[fg17]

It is a rare collectors item of course.
And as far as I know no-one that is not police and perhaps also some real important security(like embassy/airport or something) are allowed to use pepper spray, ever.

My strong urge to you Americans is that you never let them take away your right to carry firearms or other types of weapons for self defense purposes, NEVER.
They might present it as a "compromise" like that they will only take this particular weapons group away. Agreeing with this is a slippery slope. I can see it on the news, how every school shooting in US is used by the anti-gun lobbygroups for years on end to manipulate people into agreeing with stricter gun laws.

It doesn't just leave you completely vulnerable having to protect yourself and your family with a pencil but it also does strange things to a persons psyche and basic survival mentality after a life time of this anti self defense culture.
They call Americans "gun-nuts" and crazy and all sorts of **** here in europe because of your gun laws, not only the evil beings behind the media but also often the people as well.
Sweden probably have some of the most strict gun laws and self defense laws in Europe(and the world?) and also is the country with one of the most if not the most reported shootings(per capita) per year in Europe right now.

This was my final say about Sweden and its "laws".

So you can't carry a SAP?

 

[Sapman]

So you can't carry a SAP?

"This was my final say about Sweden and its "laws".

 

[fg17]

"This was my final say about Sweden and its "laws".

You didn't answer my question, and then went on to caution us Americans. Like people on a gun board don't know the issues already.

 

[Sapman]

You didn't answer my question, and then went on to caution us Americans. Like people on a gun board don't know the issues already.

You may not have heard it from the perspective from someone who lives in a very different country that knows how it is like without those rights that you may take for granted.

Also, the topic is "the effectiveness of saps".
Do you have any input on that perhaps or do you only want to discuss things that I have stated several times now to be of no interest to me?
I don't claim to "own" this thread but why reply to me specifically with these questions?

 

[fg17]

Also, the topic is "the effectiveness of saps".
Do you have any input on that perhaps or do you only want to discuss things that I have stated several times now to be of no interest to me?
I don't claim to "own" this thread but why reply to me specifically with these questions?

So your asking advice on how to use and the effectiveness of a weapon that's illegal to have in your country?

And I've already given my input. Since ownership and carry of these weapons in your country is a fantasy, unless you want to be a criminal and all that goes along with that, I suggest a good martial arts class.

 

[Sapman]

So your asking advice on how to use and the effectiveness of a weapon that's illegal to have in your country?

And I've already given my input. Since ownership and carry of these weapons in your country is a fantasy, unless you want to be a criminal and all that goes along with that, I suggest a good martial arts class.

Why do you even reply to this thread if you are not gonna discuss the topic?

This topic is a "in theory" question for me mostly, I do move about in other countries than Sweden and the information posted here is intended for other use as well.
Far from everyone who collects,discuss and use information about these weapons ever plan to go out and wack people with them and most probably never will in their lifetime.

There is youtube channel that a member posted a link to earlier in this thread called "object history" where he shares a wealth of information on mostly outlawed weapons, I hardly think that he ever takes these weapons from his collectors box and goes out and beats people with them.

Begone now.

 

[Sapman]

To the moderator on this sub-forum:
Could you remove the off-topic back and forth between me and fg17? I feel that this thread have quite a lot of good stories and knowledge and for someone who wants to read about this topic to have to go through an entire page of this "nonsense" seems really unnecessary and off putting.
Thank you

 

[fg17]

Why do you even reply to this thread if you are not gonna discuss the topic?

This topic is a "in theory" question for me mostly, I do move about in other countries than Sweden and the information posted here is intended for other use as well.
Far from everyone who collects,discuss and use information about these weapons ever plan to go out and wack people with them and most probably never will in their lifetime.

There is youtube channel that a member posted a link to earlier in this thread called "object history" where he shares a wealth of information on mostly outlawed weapons, I hardly think that he ever takes these weapons from his collectors box and goes out and beats people with them.

Begone now.

Well, you seem pretty interested in the actual use and deployment (of an illegal weapon in your country). For all we know your a criminal looking for advice on how to use said illegal weapon for nefarious activities.

You say you don't trust pepper spray, then go on to say it's highly illegal in your country. So you never used it? Maybe had it used on you?
You also seem to have trouble discussing basic laws of your country.

https://info.tradera.com/en/weapons-and-weapon-related-items/

Examples of prohibited hand weapons

• Nunchucks
• Knuckle dusters
• Throwing stars
• Led or metal reinforced sticks
• Staves, crutches or sticks
• Clubs, batons and black jacks
• Monkey fist

 

[fg17]

I am neither cop nor security but I still want something to protect myself and knifes and firearms is out of the question because I want the less lethal option(and I don't trust sprays at all).

I would prefer that only the flat saps(so no jacks or other impact weapons) and its effectiveness is discussed in this thread.

Also, I do not have the possibility to only roam in the nice neighborhoods at the right time of day and instantly running away from a dangerous situation is for undisclosed reasons not always and option for me so please answers/discussions about flat saps effectiveness only, so no legal advice and alternative methods of self-defense.

This topic is a "in theory" question for me mostly, I do move about in other countries than Sweden and the information posted here is intended for other use as well.
Far from everyone who collects,discuss and use information about these weapons ever plan to go out and wack people with them and most probably never will in their lifetime.

There is youtube channel that a member posted a link to earlier in this thread called "object history" where he shares a wealth of information on mostly outlawed weapons, I hardly think that he ever takes these weapons from his collectors box and goes out and beats people with them.

Begone now.

doesn't sound like an "in theory" question to me.

 

[Sapman]

Well, you seem pretty interested in the actual use and deployment (of an illegal weapon in your country). For all we know your a criminal looking for advice on how to use said illegal weapon for nefarious activities.

You say you don't trust pepper spray, then go on to say it's highly illegal in your country. So you never used it? Maybe had it used on you?
You also seem to have trouble discussing basic laws of your country.

https://info.tradera.com/en/weapons-and-weapon-related-items/

Examples of prohibited hand weapons

• Nunchucks
• Knuckle dusters
• Throwing stars
• Led or metal reinforced sticks
• Staves, crutches or sticks
• Clubs, batons and black jacks
• Monkey fist

What do you want?
Did this thread get more replies than your thread or something or do you have some other futile reason to try to derail this thread with nonsense questions about things that I specifically said was of no real interest to me in my first post?
No trouble to discuss it, just a lack of interest.

I asked the moderator to remove the discussion between us and I hope he will because I know from experience that it is super annoying when you found a discussion about a topic you find interesting and that contains a lot of really interesting members that share their story and knowledge and then some big bozo comes in and derails several pages of the thread with nonsense.

I never been charged with anything in my life and never had a man-dance with any kind of authority.
And your link is to an auction website(can't even do that right...) and is not up-to-date which you can confirm yourself by searching for the "prohibited" weapons that are listed in an updated database of swedish law.


We are done, don't reply to me or any thread that I create. Your input is not wanted.

 

[Nanuk]

How bent are we talking about?
Just enough so it couldn't be folded or completely curved like a saber or more?

Enough that you could see the curve. I am a big guy.

 

[Mitch Mitchell]

I actually watched some of his videos lately and been considering getting the book.
Is it any good? Is it mostly focused on the historical aspect of the weapons or does he go indepth on targeting, uses and "the good ol days" stories of their use?

His book is primarily about the history, but with some stories and tactics mixed in. He does not go into depth about targeting though. There are plenty of other sources (including some U.N. Peacekeeping training) that cover targets though more focused on batons.

My personal opinion is that saps were a stealth weapon that were more offensive than defensive in nature yet I have seen some good videos on how to fight with them. Fighting would probably not be considered “self defense” but you could get some good ideas on tactics from those.

Mean Gene Leather produces some good coin purses that can be used as saps but you won’t get the “force multiplier“ effect of the spring in a regular sap or blackjack. Several of his products offer some level of “plausible deniability“ if carried in a prohibited area.

For protection against dogs I’d consider a heavy cane or walking stick to be more useful since you can poke and parry in ways you can’t with a sap.

 

[fg17]

What do you want?
Did this thread get more replies than your thread or something or do you have some other futile reason to try to derail this thread with nonsense questions about things that I specifically said was of no real interest to me in my first post?
No trouble to discuss it, just a lack of interest.

I asked the moderator to remove the discussion between us and I hope he will because I know from experience that it is super annoying when you found a discussion about a topic you find interesting and that contains a lot of really interesting members that share their story and knowledge and then some big bozo comes in and derails several pages of the thread with nonsense.

I never been charged with anything in my life and never had a man-dance with any kind of authority.
And your link is to an auction website(can't even do that right...) and is not up-to-date which you can confirm yourself by searching for the "prohibited" weapons that are listed in an updated database of swedish law.


We are done, don't reply to me or any thread that I create. Your input is not wanted.

Perhaps its some type of language barrier or you just like to hear stories of people knocking the **** out of bad guys.

All I asked was legality of saps and other weapons in your country and you seem to have a problem with answering a simple question. This isn't a fantasy larping forum and you seem quite interested in discussing a weapon that you can't even own from the sounds of things.

If your truly interested in self defense like you say you are maybe you should be discussing what weapons, if any, you can actually possess. And if you can't use a weapon what types of H2H training is useful.

Your words:
"your link is to an auction website(can't even do that right...) and is not up-to-date which you can confirm yourself by searching for the "prohibited" weapons that are listed in an updated database of swedish law."

That's what I'm asking, I was having trouble finding what is legal, not a lecture about our gun rights. Figured it was somthing you as an actual citizen of Sweden would easily be able to answer. Jeez!

 

[Sapman]

His book is primarily about the history, but with some stories and tactics mixed in. He does not go into depth about targeting though. There are plenty of other sources (including some U.N. Peacekeeping training) that cover targets though more focused on batons.

My personal opinion is that saps were a stealth weapon that were more offensive than defensive in nature yet I have seen some good videos on how to fight with them. Fighting would probably not be considered “self defense” but you could get some good ideas on tactics from those.

Mean Gene Leather produces some good coin purses that can be used as saps but you won’t get the “force multiplier“ effect of the spring in a regular sap or blackjack. Several of his products offer some level of “plausible deniability“ if carried in a prohibited area.

For protection against dogs I’d consider a heavy cane or walking stick to be more useful since you can poke and parry in ways you can’t with a sap.

I might have to get this book eventually, It's something about his passion for these weapons that really rubs of on you, and that he seem to have done some extensive research is a big plus as well.

Yeah the stealth/quick draw aspect of it seem to be one of its primary uses, from what I read that even applies to when officers use them a lot of times, "didn't know what hit him", "quick strike to the(insert body part)" seem to be common quotes.
Not like an expandable where you do that cool wrist flick to expand it which make a distinct sound that should have a desirable effect on most people.

And yes, it does seem to be more of an offensive weapon overall. I do get the impression tho that using "defensive techniques and impact tools" is best left for those that are extremely skilled in a martial arts that train and spar with them, easier to go on the offensive even if it is to defend yourself.
"Would you try to dodge/evade/deflect if someone is about to punch you or punch him first" kind of scenario.
Maybe I'm wrong?

The mean gene coin saps and others like it do look neat but I never heard of anyone that ever used them for anything other than quickly paying the cashier. They seem to sacrifice quite a lot of what makes a sap what it is but maybe it works just as a regular one in the ways that matter?

Walking cane, for those steep hills of course.

 

[hydro-terp]

And another

The Lamb Method: A Manual with Illustrations of a New Concept in the Use of the Police Baton : Arthur W. Lamb : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

THE LAMB POLICE BATON METHOD, TEACHING PREDICTABLE, ADEQUATE APPLICATION OF BATON FORCE, IS OUTLINED IN THIS MANUAL.THE LAMB METHOD, DEVELOPED BY A 23-YEAR...

archive.org

HT

 

[hydro-terp]

And

Police Baton 001 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Police Baton 001

archive.org

HT

 

[Sapman]

And

Police Baton 001 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Police Baton 001

archive.org

HT

Again, thank you. Interesting reads all of them.
It would be interesting to hear a police veteran make an comparison between the force/ techniques he would use as an civilian contra while in uniform, preferably with the same type of weapons even if that would not be the most likely tool for a civilian.
Seems like a lot of these manuals where written just after(or during) the hippie era and they are very focused on "how it will look" if someone is recording or taking notes for the newspaper an such.

Do you know if the techniques that Arthur Lamb describes for example would be vastly different for a civilian defense situation when there is no real care about upholding some kind of image for your department?
Still without applying lethal force though(hooks to the head and so on)

 

[Cranky old cop]

You could jab with it, and break a bone easier. It was so effective, many depts. had a special pocket in issued trousers to fit it.

I had uniform pants with with a sap/Blackjack pocket long after we couldn’t use them anymore 😏

 

[Sapman]

I had uniform pants with with a sap/Blackjack pocket long after we couldn’t use them anymore 😏

Was it as easy to get a sap out of that pocket and into a striking position as getting a stick out from your belt?

 

[Cranky old cop]

Was it as easy to get a sap out of that pocket and into a striking position as getting a stick out from your belt?

I thought so ………it was different we used a straight stick and a ring on the non gun side . the sap pocket was on the gun side