the class action lawsuit against Glock for unsupported chambers? Was it real and a true risk to human life and limb? KaBOOM!, right?!? "Hand-held hand grenades" some called them. Walking time bombs. For the record, I kept my THREE Glock guns that are on the lawsuit list, and still fire them with confidence because I know the kernel of truth about the barrel being a smidge less supported isn't really and truly putting my hand in grave danger. KaBOOM! Bah! Despite the crowds screaming it, I viewed it like... well, the 320 (post-fix... pre-fix is a different story!).

The lawsuits were filed by the truckload, and the lawyers attached notes to prevent the fan-fiction from gaining too much advantage in court. Unintended acceleration was a boogeyman for lawyers to profit from.

 

[Dies]

This is getting good...

Let's get this merged!


🍿

 

[mrmike7189]

Even so, mine have been pretty flawless over the years and I prefer them over US made Sigs. I’m a stickler for country of origin. I prefer Austrian made Glocks also.

I can understand that. I like my "Made in Austria "Gen 2 Glock 19 and I prefer my Japanese cars to be "Madein Japan ".

 

[CallMeSki]

SIG has a buttload of money from the government contracts. A few PDs dropping them isn't going to significantly hurt their bottom line. They'll wind up making some modifications to the design that are able to be dropped in by an armorer and claim that this fixes the problem.

Rick, I don't really see how they can do that since, in effect, they'll be admitting there is a problem with the original design.

They're in a "Damned if you do, Damned if you don't situation. "

Of course, what do I know ?? I'm just a retired, busted up old cowboy!

 

[walkinguf61]

And you believed that??

That they contacted Sig? And talked to anyone they could there ? Yes, I believe that. That Sig would have done a lot to keep the Milwaukee contract like have the gun designer talk to the Milwaukee armorer to tell him how safe the design is? Why not? Do I believe that the Milwaukee armorer wanted something extra like that spring added back ? Yes , I do. I have seen too many times a range armorer think they know better than the gun company or designer . Just look at the stunning genuses who demanded things like NY2 trigger.

I also know how manufacturers have been found making changes to the product without telling departments of the changes . For example, the NYPD caught Speer changing the 124+p gold dot rounds. The NYPD retested the rounds and found them acceptable but were not happy they had to “catch” the change.

I saw the lengths Glock went to to keep the NYPD contract during the phase 3 malfunction thing. Including coming to New York to cut the chambers on thousands of guns before the changed the design of the extractor .

 

[QNman]

That they contacted Sig? And talked to anyone they could there ? Yes, I believe that. That Sig would have done a lot to keep the Milwaukee contract like have the gun designer talk to the Milwaukee armorer to tell him how safe the design is? Why not? Do I believe that the Milwaukee armorer wanted something extra like that spring added back ? Yes , I do. I have seen too many times a range armorer think they know better than the gun company or designer . Just look at the stunning genuses who demanded things like NY2 trigger.

I also know how manufacturers have been found making changes to the product without telling departments of the changes . For example, the NYPD caught Speer changing the 124+p gold dot rounds. The NYPD retested the rounds and found them acceptable but were not happy they had to “catch” the change.

I saw the lengths Glock went to to keep the NYPD contract during the phase 3 malfunction thing. Including coming to New York to cut the chambers on thousands of guns before the changed the design of the extractor .

I'm thinking I misunderstood... I read that to mean the design engineer at Sig decided they should have kept the spring, and told the armorer as much.

My apologies.

 

[jefwel79]

Sig fans boys gonna try to use it to celebrate but it's still going very bad for Sig. PDs are ditching them fast and the military will come out with it at some point as well.

 

[Deputydave]

Sig fans boys gonna try to use it to celebrate but it's still going very bad for Sig. PDs are ditching them fast and the military will come out with it at some point as well.

Well, not really. The P320 at this moment in time is incredibly popular and has quite a few models. As in a LOT of models. Sig wouldn't have so many models if it wasn't selling well. And last I heard, it's #2 in LE holsters. And while some agencies are dropping it, others are picking it. As far as the military, they seem to hang on to a pistol for quite a while. Considering other militaries are picking the P320 it seems pretty solid in that circle.

 

[jefwel79]

Well, not really. The P320 at this moment in time is incredibly popular and has quite a few models. As in a LOT of models. Sig wouldn't have so many models if it wasn't selling well. And last I heard, it's #2 in LE holsters. And while some agencies are dropping it, others are picking it. As far as the military, they seem to hang on to a pistol for quite a while. Considering other militaries are picking the P320 it seems pretty solid in that circle.

I work in Missouri and all the departments around me are switching up or not even entertaining them. St Louis county just chose Springfield xds

 

[QNman]

Sig fans boys gonna try to use it to celebrate but it's still going very bad for Sig. PDs are ditching them fast and the military will come out with it at some point as well.

Asking for proof does not make one a "fanboy"... just saying.

At the shop where i work part time, I'd say the 320 series gets more attention from buyers (and we sell more) than any other besides the P365. And we carry a LOT of brands and models.

 

[jefwel79]

Asking for proof does not make one a "fanboy"... just saying.

At the shop where i work part time, I'd say the 320 series gets more attention from buyers (and we sell more) than any other besides the P365. And we carry a LOT of brands and models.

I'm sure they still sell, but I see a lot of videos / discussions online and people are not happy with sig or their attitude towards the problems

 

[QNman]

I'm sure they still sell, but I see a lot of videos / discussions online and people are not happy with sig or their attitude towards the problems

True, but right now that's "the bandwagon" - trashing on the P320 gets clicks. Especially for those looking for confirmation bias.

Glock was treated similarly, a long long time ago, but the internet wasn't what it is now. Now, every tacticool wannabe with a camera phone is espousing his infinite knowledge obtained thru YouTube videos and playing Medal of Honor.

 

[pgg00]

I work in Missouri and all the departments around me are switching up or not even entertaining them. St Louis county just chose Springfield xds

The XDs? Figure they would go with the Echelon if selecting Springfield

 

[jefwel79]

I'm sure they still sell, but I see a lot of videos / discussions online and people are not happy with sig or their attitude towards the problems

Btw, I'm not saying everyone that likes Sig is a fanboy, but I'm tired of the denial coming from some people online. I love Glocks but am first to admit they have had their own problems.

 

[Glockman4]

Even before the accusations of inadvertent discharges started I was not super impressed with my P320. I was excited about it as a long time Sig fanboy so when they announced a .45 auto P320 I pre-ordered one.

It was just blah. Had malfunctions on with various types of ammo. Not infrequently, but not frequent enough to diagnose the issue or isolate the problem to a specific mag or ammo type.

When the voluntary safety recall was issued I just chalked it up as a loss and sold it. I had lost a lot of confidence in it being a reliable gun and that was the final straw. Very disappointing for a long time Sig owner.

The P250 was what soured me on the later 320 design, before these inadvertent discharges ever became I thing. I’ve never owned either, but one time we got a used P250 in at the gun shop I worked at. After handling that joke of a thing I couldn’t believe that Sig even put their name on it.

 

[jefwel79]

True, but right now that's "the bandwagon" - trashing on the P320 gets clicks. Especially for those looking for confirmation bias.

Glock was treated similarly, a long long time ago, but the internet wasn't what it is now. Now, every tacticool wannabe with a camera phone is espousing his infinite knowledge obtained thru YouTube videos and playing Medal of Honor.

Hahahaha, too true Sir.

 

[rscalzo40_3620]

PD’s are dropping it left and right.

Customers know about it and stores are stuck with guns they cannot sell. SIG has quarterly quotas that stores are not meeting.

I imagine this is not unique to my area.

Yet another internet expert.