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855? Xm whut?

You mean my grandfathers ammo? How quaint. Get a .308 or 6.5 AR10 if you like. My 5.56 OTM's and .300blk AR15's are overkill with proper ammo selection. And even if the rest of my TEOTWAWKI supply of ammo is 55gn ball, it'll still get the job done.

The only problem I have with 5.56, it barely moves a steel plate at 300+ yards, so I can't hardly tell if I hit it or not without walking on a soon to be live range for waay too long to paint that steel. Where my 6.5 makes every hanging plate jump and ring giving instant positive feedback.

Youtube used to have vids of Iraqi's getting lit up by 5.56. The new ammo works fine. Combat is 100 yards at average.
 
I've never heard of the 240 NIC but the 6.5 Grendel is a better cartridge than the 5.56 at longer ranges and so would be a 6.8 SPC necked down to 6mm and driving a 110 grain bullet.

I disagree that the 223 "kind of sucks" but it's over-rated and underpowered especially when fired from shorter barrels.
A .240 NIC case is the same base diameter as a 7.62x39mm but it is 45mm long. Or you can think of it as a 6mm PPC in a slightly longer case. It is a real PITA to make the brass from 6.5x54mm MS.
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
855? Xm whut?

You mean my grandfathers ammo?

Youtube used to have vids of Iraqi's getting lit up by 5.56. The new ammo works fine. Combat is 100 yards at average.
They were shooting M855. Since 2010 there's been some M855A1 in service but they're still blasting up the millions of M855 rounds that've been the mainstay for decades.
 
I don't think the 5.56 sucks. Maybe with certain penetrator rounds, but not with ammunition specifically designed to kill people. it leaves an impressive wound channel in human tissue. Is it like a grenade going off in your body like AR fanboys proclaim? No, but a wound channel from federal 62 grain XM556FBIT3 or MK 318 Mod 0 is nothing to sneeze at. If you like 7.62x39, that's fine. Unless you're using .22lr all I care about if you're in a firefight with me on my side is if you can shoot and if you'll keep your nerve. If you can do those things I'll be glad to fight by your side regardless of your caliber choice. (Unless it's .22lr) You shoot what you shoot, I'll shoot what I shoot. I will be posting a thread trying to find the best defensive ammo for the 5.56, and would appreciate input from anyone. Thank you.
 
.30 caliber cartridges were invented to kill men. The .223 was invented to kill varmints... of course the 5.56 is a slightly higher pressure .223.
The 30-06 and similar cartridges were designed to kill men at 600+ yards with a bullet that does not expand or tumble. Kind of overkill for a defensive gun don't you think?
 
Not the best for a defense oriented firearm unless specific ammo is used that conforms with the capabilities of specific barrel specs.
Well duh. That’s like saying a Range Rover sucks in winters unless you swap off the summer tires.

Your post is about “defense” but then you talk about long range shots... are we talking defending borders of the country? Or do you just have a reaaaaaaaly big house? :D
 
no but it kills trolls.
we are making 556 bigger and heavier currently and have something called the OTP now.
had a tie to theSF community. current round being used. i believe it was the 77 or 72 grn. they were dropping off dead in iraq and the med dr. were asking if they used a 308 on them. because of the damadge.
556 is plenty big.
there is a new mag supposed to be coming out. magpul with some new follower. for the big heavy round.it will protect your feed ramps, with the newer round. keeping them from getting hen pecked.
 
I'm old. I can lug my AR and 210 rounds of ammunition a long ways. And run with it and hide with it and jump and crawl with it. With an M1 and an equal amount of ammo I'm stationary 'cause moving it is beyond me.

In sheer shoot 'em out who wouldn't want the most power and range we can get? I'd rather have a howitzer and air support if it comes to that. The AR platform and the 5.56 round in any flavor is a great compromise. Not perfect. Perfect does not exist. In the Urban environment where I live and play, and where I'll be if the SHTF and I *need* a gun against possibly multiple attackers in an Urban environment I'll take speed and mobility and a little less sheer power. Love guns in 7.62 but running and gunning with them (and feeding them) is too much for Old People.

What a Troll.

VooDoo
 
I've felt that 5.56 was an unimpressive round also. But it's also what I'm most likely to find. So that's why I bought a Tavor X95 as my SHTF rifle.

I use 60 grain soft point ammo as my defensive ammo. It has impressive results in gel at least.
I've never been that impressed with the round, in fact don't own anything in that caliber....always thought it was a bit strange even having read the arguments in favor of it. My SHTF rifle is a SCAR 17S.
 
Discussion starter · #33 ·
Well duh. That’s like saying a Range Rover sucks in winters unless you swap off the summer tires.

Your post is about “defense” but then you talk about long range shots... are we talking defending borders of the country? Or do you just have a reaaaaaaaly big house? :D
I'm just providing a few counter-points to the so called advantages of the AR platform chambered in 5.56. For a practical LE/civilian "defensive" application, my guess is that the AR carbine would most likely be utilized as either a trunk gun or as a HD weapon. The 12 guage is probably better for the home situation, while the trunk gun, given many different possible scenarios, is probably best using ammunition that has some effective terminal ballistics and barrier penetration. Which in the 5.56 means high end ammo and a barrel that is suited for proper velocities for said ammo.
I'm old. I can lug my AR and 210 rounds of ammunition a long ways. And run with it and hide with it and jump and crawl with it. With an M1 and an equal amount of ammo I'm stationary 'cause moving it is beyond me.

In sheer shoot 'em out who wouldn't want the most power and range we can get? I'd rather have a howitzer and air support if it comes to that. The AR platform and the 5.56 round in any flavor is a great compromise. Not perfect. Perfect does not exist. In the Urban environment where I live and play, and where I'll be if the SHTF and I *need* a gun against possibly multiple attackers in an Urban environment I'll take speed and mobility and a little less sheer power. Love guns in 7.62 but running and gunning with them (and feeding them) is too much for Old People.

What a Troll.

VooDoo
If I were bashing the AR and 5.56 without any give, fine print or reasoning then yes I would be a troll. However, I carried one in The Big Suck and shot thousands of rounds. I coached Marines on it's use and competed with it at Stone Bay. So I'm used to it and shoot it well.

Sure, it works most of the time. It also doesn't work sometimes. It is unpredictable (more so than heavier calibers), it loses velocity and therefore effectiveness quickly. It's prone to deviation by wind. It's most common and economic ammunition options are either great at penetration or great at fragmentation, but only with the expensive ammo does it do both "well."

Like 9mm, the user should know that there are serious implications for using the "wrong" ammo in a given likely encounter.
 
LOL, the M855A1 negates all of your complaints. Proven lethality out past 600 meters, high accuracy out past 600 meters, and optimized for shorter barrels. With the M855 the Taliban would often stand up and dare for US soldiers to hit them at 400 meters. Talking to a SF Operator who was one of the first troops to arrive in Afghanistan with the new M855A1, he said, "They quickly stopped doing that (standing up past 400 meters). We were dropping them as quickly as they stood up." BTW, they were carrying custom configured M4A1s with 10.5" barrels.
 
Oh nooos, hopefully someone won't sic the police on me for my post. I am still not answering my door. If Inwas hunting hog or deer, I might choose bigger but for dropping 2 legged creatures inside 100 yards or so
It is perfectly adequate


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
the 5.56mm is an intermediate cartridge, and serves its POU well.... I like my 75gr Gold Dot SP's and 77gr IMI OTM's..... but for the OP, maybe you would feel more comfprtable with a .308 platform to satisfy your concerns.

But in the end, heavy 5.56 will serve well in most domestic or preferrably sporting and recreational situations.

Seems like a little bit more homework is needed.....
 
Discussion starter · #37 ·
LOL, the M855A1 negates all of your complaints. Proven lethality out past 600 meters, high accuracy out past 600 meters, and optimized for shorter barrels. With the M855 the Taliban would often stand up and dare for US soldiers to hit them at 400 meters. Talking to a SF Operator who was one of the first troops to arrive in Afghanistan with the new M855A1, he said, "They quickly stopped doing that (standing up past 400 meters). We were dropping them as quickly as they stood up." BTW, they were carrying custom configured M4A1s with 10.5" barrels.
Yes I mentioned M855A1 earlier. It's a good round...better than M855. But like the M855, would be far better out of a 1:8 or 1:9 twist. There's a problem too- it's not for sale.
 
556 is just part of the sissification of America. I bet half of AR owners have never even fired a M1 Garand.

And the trend for the next generation is to double down on mouse calibers like 17, 4.6, 5.7, etc.
I've fired many,many rounds from M1 Garand rifles. I'm not a fan. I know, blasphemy, right?! I do, however
enjoy the M14. It was (and is, IMO) one of the best battle rifles ever.

As for sissyfication of our culture?Nah. Not really. I do agree that there are WAY too many snowflakes, and somehow they are reproducing; but we live in the age of more tried and true warriors than in many, many years. Lots of these fine young fighters are real shooters. Not just draftees trying to survive a deployment, but professional soldiers, sailors, airmen, & marines who study their craft and set about becoming real heart breakers & life takers.

The AR15/M16/M4 is not the quintessential battle implement many would have everyone believe. Neither is it a "Mattel toy" only fit for squirrels and prairie dogs. What it is, is squarely in the middle of those two extremes. I carried a 20" M16 rifle in service, and although it required a bit more TLC than I thought a combat arm should to keep running, keep it running we did. Things in AR land have only gotten better since the 1980s, and I would easily trust my 16" M4 configured carbines, or my 20" rifles with the safety of my family.

I don't like running 5.56 in an SBR, because I feel they are past the point of diminishing returns. But, to be fair, I don't like a really short .308 either, for different reasons.

M855 is next to useless to me as a civilian defense round. XM193 is a good, inexpensive trainer, & honestly not a terrible defensive choice. A good soft point or hollow point 5.56/.223 hunting round is gtg for home defense, & any of the bonded jhp loads is an excellent all around/patrol carbine ammo.

I have very limited experience with the 77 grain choices, but they are accurate, and have a good track record.

Pick a round that has a proven track record, diligently test it in your rifle, & practice practice practice.

If you put rounds on target efficiently, the bad guy won't give a Tinker's dam if the rounds "ONLY" weigh 55 grains.

As for long range effectiveness, military use is obviously much different than civilian defensive use.
Yes, although accurate, the 5.56 is less than optimal at extreme range (thus the implementation of the heavier otm stuff). Civilian defensive rifle use past 125-150 yards is seriously treading into the WROL/TEOTWAWKI arena, and as such, rounds on target are rounds on target, and 5.56/.223 will ruin a day pretty good, I suppose.

Be safe, & Happy Halloween!
 
In one engagement, a two-man special forces team reported 75 kills with 77 rounds. (Mk 262)

Sounds pretty lethal to me.

For a long time I pretty much felt the same way as far as stopping reliability was concerned. For that reason I never purchased an AR in 5.56 Caliber. I finally bit the bullet and bought one after seeing an S&W MP 15 that had been run through the performance center. I played with different rounds through its 1X7 twist barrel and being that I reload I tried the 65 grain Sierra Gameking bullet. I spoke with a Sierra Tech who advised me that this bullet changes the 5.56 in its entirety. This bullet drops deer with authority and after quite a bit of experimenting settled on 25 grains of Tac which gave me excellent groups at 100 yards. Found that Bill Wilson of Wilson Combat swears by this bullet and loads it in 5.56 which he sells. Other than Wilson Combat I know of no company that loads this bullet in factory ammo so it is pretty much a handloading proposition. I can tell you that "performance wise" it really enhances the 5.56.
 
The 5.56 is far better with a 20 inch barrel than the M-4's 16 inch barrel. It puts the ammo further down range and is known to be very lethal. The M-4 is for closer encounters. Best at out to 400 yds. My preference is the M-14. I trained with that weapon many moons ago. Yet, they gave me an M-16 (upgraded). Our only training with that was some steel barrels at 50 yds. Some penetrated, some bounced off. It looked like a toy from Mattel. We did a lot of damage with that weapon. But the AK-47 was better.
 
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