The smaller expanded diameter and higher velocity of the 357 Sig provided for both deeper penetration and a larger permanent cavity. Both calibers using the same HST bullet and same barrel lengths. When you feel the need for speed.
Interesting .40 and 357 Sig comparison.
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The smaller expanded diameter and higher velocity of the 357 Sig provided for both deeper penetration and a larger permanent cavity. Both calibers using the same HST bullet and same barrel lengths. When you feel the need for speed.
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Not terribly surprising, the 125gr .355" bullet does have higher sectional density than the 155gr .400" bullet plus it's moving faster. The 155gr XM40HB is listed at 1140 fps, which is on the slow side even for a standard factory .40 S&W whereas the 357 SIG P357SHST1 is listed at 1360 fps, so +220 fps.
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357 Sig appeared to do more damage to the gel as penetration depth increased, like 12-15'' range, at 10:38 that is confirmed.
I like both 40 & 357 Sig and both performed well in that test.
This bullet test merits those beaten clichés typically used to rationalize lesser calibers.
😁
"wouldn't want to get shot by it"
"nobody volunteer to get shot by it"
"better than nothing"
![Image]()
I like both 40 & 357 Sig and both performed well in that test.
This bullet test merits those beaten clichés typically used to rationalize lesser calibers.
😁"wouldn't want to get shot by it"
"nobody volunteer to get shot by it"
"better than nothing"
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3,792 Posts
Not to mention that he also keeps referring to the fractured volume surrounding the permanent cavity as ''the temporary cavity''. Well...it is his first time after all.357 Sig appeared to do more damage to the gel as penetration depth increased, like 12-15'' range, at 10:38 that is confirmed.
I like both 40 & 357 Sig and both performed well in that test.
This bullet test merits those beaten clichés typically used to rationalize lesser calibers.
"wouldn't want to get shot by it"
"nobody volunteer to get shot by it"
"better than nothing"
![Image]()
To AZ Airgunner's credit, he does use what appears to be organically-derived 10% (?) ordnance gelatin (instead of that infernal clear polymer crap*). A nice 'next step' in his progression would be to shear-validate (the BB shot into the block) his gelatin blocks and lay a measurement standard alongside his test block. It iss also noteworthy that he includes recovered diameter and mass numbers at the end of the video. It's a nice first attempt.
*don't get me started
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Unsurprising. A smaller diameter bullet (even expanded) is going to experience less resistance from a gelatinous (or muscular?) medium. Also, if the smaller bullet's design resulted in the petals being too quickly expanded and folded all the way back to the bullet's base, it would reasonably be expected that the final expanded diameter would present a smaller diameter bullet going forward, and present a smaller surface area to cut, tear and crush tissues. Is that what you want to see?
Of course, using some of your previous reasoning, the .357SIG 'wasted' some of its 'energy' by exiting the test medium, so I'd not get too excited about the MV/ME numbers. The larger fractures visible in the gel block?
Also, the gentleman making the video didn't explain whether his 'homemade gel block' matched the protocols established for making and using a properly calibrated 10% organic gel to simulate muscle tissue. However, even if he'd used the specific materials, formula and prep methods for his gel block, he didn't appear to have checked it with a BB calibration shot. How could he known what he was shooting and seeing? He's just shooting a couple different pistol calibers into an unknown condition gel medium without knowing whether it's apples or oranges, or what it means compared to properly conducted testing.
He obviously enjoyed himself, though, which is pretty much all you can expect when it comes to 'backyard ballistic testing'.
On the other hand, if I were - for some weird reason - going to have to use the 'results' of that 'testing' to choose between those 2 loads, I'd quickly choose the 155gr/.40 load. Expansion was what someone might expect and hope to see, even though his t-shirt materials may not have conformed to the normal Heavy Clothing specifications, and the fully expanded bullet didn't exit the block. Of course, we have no idea if the same results might've occurred if 5 shots of each caliber were tested in fresh blocks (to average the results), so who knows if better scientifically conducted testing might lend itself to another choice.
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The cracks in the gelatin record the diameter of the temporary cavity (the "splash" in soft tissues), not the size of the permanent cavity (soft tissues that are physically damaged, i.e, crushed, torn, ruptured).
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I think you could be at least partially correct in your assumption. The test was however a comparison of the two calibers performance in a common media which showed the 357 Sig making a longer larger diameter "cavity" despite the larger expansion of the .40. This was accomplished without the comparative loss of penetration which is why the HST is one of my carry rounds in 357 Sig.
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Agree the results were largely predictable but there seems to be a need for reminders from time to time.
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It is a temporary cavity. Resilient soft tissues are pushed aside by the passing bullet, which then rebound to their original position.
The permanent cavity, the tissue directly contacted and crushed (destroyed) by the bullet, is the only handgun bullet wounding mechanism that's reliable.
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These statements reflect a wholesale lack of understanding of the fluid dynamics involved in tests such as these.
Expansion diameter is just one determinant of cavitation magnitude and maximum depth of penetration. Velocity also plays a significant role since it determines the magnitude of the radial acceleration of tissue away from the bullet's expansion face as it passes through gelatin or soft tissues. Just as it is in error to consider only the singular quantity of kinetic energy to assess the terminal ballistic performance of a bullet when it strikes and passes through a human body, it is also in error to consider expansion diameter while ignoring all other factors that contribute to cavitation.
Expansion diameter is just one determinant of cavitation magnitude and maximum depth of penetration. Velocity also plays a significant role since it determines the magnitude of the radial acceleration of tissue away from the bullet's expansion face as it passes through gelatin or soft tissues. Just as it is in error to consider only the singular quantity of kinetic energy to assess the terminal ballistic performance of a bullet when it strikes and passes through a human body, it is also in error to consider expansion diameter while ignoring all other factors that contribute to cavitation.
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Energy transfer...
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Also a great demonstration of impulse or change in momentum, Δp.
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IMO, the .357Sig HST is a very good choice for the caliber, as are 155gr/165gr Gold Dots, Win Ranger 165gr bonded, in .40...I don't think Speer offers the 155gr Gold Dot any longer.
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I'm not seeing any reason from that video alone to prefer the .357 Sig over the .40 S&W. It looks to me like they both would work in a pinch.
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SD is a changing number as a bullet expands. The number shown assumes zero expansion. Bullet design, always more important imo.
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It's also worth mentioning that ballistic gel is simply an agreed on medium for testing purposes. The human body is such a mishmosh of different densities that it does not realistically simulate the affect on the human body, especially when it comes to wound channels. 357 Sig is an excellent round for law enforcement because of it's penetration values, but most people who use firearms for protection will not be shooting into vehicles or through doors. As most now understand that knock down power is a myth, shoot placement is critical; but along with that is the ability to disable via skeletal destruction and surprisingly cadaver test have shown that the lowly 45ACP and it's likelihood to break bones rather than deflect is incredibly effective. Lethality studies also seem to weigh heavily on penetration, while the old beliefs centered around bullet expansion to reduce over penetration to retain kinetic energy have shown to be less effective than once thought, but it is safer.
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Although I never discussed the merits of ordnance gelatin as a test medium, I think that considerable scientific research has established it as being a valid test medium because it duplicates the acoustic/physical properties of mammalian soft tissues in a repeatable manner. That research has also shown that despite the fact that ordnance gelatin is a homogeneous medium it accurately represents the terminal ballistic behavior of projectiles that passed through heterogeneous living bodies.
Any caliber (9mm, 40S&W, 10mm, 45ACP, etc.) that passes the FBI test protocols also rises to the same level as the 357 SIG. Adequate projectile design is the answer and has largely leveled the playing field amongst all service calibers presently employed by law enforcement.
Present SLV (Survivability, Lethality & Vulnerability) methodologies used by the US military (ORCA, FATEPEN, AIS, etc.) still rely upon some measure of kinetic energy dissipation (usually ΔE15, which is the amount of kinetic energy lost as a projectile passes from 1 centimeter - 15 centimeters depth within a target) to assess and predict potential combatant incapacitation values. I am not aware of any SLV methodologies presently in use by the US military that "weigh heavily on penetration" to assess/predict munitions performance in the field.
Can you provide a link that will shed further light upon what you are describing?
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I know from hunting bigger game, energy dump or energy as a wounding method is a myth. Its shot placement & enough vel & energy to drive the expanding bullet. Why all this talk of gel block fractures, blah, blah is just that, talk. Only diff between a 200# deer & human is the deer isnt as likely to quit the fight/flight as a human. WHy one shot stops on game are pretty much bullet placement.
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Taken from the first article below.
"The single most important factor in effectively wounding a human target is to have penetration to a scientifically valid depth (FBI uses 12” – 18”)".
sofrep.com
In order to incapacitated an individual, so they can't use their 30 seconds bleeding out time to kill you you need to destroy the nervous system with a head shot or disable specific areas of the skeletal system. Since Ballistic gel does replicate the effects and damage to skin and/or bones it is simply a representation of soft tissue, and there are no large blocks of similar soft tissue (a wound track/ cavity retraction in lung tissue will be entirely different than fat or muscle tissue) so ballistic gel is simply as close as they can get. Further the kinetic energy delivered whether it is retained or not is almost irrelevant. If the kinetic energy was enough to incapacitate you Newton's third law says an equally amount of energy would be directed back the shooter as well.
customcollagen.com
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My wife's cousin was an American soldier in Somalia during Operation Restore Hope (1993). Due to their very slight frames the native were often referred to by the American soldiers as "skinnys". When involved with firefights he was astounded how the natives could take numerous 223 hits and continue fighting. When later examining the exit wounds he saw none of the massive tissue damage normally associated with high velocity exit wounds; often the exit wound was no different than the entry wound. The theory was they simply did not have enough internal tissue mass to be incapacitated by the hydrostatic shock.
"The single most important factor in effectively wounding a human target is to have penetration to a scientifically valid depth (FBI uses 12” – 18”)".
The Reasons Why FBI Went to Back to 9mm | The Loadout Room
The FBI has selected Glock Gen 5 handguns in 9mm as their service weapon. There has been much speculation about the reasons for their caliber change.
In order to incapacitated an individual, so they can't use their 30 seconds bleeding out time to kill you you need to destroy the nervous system with a head shot or disable specific areas of the skeletal system. Since Ballistic gel does replicate the effects and damage to skin and/or bones it is simply a representation of soft tissue, and there are no large blocks of similar soft tissue (a wound track/ cavity retraction in lung tissue will be entirely different than fat or muscle tissue) so ballistic gel is simply as close as they can get. Further the kinetic energy delivered whether it is retained or not is almost irrelevant. If the kinetic energy was enough to incapacitate you Newton's third law says an equally amount of energy would be directed back the shooter as well.
Ballistic Gel | Discover Strengths and Limitations of Ballistic Gel at Wholesale Supplier Custom Collagen
Ballistic gel is capable of telling you a variety of information. However, ballistic gel does have its limitations. To learn the strengths and limits of ballistic gel, read our handy guide today. Custom Collagen is your wholesale dealer for ballistic gel and more!
customcollagen.com
An Evidence-Based Approach to Managing Gunshot Wounds in the Emergency Department (Trauma CME) | EB Medicine
Managing patients with gunshot injuries depends on the location of the wounds. This issue outlines best practices for gunshot wounds to the head, neck, chest/abdomen, and extremities
www.ebmedicine.net
My wife's cousin was an American soldier in Somalia during Operation Restore Hope (1993). Due to their very slight frames the native were often referred to by the American soldiers as "skinnys". When involved with firefights he was astounded how the natives could take numerous 223 hits and continue fighting. When later examining the exit wounds he saw none of the massive tissue damage normally associated with high velocity exit wounds; often the exit wound was no different than the entry wound. The theory was they simply did not have enough internal tissue mass to be incapacitated by the hydrostatic shock.
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3,792 Posts
Except that Newton's third law of motion, m₁v₁ = m₂v₂ , which describes the fundamental principle of conservation of momentum, deals strictly with forces and has absolutely nothing to do with energy.
Finally, none of the research that I mentioned in my prior post suggests that ordnance gelatin is a perfect representation of the human body.
Yes, I saw the 2001 war movie Black Hawk Down, too.For one there is this
.Ballistic Gel | Discover Strengths and Limitations of Ballistic Gel at Wholesale Supplier Custom Collagen
Ballistic gel is capable of telling you a variety of information. However, ballistic gel does have its limitations. To learn the strengths and limits of ballistic gel, read our handy guide today. Custom Collagen is your wholesale dealer for ballistic gel and more!
An Evidence-Based Approach to Managing Gunshot Wounds in the Emergency Department (Trauma CME) | EB Medicine
Managing patients with gunshot injuries depends on the location of the wounds. This issue outlines best practices for gunshot wounds to the head, neck, chest/abdomen, and extremitieswww.ebmedicine.net
My wife's cousin was an American soldier in Somalia during Operation Restore Hope (1993). Due to their very slight frames the native were often referred to by the American soldiers as "skinnys". When involved with firefights he was astounded how the skinnys could take numerous 223 hits and continue fighting. When later examining the exit wounds he saw none of the massive tissue damage normally associated with high velocity exit wounds; often the exit wound was no different than the entry wound. The theory was they simply did not have enough internal tissue mass to be incapacitated by the hydrostatic shock.
A quick point of order...the correct term is hydrodynamic shock, or more correctly Shock Hugoniot, which occurs when solid materials undergo plastic deformations under uniaxial compression upon being subjected to strong physical shocks such as bullets striking soft tissues.
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