[walkinguf61]

For those who don’t know. A manta in Law Enforcement circles is the 21 feet rule. If a person with a knife is less than 21 feet away, he can run up and stab a police officer before the police officer can draw and fire his sidearm.

It’s a reason why some officers when confronting someone will have their gun drawn but hiding it behind their leg , hat , or another object.

A study from ALERRT is emphasizing that 21 feet should be seen as a minimum and not a safe distance. That the manta might be to change it to 32 feet.

https://alerrt.org/r/15

 

[amd65]

"Mantra"

 

[KennyFSU]

The woke crowd would say "Persontra."

 

[Dragoon44]

21 feet is not a safe distance.

Had a guy with a bayonet charge me from about that distance and he damn near nailed me. If he had not gone down from the first shot he would have nailed me.

 

[ranger1968]

Its never , ever, been a " rule", it has always been simply an example of why maintaining a safe distance whenever possible is a preferred tactic; you can explain it all day, but alot of people learn and retain better through actually witnessing and/ or doing things, so back in the day Dennis Tueller came up with this scenario as a drill to be run with students; it's an eye opener, and always has been, but it was never intended as a hard and fast measure, as in , " At 21 feet you're in grave danger but at 22 feet you are good "....

I run several versions of the drill in classes; one where the student has a holstered blue gun and the " attacker" has a Sharpie, one live fire where the student is standing and a life-sized mannequin that is suspended from a cable armed with a ( plastic) knife comes at them at a running speed ( the mannequin is pulled by a cable that is being held person that is behind the line who takes off running on a signal the student cannot see) and that same drill, only with the student on their back on the ground, holstered ( simulating a trip and fall while being advanced upon..... It is always a good learning moment, and it definitely gives the students a perspective on how quickly things happen in real life, thereby opening the door to learning tactics which can mitigate risk ( like maintaining better distance, use of expedient barriers, lateral movement, etc...)

 

[steveksux]

I always thought it was implying 21 feet might seem safe but your odds are actually at best 50/50. 21 feet is a “tie”. I prefer to win.

I took it as a warning that 21 feet was actually the minimum point at which you had a reasonable chance to survive, not a safe zone.

Randy


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[warbow150]

We get too hung up on linear distance and chronological time. It’ll be part of the investigation, but at the moment we won’t know the precise distance separating us or length of time involved. Slapping an arbitrary number on it and calling it a “rule” is an example of a training tool that’s gone too far.

 

[Deployment Solu]

It is called the Tuler Drill after Dennis Tuler(SP) who is and or was an LA Trainer with a Martial Arts background. It was never enough at 21FT....some of these criminals are fast!!! I am glad to see the safe min distance expanded....

 

[GPalmer]

...
A study from ALERRT is emphasizing that 21 feet should be seen as a minimum and not a safe distance. That the manta might be to change it to 32 feet.
...

That'll play out well in today's political environment...

 

[walkinguf61]

The “ rule” part of the 21 feet started as a “rule” when guys would shoot the man with the knife and explain: “ He was within 21 feet.” It was meant to say you need at least 21 to have a reaction time but morphed into something else.
And some people forget it’s 21 feet for reaction time from a HOLSTERED gun. And if a guy rushes you within that distance, other techniques might work better. The problem is most academies don’t teach any effective knife disarm techniques or empty hand defenses against weapons .

 

[walkinguf61]

That'll play out well in today's political environment...

The tide is starting to turn. The NYPD going to standard triggers. I think CPD will change its policy on paperwork and drawing the gun when Lightfoot is out. This study might help by stating that a drawn gun on a person with a knife allows the officer more time to decide to shoot or not shoot, and more time for the perpetrator to surrender.

 

[fastbolt]

Some folks ought to look for the video clips of interviews with Dennis Tueller talking about the drill he developed for an academy class he was teaching back in his LE days. I remember listening to him discuss it during a couple breaks in different classes he was teaching (somebody always asks him about it).

A couple things I remember him mentioning was how that 21 foot distance was the result of "averaging" some timed distances when he had pairs of his cadets run drills (starting back-to-back, with one running and one shooting at a target). He said the ages and varying physical conditions of the cadets factored into the different times and distances he'd recorded among the drills of the cadets, which is why he ended up "averaging" the results he observed among them. The other thing he mentioned was that if he repeated the drill today, he'd probably use a longer distance, since some people could move faster and farther in the same period of time.

It surprised him when the drill he devised for his academy class, in response to a cadet's question one day, ended up outside the academy, and it basically took on a life of its own that he hadn't intended, eventually becoming interpreted as a "rule".

 

[PattonWasRight]

A good reason to practice at 10 yards

Draw, fire three quick shots 9 ring or better

 

[GPalmer]

The tide is starting to turn. The NYPD going to standard triggers. I think CPD will change its policy on paperwork and drawing the gun when Lightfoot is out. This study might help by stating that a drawn gun on a person with a knife allows the officer more time to decide to shoot or not shoot, and more time for the perpetrator to surrender.

I hope you're right but I have seen more and more "community reactions" that ignore reality.

 

[Lt. Donn]

For those who don’t know. A manta in Law Enforcement circles is the 21 feet rule. If a person with a knife is less than 21 feet away, he can run up and stab a police officer before the police officer can draw and fire his sidearm.

It’s a reason why some officers when confronting someone will have their gun drawn but hiding it behind their leg , hat , or another object.

A study from ALERRT is emphasizing that 21 feet should be seen as a minimum and not a safe distance. That the manta might be to change it to 32 feet.

https://alerrt.org/r/15

When I was fortunate enough to break bread with Mr Tueller, he voiced the same concern... problem is: the jurors who may likely judge your actions, have no clue just how deadly and swiftly a person armed with a knife can kill you

 

[GPalmer]

When I was fortunate enough to break bread with Mr Tueller, he voiced the same concern... problem is: the jurors who may likely judge your actions, have no clue just how deadly and swiftly a person armed with a knife can kill you

Where is the We're not worthy icon for this one?

 

[Bren]

For those who don’t know. A manta in Law Enforcement circles is the 21 feet rule. If a person with a knife is less than 21 feet away, he can run up and stab a police officer before the police officer can draw and fire his sidearm.

It’s a reason why some officers when confronting someone will have their gun drawn but hiding it behind their leg , hat , or another object.

A study from ALERRT is emphasizing that 21 feet should be seen as a minimum and not a safe distance. That the manta might be to change it to 32 feet.

https://alerrt.org/r/15

21 feet was always the minimum. 21 feet is the distance where you get stabbed every time, even against guys who aren't very athletic. It was never the distance where you were safe.

A member of my family shot a guy with a knife about 19 years ago. There were 3 police officers with guns drawn and pointed at the guy. Two had 10mm and one had a .40. All three of them said they were backing up, trying to keep a 21-foot distance from the guy. When he ran, they all three fired, hit him 8 of 10 shots, including 2 between the eyes that made his skull deflate like a leaky basketball and one in the center of his chest. When he started running at them, they backed as they fired and he crossed the line where they had been standing before he hit the ground.

 

[CAcop]

Tueller taught one of my classes and he told the story. It's basically a drill that became a study with results that were 1.5 seconds to draw and 21 feet to run in that time.

The rule came about because people wanted something simple to remember but the details matter.

 

[Sharkey]

That'll play out well in today's political environment...

It is the ultimate social distance. PPCT classes sucked except for one - Spontaneous Knife defense.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

 

[nitesit(+ an e)]

21 feet was always the minimum. 21 feet is the distance where you get stabbed every time, even against guys who aren't very athletic. It was never the distance where you were safe.

A member of my family shot a guy with a knife about 19 years ago. There were 3 police officers with guns drawn and pointed at the guy. Two had 10mm and one had a .40. All three of them said they were backing up, trying to keep a 21-foot distance from the guy. When he ran, they all three fired, hit him 8 of 10 shots, including 2 between the eyes that made his skull deflate like a leaky basketball and one in the center of his chest. When he started running at them, they backed as they fired and he crossed the line where they had been standing before he hit the ground.

Holy Crap.