[Nutty Professor 188]

The officers in my department have been trying for years to allow us to wear external body armor with load bearing equipment capability.

We have argued that the weight distribution (~23 pounds, including the armor panels) is better distributed on a vest versus the belt. And they keep adding stuff to our personal loadout.

The armor is bloody hot. After directing traffic for hours in the summer sun where the air temp is near 100 degrees, the humidity is over 75%, and the asphalt is close to 130 degrees they tell us "stay hydrated." Good advice but it does not prevent hyperthermia. I have a Cool Cop and it helps but the only way to shed core temperature is to get the armor off. Not quick to doff or don when there's belt, keepers, radio wires, shirt, etc. If you have the stuff off and a hot call goes out it puts you in a bind. If my guys are out in the heat for a while I have them go to the station and call out 10-6 (busy) and take all of the gear off to cool down. It pisses off admin to have them off the line. With a LBV just unzip (on un velcro) and set the whole assembly down. Emergency? All back on in one package. Code 3 to go.

The same arguments above for female officers. Just to go pee is a major undertaking for them.

Plus, a lot of the LBV I have seen have drag handles. A nice feature for an officer rescue.

My department says the LBV makes us look too "militaristic" and "unapproachable" so they have repeatedly nixed our request. They won't even talk it about it in union contract negotiations.

The only thing they have tried is a silly looking external vest that holds the armor panels and looks like a big thick uniform shirt. It has the badge, name tag, fake buttons and all and goes over a collared shirt. It allows the armor to be removed but doesn't solve any of the don/doff or weight distribution issues. And, in my opinion, it looks stupid as hell.

Any thoughts or comments? Has anybody out there had similar issues and, if so, how were they overcome? Is my admin right? Does this kind of gear make us look too scary?

 

[GasTiresOil]

We have fought the same battle and lost. We have the shirt vest but I feel same about them as you do. Until our top guy goes, we are stuck with what we have.
Could be worse for us though, if he had his way we would be in class B which consists of metal badge and name tag with clarino gear and striped slacks. Our class C is embroidered badge and name with web gear and cargos.
Good luck with the fight.

 

[ghstface38]

We just won this exact fight. We utilized the scientific studies that have recently been completed and spoke directly to HR about the issue.

If all else fails, once guys start filing OJIs for back issues they might take a look at the LBV again.


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[Nutty Professor 188]

We have fought the same battle and lost. We have the shirt vest but I feel same about them as you do. Until our top guy goes, we are stuck with what we have.
Could be worse for us though, if he had his way we would be in class B which consists of metal badge and name tag with clarino gear and striped slacks. Our class C is embroidered badge and name with web gear and cargos.
Good luck with the fight.

Thanks. We are sort of lucky, we too have went to the embroidered class C shirts. We also are allowed a summer uniform (cargo type shorts with a polo type shirt) from April until November. Our admin hates the summer uniform and they steadily whittle away at the time frame we can wear them.

 

[Nutty Professor 188]

We just won this exact fight. We utilized the scientific studies that have recently been completed and spoke directly to HR about the issue.

If all else fails, once guys start filing OJIs for back issues they might take a look at the LBV again.


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Congratulations on the win!
We have had several officers make claims about lower back injuries and the city fights it the whole way.
Is there any way you could provide links or sources to the studies you used and also what types of LBV you chose?

 

[ghstface38]

I didn’t have time to dig too deep, but here’s what I found real quick.


https://www.bluestonesafety.com/images/pdfs/Load-Bearing_Vest_Summary_and_Implementation_Article.pdf


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[GasTiresOil]

Basically, as long as your admin is capable of hearing and understanding a message and the accompanying studies to back up your claim you should be successful.
My admin closed their eyes, put their hands over their ears and yelled incoherently.

 

[collim1]

I would hardly consider the uniform shirt style carriers to be “stupid looking”. If they fit properly and the officer is reasonably fit they can look quite sharp. Difficult to tell apart from a normal class A uniform from a few feet away.

 

[Nutty Professor 188]

I would hardly consider the uniform shirt style carriers to be “stupid looking”. If they fit properly and the officer is reasonably fit they can look quite sharp. Difficult to tell apart from a normal class A uniform from a few feet away.

I did not mean to offend, especially in a post where I was asking for help.

We have tested them. Our motor guys tried them, a few officers tried them for T&E, and our community service officers use them currently. They are all in good shape and you are correct, it's almost indistinguishable a short distance away. But I don't think they look good up close, even when well fitted. The officers that have tested them say they feel hotter than the concealable armor. And it doesn't solve the problem of weight distribution or ease of don/doff.

I do, sincerely, appreciate and respect your input though. Thank you.

 

[Bren]

Any thoughts or comments? Has anybody out there had similar issues and, if so, how were they overcome? Is my admin right? Does this kind of gear make us look too scary?

Yes, does this guy work for your department?

Have they given you any trouble about the headbands with your uniforms? Is red allowed, or does it have to be a matching color? Also, can you just buy your headband, or does it have to be cut from the clothing of someone you are avenging?

 

[Nutty Professor 188]

Yes, does this guy work for your department?

Have they given you any trouble about the headbands with your uniforms? Is red allowed, or does it have to be a matching color? Also, can you just buy your headband, or does it have to be cut from the clothing of someone you are avenging?

No, they haven't given us too much static about headbands but they did put it policy that we couldn't wear ears on a necklace anymore.

 

[collim1]

I did not mean to offend, especially in a post where I was asking for help.

We have tested them. Our motor guys tried them, a few officers tried them for T&E, and our community service officers use them currently. They are all in good shape and you are correct, it's almost indistinguishable a short distance away. But I don't think they look good up close, even when well fitted. The officers that have tested them say they feel hotter than the concealable armor. And it doesn't solve the problem of weight distribution or ease of don/doff.

I do, sincerely, appreciate and respect your input though. Thank you.

I am certainly not offended by any means.

I tried the uniform style external carrier when my department first approved them a few years ago. I found it to be very underwhelming.

Some of my co-workers acted like it was instantly life changing and “like not I’m not even wearing body armor”. I personally didn’t find it significantly more comfortable. The only benefit I found was I could take it off in the office and cool down while I wrote a report. But in reality that wasn’t a quick easy process and I just didn’t do it.

The biggest problem I have seen is that the carriers hat look the best and look the most like a real class A shirt just done have the durability to justify their cost. I can’t afford to replace an $80 carrier every 3-6 months to keep it sharp looking.

I just wear a normal class A and concealed body armor.

 

[COLOSHOOTR]

I'd suggest trying for a compromise with the brass. In the current climate, that includes a clear media bias against Law Enforcement, you are going to be hard pressed to win the molle outer carrier battle outside of special units like SWAT. They make carriers that look like uniform tops in the upper portion but have molle/pals compatible webbing on the lower front for load bearing capacity. We really didn't have to fight too hard with the brass on the look because of the uniform appearance

The sticking point we had before approval was actually the load bearing capability. As one of our command officers said, "you know that if we approve this without clearly defined limits on what could be carried someone would be walking around with a vest full of magazines and some damn flashbangs if they can get ahold of them." Unfortunately anyone who has been around at a mid or large sized agency for any amount of time knows that is true because there is always a handful that just have to be that guy/gal. Because of that our policy allows for no weapons the be carried on the vest (except for a taser) and no ammunition or other munitions on the carrier. Everything else is allowed on the vest.

I'm not sure how much we could help as we are only started winning these battles, many that have raged on for years, now because our current Chief is awesome. Just this year has seen the approval of load bearing outer carriers, RDS optics for handguns, new magnified patrol optics and patrol utility uniforms just to mention the important ones. I could put you in touch with the Sgt that spearheaded the push at my agency if you want to send me official contact information.

This is one of the carriers we have approved.
https://angelarmor.com/ruc/

 

[steveksux]

How much gear so you guys with the uniform like outer carriers transfer of the belt?

Radio, cuffs, ??? Gun and mags stay in the belt, what else is left that's very heavy? Pepper spray, taser, TQ? I was thinking about asking about that, but not sure there's much weight savings on the belt.

With external vest, seems like you'd sweat through the uniform shirt. Internal, the undershirt takes all the sweat, best protects the shirt.

Do you guys wear modified uniform shirt with some sort of cool max panel where the best converts it, or standard uniform shirt?

Randy

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[blueiron]

Uniforms run about a generation behind the military and policing.

• In WW2, Army infantry had to wear ties into combat [3rd Army]. Cops followed this trend until the 60s. Although some agencies stuck with ties for years afterwards.
• Utility uniforms didn't hit policing until the junior Vietnam vets hit executive ranks of policing. Then we got pants with cargo pockets, got rid of wool trousers/shirts, and could stop wearing helmets/headgear on patrol.
• The next evolution was with the nylon belt and gear. Much of the spit shined or clarino crap started to fade away.
• External vest carriers are the latest thing. In another decade or so, LBVs will become more pervasive.

It all takes time and the people in policing are conservative by nature. No motors around here wear leather jackets, gun belts, or riding boots anymore - but the look was classic. Now, they frankly look like SWAT junior varsity with nylon everything, POLICE in large letters on their backs, and full face helmets.

 

[COLOSHOOTR]

How much gear so you guys with the uniform like outer carriers transfer of the belt?

Radio, cuffs, ??? Gun and mags stay in the belt, what else is left that's very heavy? Pepper spray, taser, TQ? I was thinking about asking about that, but not sure there's much weight savings on the belt.

With external vest, seems like you'd sweat through the uniform shirt. Internal, the undershirt takes all the sweat, best protects the shirt.

Do you guys wear modified uniform shirt with some sort of cool max panel where the best converts it, or standard uniform shirt?

Randy

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

A radio, expandable baton, a couple sets of cuffs, OC spray, a flashlight and a taser still account for a significant amount of weight on the belt. Even though the handgun and ammunition must stay on the belt the ability to remove the rest still makes a significant difference.

Load bearing vest carriers are a new thing here and I haven't even ordered mine yet but external carriers that looked like a uniform shirt have been authorized for a few years now and I do wear one during the summer. There are a few companies that make "combat style" shirts that look like uniform tops in the places the vest doesn't cover but are lightweight moisture wicking fabric in the areas covered by the vest. I don't really believe there is really any way to be truly comfortable in armor. I've worn everything from concealed armor under a uniform shirt to outer shirt carriers to tactical external armor carriers on the job and there is one constant for all, they all are hot and relatively uncomfortable. The real benefit to external armor carriers is to get some of the stuff off your belt to help reduce future back and hip problems and to be able to remove or easily vent when you are in a safe environment to do so. None of the systems are drastically more comfortable than the others but it is absolutely amazing to stop by the station to complete your paper and be able to easily remove the vest while you are there or even just to pop open the side for a minute or two to vent while in the car. The combat style shirts fo make a huge difference in comparison to a standard uniform shirt under the carrier though.

 

[Lt. Donn]

The officers in my department have been trying for years to allow us to wear external body armor with load bearing equipment capability.

We have argued that the weight distribution (~23 pounds, including the armor panels) is better distributed on a vest versus the belt. And they keep adding stuff to our personal loadout.

The armor is bloody hot. After directing traffic for hours in the summer sun where the air temp is near 100 degrees, the humidity is over 75%, and the asphalt is close to 130 degrees they tell us "stay hydrated." Good advice but it does not prevent hyperthermia. I have a Cool Cop and it helps but the only way to shed core temperature is to get the armor off. Not quick to doff or don when there's belt, keepers, radio wires, shirt, etc. If you have the stuff off and a hot call goes out it puts you in a bind. If my guys are out in the heat for a while I have them go to the station and call out 10-6 (busy) and take all of the gear off to cool down. It pisses off admin to have them off the line. With a LBV just unzip (on un velcro) and set the whole assembly down. Emergency? All back on in one package. Code 3 to go.

The same arguments above for female officers. Just to go pee is a major undertaking for them.

Plus, a lot of the LBV I have seen have drag handles. A nice feature for an officer rescue.

My department says the LBV makes us look too "militaristic" and "unapproachable" so they have repeatedly nixed our request. They won't even talk it about it in union contract negotiations.

The only thing they have tried is a silly looking external vest that holds the armor panels and looks like a big thick uniform shirt. It has the badge, name tag, fake buttons and all and goes over a collared shirt. It allows the armor to be removed but doesn't solve any of the don/doff or weight distribution issues. And, in my opinion, it looks stupid as hell.

Any thoughts or comments? Has anybody out there had similar issues and, if so, how were they overcome? Is my admin right? Does this kind of gear make us look too scary?

I think perhaps your Chief/Sheriff is missing an opportunity for a PR "Win"...first I would try to determine exactly what the types and styles of equipment are currently available...then do some leg-work and locate a vendor with prices
( see if perhaps the items are on State Contract,,,ask your purchasing agent)...then I would approach management and encourage a public awareness campaign centered around minimizing officer fatigue, back injuries etc...perhaps get creative and invite a local media person to wear a full uniform with the vest underneath the shirt and do a ride-along directing traffic etc for a typical day-shift...then report on their experience. If the "brass" wants to get in front of this project, it Can be a win-win...but mostly they are happy with the status quo...that is why I applaud any agencies which mandate ALL the brass pull a shift one day each month...let them experience firsthand

 

[PennsWoods]

The patrol guys in my dept. are just waiting for the old folks to retire and take their office worker uniform styles with them.

 

[pgg00]

We have been using LBVs for a couple of years now. It has made a big difference on our backs. Only thing left on my belt now is gun and taser. Everything else is on the vest.


The medical / injury side is the way to pursue this. Officers with back injuries from the belt need to sue the city and the administration directly for their injuries. When personal liability comes into play it can change someone's tune

 

[OLY-M4gery]

I wear an exterior vest
Over a Blauer shirt designed to be worn under an exterior vest
Over a 211b Tactical mesh vest (makes a small gap between me and that armor, meaning sweat, heat, etc go from me to the air gap and out.) Makes an exterior vest way more comfortable.
Over a T-shirt

Olight is has a weaponlight sale coming up in 3 days. Valkyrie pro 1500 lumen handgun light for $85.