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Judge Holden

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Discussion starter · #1 · (Edited)
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For a short time back in 2013, the USMC considered adopting the M16A4 PIP program (colloquially M16A5) after experimenting with collapsible stocks on the M16A4 for some time. Upgrades over the original M16A4 considered in the program include a Daniel Defense Omega 12 two piece free floated rail and Vltor A5 stock system that could be installed by a unit armorer without permanently altering the weapon.

Vltor produced a proprietary intermediate length buffer tube and M16 + heavy buffer weight in order to retain the rifle length AR reliability, smooth operation and overall function while utilizing a collapsible stock from the carbine. Sadly, the M16A5 concept was dropped. The USMC adopted the Army M4 instead until the switch to the M27.

But the concept lives on for the musket aficionados like myself. I believe this rifle would have been the ideal 5.56 general purpose combat weapon. The Canadians were onto something with the Colt Canada C7. I own several AR examples. From a lightweight sub 6 lb carbine to a heavy LPVO equipped SPR. My favorite has always been La Longue Carabine. The longbow. The killin’ rifle. She never fails to impress.

The 20 inch AR is a super smooth operator. Recoil is reduced, concussion and muzzle flash is a mere shrug and muzzle rise is exceptionally low. The rifle-length AR is king. Is this an ideal CQB or MOUT weapon? No, but it can do the job just fine with proper technique like short stocking. The rifle length gassed system and barrel offer peak 5.56 performance and does so with the upmost reliability as designed by Mr. Eugene Stoner.

77 grain OTM MOD 1 5.56 from a 20 inch barrel will fragment out to 350-400 yards. This is good. Maximum lethality from the 77 grain OTM cartridge. The weapon isn’t too heavy, which is a plus given the capability. Although a pencil barrel profile would’ve been preferred by me. I may have ADCO turn the barrel down past the gas block sometime in the future.

This is my go-to AR for dedicated combat from 0-600m in the event of alien invasion, zombie apocalypse or hostile communist insurrection. The fixed FSB should be a requirement on a hard use AR. The option of the bayonet and the ruggedness of the fixed front sight post shouldn’t be overlooked. You can turn your rifle into a ****ing spear if need be.

Specifications/ my interpretation:

1.) PSA CHF 20 inch FN barreled upper. Routinely puts 5 rounds of 77 grain match in just under 1 MOA at 100m.
2.) Vltor A5 Stock System
3.) Daniel Defense 12 inch Omega free floated rail (discontinued)
4.) SSA-E trigger
5.) KAC foregrip/ A2 grip for the feels
6.) Trijicon TA31F ACOG RCO w/ RMR type 2 3.25 MOA
7.) Troy rear flip up battle sight
8.) Colt LE6920 lower
9.) NibX BCG
10.) Smith Vortex flash hider
11.) Surefire M600DF WML
 
Yes, the Vltor concept would have been cool. Of course, you know, the Canadians have been doing this for a while. I actually converted my A2 stock lower over to a carbine lower, so anytime the A4 upper wants a ride, it'll be on a carbine lower. It makes more sense, and the rifle gas system can run all day on a carbine lower/buffer. You could go H or even H2, but carbine or H buffers are all I run.

Sadly, the M16 is at the end of its developmental life span. The M4 can do everything it can do, well enough to really relegate the 20" guns to obsolescence. However, 20" guns are just sweethearts to shoot, and max power, range, and accuracy out of the cartridge can only be obtained with the 20" gun.

Awesome discussion piece. My only 20" upper has a set screw front sight block on it. Milled flats into the four sides of the barrel where taper pin holes are now tapped for set screws, and the bottom under the sling mount is also set screwed. It was during the thing, and parts were unavailable. Red located the crap out of it, and it hasn't budged. A dimple and four flats, it's about as mechanically strong as taper pins anyway.
 
Thinking about my next AR, which will be the first one I assemble myself, will most likely get the A5 buffer system. Only parts I've picked up so far are a Faxon gunner profile 18" with rifle gas, and a SA adjustable gas block.
 
Discussion starter · #5 ·
Yes, the Vltor concept would have been cool. Of course, you know, the Canadians have been doing this for a while. I actually converted my A2 stock lower over to a carbine lower, so anytime the A4 upper wants a ride, it'll be on a carbine lower. It makes more sense, and the rifle gas system can run all day on a carbine lower/buffer. You could go H or even H2, but carbine or H buffers are all I run.

Sadly, the M16 is at the end of its developmental life span. The M4 can do everything it can do, well enough to really relegate the 20" guns to obsolescence. However, 20" guns are just sweethearts to shoot, and max power, range, and accuracy out of the cartridge can only be obtained with the 20" gun.

Awesome discussion piece. My only 20" upper has a set screw front sight block on it. Milled flats into the four sides of the barrel where taper pin holes are now tapped for set screws, and the bottom under the sling mount is also set screwed. It was during the thing, and parts were unavailable. Red located the crap out of it, and it hasn't budged. A dimple and four flats, it's about as mechanically strong as taper pins anyway.
Fair point on the M4. Certainly the more practical on paper option. I’m not one to claim the musket is obsolete however. It is mechanically (slightly) more reliable. And you do gain a non-insignificant boost in muzzle velocity which leads to increased terminal performance at range, slightly less bullet drop and wind drift. Is that worth 5.5 inches of extra barrel length and corresponding increased weight? For most, probably not. But, it is worth it to me. Of course, I have a bit of an extreme mindset on the AR. I consider the 18/20 inch rifle length gassed guns to be the gold standard. Anything else is a compromise.

I’m also the guy who is still a big believer in the bayonet. The 20 inch gives me that added length to properly utilize the pig sticker to the best of its ability. This IMO, is the quintessential fighting rifle.
 
View attachment 1127123 View attachment 1127124 View attachment 1127125

For a short while back in 2013, the USMC considered adopting the M16A5 that never was after experimenting with collapsible stocks on the M16A4 for some time. This caught the attention of Vltor who produced an intermediate length buffer tube that accepts a rifle length spring and proprietary heavy buffer system in order to retain the rifle reliability, smoothness and overall function while utilizing a collapsible stock from a carbine. Of course, the M16A5 concept was dropped. The USMC eventually just adopted the M4 like the Army, until they went full bore HK across the board

But the concept stuck with me. I own several AR examples. From a lightweight sub 6 lb carbine to heavy LPVO equipped SPR. My favorite in the bunch is La Longue Carabine. It’s superbly smooth. Recoil is reduced, concussion and muzzle flash is a mere shrug, and muzzle rise is very low. The rifle-length AR 15 is king. Is this an ideal home defense or CQB weapon? Nope. But IMO, this is an ideal general purpose rifle that gets the most out of the 5.56 cartridge and DI system reliability.

77 grain 5.56 from a 20 inch barrel will fragment out to 300 yards. This is good. The weapon isn’t too heavy either which is a plus given the capability.

In essence, this is my ideal AR rifle.

Spec:

1.) PSA CHF 20 inch FN barreled upper. Routinely puts 5 rounds of 77 grain match in just under 1 MOA at 100m.
2.) Vltor A5 Stock System
3.) Daniel Defense 12 inch Omega free floated rail (discontinued)
4.) SSA-E trigger
5.) KAC foregrip/ A2 grip for the feels
6.) Trijicon ACOG RCO w/ RMR
7.) Troy rear flip up battle sight
8.) Colt LE6920 lower
9.) NibX BCG
10.) Vortex flash hider

* bayonet lug for zombies…
What is your lightweight build made up of?
 
Fair point on the M4. Certainly the more practical on paper option. I’m not one to claim the musket is obsolete however. It is mechanically (slightly) more reliable. And you do gain a non-insignificant boost in muzzle velocity which leads to increased terminal performance at range, slightly less bullet drop and wind drift. Is that worth 5.5 inches of extra barrel length and corresponding increased weight? For most, probably not. But, it is worth it to me. Of course, I have a bit of an extreme mindset on the AR. I consider the 18/20 inch rifle length gassed guns to be the gold standard. Anything else is a compromise.

I’m also the guy who is still a big believer in the bayonet. The 20 inch gives me that added length to properly utilize the pig sticker to the best of its ability. This IMO, is the quintessential fighting rifle.
Agreed. Those were the points I was stating, too. Do I believe it's outdated? Absolutely not. Even an M16A1 is still perfectly serviceable. I just think from the DOD standpoint, with more and more MOUT and CQB type stuff happening, that's where and why the M4 shines. I don't know if these Sig guns were the right choice. Time will tell. It seems like Sig getting the pork barrel spending, to me.

The 20" gun gets you several hundred FPS more, translating to that reduced drift and drop you mentioned. It's how the gun was originally designed, so a properly gassed rifle length system, with modern magazines pretty much can't fail, firing good brass 5.56/.223. I love the musket, too. 😂 I refer to it that way at the range and people be like 😳 ??
 
Having carried he M16A1 and A2 in he military, I'm not a fan. I also can't envision myself in a situation where I would need a bayonet.
What didn't you like?
 
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Discussion starter · #11 · (Edited)
What is your lightweight build made up of?
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BCM RECCE 16 inch CHF enhanced lightweight mid length upper (pencil profile w/ flutes)

  • Trijicon TA33 5.56 green donut reticle (7.7 oz)
  • 13 inch MCMR MLOK rail (8.2 oz)
  • BCM MOD 0 compensator
  • Surefire X300 Turbo (not pictured)

PSA MFT lower

  • Geissele SD-3G trigger
  • MFT minimalist stock
  • MFT engage grip v2

Weighs 5.76 lbs empty w/o mag/optic.
 
Discussion starter · #12 · (Edited)
Having carried he M16A1 and A2 in he military, I'm not a fan. I also can't envision myself in a situation where I would need a bayonet.
The M16A1 is a stud. Free float the rail. Put a 3x TA33 on the carry handle for a good heads up shooting style. Lightweight rifle. 6.5 lbs empty.

Bayonet:

1.) Crowd control

2.) CQB. Stick the surprise ninja guy attempting to grab rifle when rounding a corner/ cutting the pie until you can properly orient the muzzle to shoot.

Weapon retention is a thing.
 
Not a thing wrong with 20” rifles. In fact, for my purposes now that I’m retired, they’re the best option. A 6920 with Trij LPVO was my last duty carbine, but I myself prefer rifles. Here’s my 20” A4:
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Being 6’5” with knuckle dragging arms it‘s basically is a carbine for me anyway.
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
Not a thing wrong with 20” rifles. In fact, for my purposes now that I’m retired, they’re the best option. A 6920 with Trij LPVO was my last duty carbine, but I myself prefer rifles. Here’s my 20” A4:
View attachment 1127218

Being 6’5” with knuckle dragging arms it‘s basically is a carbine for me anyway.
That magpul fixed stock is neat. I’m assuming that is an A1 length stock?
 
Discussion starter · #17 ·
This is concept is similar to the rifle I budget built. My brother in law gave me a pre-ban 1/9 20" Bushmaster HB upper. I had an Anderson stripped lower that I built using Aero internal parts. I used Magpul furniture and a SAW foregrip. Scope is a Vortex 1-8.

View attachment 1127213
I’d be tempted to chop and thread that barrel to 18. Probably not cost effective however.
 
Discussion starter · #18 ·
Agreed. Those were the points I was stating, too. Do I believe it's outdated? Absolutely not. Even an M16A1 is still perfectly serviceable. I just think from the DOD standpoint, with more and more MOUT and CQB type stuff happening, that's where and why the M4 shines. I don't know if these Sig guns were the right choice. Time will tell. It seems like Sig getting the pork barrel spending, to me.

The 20" gun gets you several hundred FPS more, translating to that reduced drift and drop you mentioned. It's how the gun was originally designed, so a properly gassed rifle length system, with modern magazines pretty much can't fail, firing good brass 5.56/.223. I love the musket, too. 😂 I refer to it that way at the range and people be like 😳 ??
This. This guy gets it. There’s a reason Mr. Stoner designed the AR around a 20 inch barrel with a rifle length gas system.
 
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