[Wererat]

Reading firearm stuff randomly and read another piece about “limp wristing” (and nearly all writers put that in quotes as I’ve done) and am compelled to write this.

Maybe the quotes mean everyone knows this but if so nobody seems to write it; there is no such thing.

Many decades ago I was taught in fencing that grip is the last three fingers and control in the pointer and thumb; later in kobudo the same thing, and in Filipino stick too (largo mano at least).

With firearms, both to control recoil and let the slide work, the idea is to limit rotation on the pivot point of the web of the thumb. The same approach applies; not trying to clench the wrist but apply force with those grip fingers, particularly the ring finger.

Without being any sort of pistol expert, my own experience is that tension in any muscle not needed for the desired action is a detriment. One late night and slightly assisted perspective. Enjoy, trash, or comment at will.

 

[dmross11]

A few years back, I took a class from Langdon....excellent instruction, BTW, and he addressed this. Many schools of thought, but his was to grip with both hands TIGHT....so that the whites of your knuckles are showing. Also, thumbs forward to lock the wrist. FWIW, but the best thing to do is practice, practice, practice......don't just throw lead downrange, but drills to ID your weaknesses......DOT torture, comes to mind

 

[ActanonVerba70]

Glock Armorers Manual lists "shooting with an unlocked wrist" as one of the probable causes for the following observed problems:

• Failure to extract
• Failure to eject or erratic ejection (including stove pipes)
• Failure to feed
• Slide fails to lock open on last round
• Failure to fire

I noticed that this concept has been discussed a few times. Here is a pretty good discussion of the many:

https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/limp-wristing.1650293/

IMHO - of course muscle control (especially lack of) is part of this concept. Could there be a better term? Maybe as more than one thing impacts "an unlocked wrist" (i.e. muscle control).

Physics and slide velocity also come into play here. (another aspect of the discussion)

Just some things to ponder early in the morning...…

 

[2740dmx]

Whether flying aircraft, riding motorcycles, shooting archery or even sitting here typing...
Repetition of the task, done "correctly" is one of the best methods of mastering a skill set.
While shooting, there are so many variables that play into the equation; grip, stance, breathing, focal point, trigger control....
We can sling lead downrange all year long and not grow/develop as shooters... or we can slow things down, develop drills, use a shot timer, have someone video our stance/firing sequence, etc..
Shooting is such a multifaceted "sport".... and you'll never "master" any one aspect of shooting, no matter how good you get... always room for growth!

 

[harold63]

Maybe the quotes mean everyone knows this but if so nobody seems to write it; there is no such thing.

It's just a term that covers any kind of poor grip allowing excessive frame movement. 'Limp grip' may even be a better term but isn't as much fun to say. It's fairly common knowledge when your grip is tight enough for reliable cycling, your wrist will automatically be tighter, but to say limp wrist doesn't exist isn't accurate, especially when shooting more powerful semi auto calibers.

 

[Klatch]

Perfect practice makes perfect.

 

[TheDreadnought]

It’s just an excuse to cover Glock unreliability unless you hold it just right.

None of the firearms I own will fail just from the way I hold it. I’ve tried.

Maybe it’s a grip-angle thing. Idk. The bottom line is that it’s a design flaw in Glocks they refuse to fix. More “Glock Perfection.”

 

[Scouse]

My Glock 19 Gen4, I purchased, just as soon as they came on the market, fitted with the then-new dual captivated mainspring. A disaster!
Brass in the face, erratic extraction, I sent registered letters to Gaston, phone calls to the US factory. I have no idea how my Cell phone survived.
I found out later Austria gave instruction to Smyrna. Give this man anything to shut him up!
I received a nice gesture, half a dozen G17 bran new Mags. I used those in IDPA matches, my G19s pinched my hand on rapid reloads.
The 5th new mainspring, fixed it.
My lesson, never buy a new model of anything when it first comes out!

 

[Zerodefect]

It’s just an excuse to cover Glock unreliability unless you hold it just right.

None of the firearms I own will fail just from the way I hold it. I’ve tried.

Maybe it’s a grip-angle thing. Idk. The bottom line is that it’s a design flaw in Glocks they refuse to fix. More “Glock Perfection.”

You can hold the Glock/1911/2011/Cz75 properly, or you can choose a lesser pistol that likes your crappy limp handshake.

Your choice.

Also note, major calibers handle limp wristing better.

 

[Dr_fast]

Reading firearm stuff randomly and read another piece about “limp wristing” (and nearly all writers put that in quotes as I’ve done) and am compelled to write this.

Maybe the quotes mean everyone knows this but if so nobody seems to write it; there is no such thing.

Many decades ago I was taught in fencing that grip is the last three fingers and control in the pointer and thumb; later in kobudo the same thing, and in Filipino stick too (largo mano at least).

With firearms, both to control recoil and let the slide work, the idea is to limit rotation on the pivot point of the web of the thumb. The same approach applies; not trying to clench the wrist but apply force with those grip fingers, particularly the ring finger.

Without being any sort of pistol expert, my own experience is that tension in any muscle not needed for the desired action is a detriment. One late night and slightly assisted perspective. Enjoy, trash, or comment at will.

As a fellow martial artist maybe this will help...
My primary style is GoJu Ryu and the reason I bring that up is because we do a kata called Sanchin. If you were familiar I would need to say no more. But for those who aren’t familiar it is basically an exercise on relaxing and only tensioning for maximum speed in transitions of moves but during actual striking and blocking contact there is a tensioning of all muscles necessary. I think this might be what you’re referring to.

so as I have taken up my latest Kobudo, GunFu, i’ve been trying to train myself to have only the tension necessary to stabilize the weapon and then as a raise it and put it on target I get very firm tension into the necessary muscles to provide a firm grip and not“ Limp wrist“ and then go back to the more relaxed, so to speak, posture when the gun is not directly on target.

 

[Dr_fast]

It’s just an excuse to cover Glock unreliability unless you hold it just right.

None of the firearms I own will fail just from the way I hold it. I’ve tried.

Maybe it’s a grip-angle thing. Idk. The bottom line is that it’s a design flaw in Glocks they refuse to fix. More “Glock Perfection.”

As I understand it any plastic handled pistol is prone to this at one level or another. It’s a physics thing.

 

[MeatGrinder]

I've seen many new shooters limp wrist and jam a gun.
Just limit the muzzle jump. It doesn't take brute strength.

 

[Schrag4]

It’s just an excuse to cover Glock unreliability unless you hold it just right.

None of the firearms I own will fail just from the way I hold it. I’ve tried.

Maybe it’s a grip-angle thing. Idk. The bottom line is that it’s a design flaw in Glocks they refuse to fix. More “Glock Perfection.”

Oh, boy, now you’ve done it!

The “design flaw” as you put it is simply a very light frame. If there’s little resistance provided by the shooter, the recoil spring will simply push the frame back through space with the slide as it recoils. What guns do you have that will fully cycle if there’s NO resistance on the frame? My guess is only ones with heavy steel frames.

 

[sciolist]

You're basically right. Just need to experiment to get the right balance of force/tension for your situation. And you also need to figure out where to put the force.

 

[Wererat]

relaxing and only tensioning for maximum speed in transitions of moves but during actual striking and blocking contact there is a tensioning of all muscles necessary. I think this might be what you’re referring to.

so as I have taken up my latest Kobudo, GunFu, i’ve been trying to train myself to have only the tension necessary to stabilize the weapon and then as a raise it and put it on target I get very firm tension into the necessary muscles to provide a firm grip and not“ Limp wrist“ and then go back to the more relaxed, so to speak, posture when the gun is not directly on target.

Now writing after a bit of sleep, so hopefully this is clearer; the above is the concept. All I want to do is control the recoil, not strangle the poor thing to death. A handgun's recoil pivots off the axis of the web of the shooter's hand, and is countered by forces applied to the front of the grip of the frame by the lower fingers. Someone said physics; so think rotational moment and so the further from the axis the less force required, which is why the "X" guns (43x, etc.) feel easier to control. The wrist is up near the axis, so it's not itself helping.

The muscle in question flexor digitorum superficialis which controls the gripping force of the four fingers. Conversely, I want the pointer finger to be without tension except the few pounds applied to execute the trigger. Any other tension is applying unneeded force to the firearm which might be consistent if one practices exactly that way all the time and never gets tired, distracted, wanting to change any other aspect of the presentation or some other human thing. Most likely it manifests as randomness. You don't hammer a nail consistently by choking the hammer like a rabid dog and swinging from the shoulder, do you?

Regarding poly frames: This concept has nothing to do with the composition of the frame or Glocks per se (works the same on my Cougar), but this is Glocktalk, so Dr. Fast ... here it's not gun-fu but glock-jutsu.

Also Dr. mentioned the sanchin kata and breathing, but that's not news to anyone who's heard BASS, right (or as apparently they teach it now, the "R" in BRASS).

 

[familyman357]

All I know is that I’ve never been able to induce a “limp wrist” failure in any Glock pistol that ran reliably, even when holding it so loose as to almost drop it, nor have any of my Glock pistols that were less than highly reliable fixed by a deathgrip.

 

[mmcbeat]

Just me but I have always felt that a self defense gun must be very forgiving. Pull the trigger with a weak grip and it needs to go bang.

 

[Schrag4]

All I know is that I’ve never been able to induce a “limp wrist” failure in any Glock pistol that ran reliably, even when holding it so loose as to almost drop it, nor have any of my Glock pistols that were less than highly reliable fixed by a deathgrip.

My brother has a Gen4 G19 that could be consistently limp wristed to produce failures to eject or feed. Our other brother was getting those about every 2nd or 3rd round, until we told him to grip it tighter and lean into it. That fixed the issue.

 

[ithaca_deerslayer]

A handgun's recoil pivots off the axis of the web of the shooter's hand

I think that is a faulty assumption.

There are many variations in movement, which all relates to limp wristing.

 

[Green Dragoon]

Just me but I have always felt that a self defense gun must be very forgiving. Pull the trigger with a weak grip and it needs to go bang.

I agree. What if my hand/s are injured? What if there is blood on them (blood is very slippery)? What if the person from whom I'm defending is right on top of me?

When I get a new pistol, I'll try very hard to create a failure with limp wristing. I'll especially do this with my weak hand.

The only gun I was ever able to create a failure with was a brand new HK P30L. It didn't come as a surprise because they have a pretty stout "recoil management" system. Plus, I was using my powder puff handloads. I added two more grains of powder to my reloads and voila.

Side note on Glocks: IMHO, people shouldn't base their opinions on them from using range/practice ammo. If one uses premium defense ammo or a stouter handload, Glocks are as forgiving as any other pistol I feel. It eliminates BTF too.