[John Biltz]

S&W Model 59 in 1971 is I think the first. I don't think a gun designed with a three round burst really fits as a Wonder 9 so I'm ruling out the VP 70. If the VP 70 is included then you have to include the Uzi and it wins.

 

[wjv]

>> that doesn't require manipulation of safety or hammer to fire the first shot.

BS

The earliest I remember were the S&W 39/59 (as others have mentioned). The 39/59 were the first semi-reliable double stacked 9mms. But even they sometimes needed tweaking.

Break-in periods with frequent jams and mis-feeds were often the norm. Had to let a gun wear-in a bit before it became reliable.

 

[Handy]

S&W Model 59 in 1971 is I think the first. I don't think a gun designed with a three round burst really fits as a Wonder 9 so I'm ruling out the VP 70. If the VP 70 is included then you have to include the Uzi and it wins.

That's the VP70M, which was a semiauto pistol when the stock is off. The VP70Z was semiauto only.

No safety, DAO, 18 round mag. An Uzi is SAO and is carried with a safety on, and is not a pistol.

>> that doesn't require manipulation of safety or hammer to fire the first shot.

BS

BS? If you throw that element out, then "Wondernine" wasn't something new at all. Double column pistol magazines go back to the 19th century.

 

[Handy]

The earliest I remember were the S&W 39/59 (as others have mentioned). The 39/59 were the first semi-reliable double stacked 9mms. But even they sometimes needed tweaking.

How are BHPs, and C96s not reliable?



General comment: Being reliable with JHPs was not something most autos were specifically built for until the late 1970s. The SIG P6 (P225), despite being introduced in the late '70s, won't feed hollow points any better than a hump ramped BHP or S&W 59. HK, FN, S&W and Sig revised existing feed ramps later to allow hollow points. When police in the US first started carrying 9mm in the '70s, it was ball. Certain designs, like the Beretta 92 feeds in a way that that the feed ramp isn't necessary, so they were always reliable with JHP.

 

[John Biltz]

That's the VP70M, which was a semiauto pistol when the stock is off. The VP70Z was semiauto only.

No safety, DAO, 18 round mag. An Uzi is SAO and is carried with a safety on, and is not a pistol.


BS? If you throw that element out, then "Wondernine" wasn't something new at all. Double column pistol magazines go back to the 19th century.

As I remember, the 3 round burst one came first and was the initial gun and that was in 1970. I don't know if the non burst one came out before or after the 59. Maybe it did maybe it did not. I don't think they did the non burst one until they got a contract with another country that did not want the burst feature. Could be wrong about that.

 

[JDD7]

My first wonder nine was a S&W 669 I bought at an estate auction. Ended up selling it to an old timer somewhere along the way. Now I'm an old timer and wish I had it back. Not to carry but just for collection. :cop:

 

[ironhead7544]

The MAB PA-15 was only made in a small quantity because of a law passed on high cap mags in France. IIRC, only about 500. Nice pistol, really.

I think the Browning High Power was the first real "Wondernine".

 

[ithaca_deerslayer]

I think the Browning High Power was the first real "Wondernine".

Strictly speaking, I agree. But the term wasn't used until the 9mm double stacks started to become more prevalent in the American market

 

[MinervaDoe]

S&W Model 59 in 1971 is I think the first. I don't think a gun designed with a three round burst really fits as a Wonder 9 so I'm ruling out the VP 70. If the VP 70 is included then you have to include the Uzi and it wins.

But, the VP70Z was a civilian version which fired in a standard semi-auto mode.

 

[barth]

Strictly speaking, I agree. But the term wasn't used until the 9mm double stacks started to become more prevalent in the American market

For me, the term Wondernine loosely refered to 9mm semiautomatics replacing revolvers within America Law Enforcement. The obvious example being Glock.

 

[Handy]

As I remember, the 3 round burst one came first and was the initial gun and that was in 1970. I don't know if the non burst one came out before or after the 59. Maybe it did maybe it did not. I don't think they did the non burst one until they got a contract with another country that did not want the burst feature. Could be wrong about that.

The burst version only fired single shots when used as a pistol. Only by attaching the stock would it act any different than any other pistol.

 

[John Biltz]

The burst version only fired single shots when used as a pistol. Only by attaching the stock would it act any different than any other pistol.

Still, a machine pistol in my mind. Not saying you have to agree with me, its a pretty subjective subject. But since we were talking about the first Wondernine. The first VP 70 which was made in 1970 only with a 3 round burst capability. In 71 we have the S&W 59 come out. And then I think the semi-auto only VP 70. I think those are the facts people can interpret them how they want. But I think a three round burst feature invalidates it as a Wondernine as much as being SA invalidates a BHP.

 

[Handy]

Still, a machine pistol in my mind. Not saying you have to agree with me, its a pretty subjective subject. But since we were talking about the first Wondernine. The first VP 70 which was made in 1970 only with a 3 round burst capability. In 71 we have the S&W 59 come out. And then I think the semi-auto only VP 70. I think those are the facts people can interpret them how they want. But I think a three round burst feature invalidates it as a Wondernine as much as being SA invalidates a BHP.

I'm not sure if you don't understand or not, but this statement is false. The VP70M is selective fire (semi or 3 round burst) when the stock is attached, and is semiauto only when the stock is off. (See photo for selector switch.) So I don't follow your "only with 3 round burst", when burst is an option in one configuration and unavailable in the other. If I handed you a VP70M pistol without the stock, it would solely function as a semiauto pistol.

The stock serves the same function as a drop-in autosear to convert a semiauto firearm to fire automatically. It is an optional contraption, not the only reason for the existence of a weapon named "People's Pistol" rather than "People's Machinegun".

 

[zeleny]

The MAB PA-15 was only made in a small quantity because of a law passed on high cap mags in France. IIRC, only about 500. Nice pistol, really.

No, no, and yes. According to the book by Bastié and Casanova, MAB produced 90,000 of the P15 pistols between 1964 and 1982. Subsequently, its successors MABCO and MAM made nearly 30,000 more. And there never was “a law passed on high cap mags in France”. Nice pistol, indeed.

 

[azdave]

I still have copies of G&A around from the mid 80's that discuss the whole "wondernine" thing... both the term and the guns. It would seem the tests that gave us the M9 brought out the concept, coupled then with the new fangled plastic gun from Austria around 86-87 coming in.
By this time, the second gen S&W 459 and 659 were around, and functioned a whole lot better than the 59 of the 70's.
The Sig 226, Smith 459 and Beretta 92F were making a big splash in the US in the first half of the 80's and commonly called the "wondernines," and then the Glock 17 continued it into the later 80's.

Anyone else remember the flood of Tangfolio, FIE's or Excam imports (CZ copies) that also rode the wave?? How about the Llama 82 or Star M30? Or how about the long awaited intro of the Ruger P85??
All of these added to the whole phenomenon that Dave Arnold and Jan Libourel wrote about constantly in the rags of that era.

 

[Nunya Business]

Yeah, I already explained why that list is wrong to include the MAB.

What is your level of qualification to define the term?

 

[Handy]

By the late '80s nearly everybody had a hicap DA. Astra, Llama, Browning, Bernadelli, Colt, AMT, Sphinx, Springfield, Mauser, FEG, Korth, CZ-99. Only a few companies eschewed one or the feature, like Benelli and Mab.

 

[Handy]

What is your level of qualification to define the term?

I'm going by the definition offered on Wikipedia that references the guy who coined it. It also fits with the specifications for the XM9 trials that spawned many of these guns.

As I pointed out, if Mabs are Wondernines, then so are Broomhandle C96 9mms and BHPs. It seems weird to coin a phrase to talk about a "trend", if that trend includes guns designed in the 19th century.

So my qualification: I can read.

How would you like to define the term? Any 9mm? I would be more inclined to call a single stack P7 a "Wondernine" than a BHP, but I think the combination of those XM9 features make more sense.

 

[Nunya Business]

The stock serves the same function as a drop-in autosear to convert a semiauto firearm to fire automatically. It is an optional contraption, not the only reason for the existence of a weapon named "People's Pistol" rather than "People's Machinegun".

How did that work?

 

[Nunya Business]

How would you like to define the term? Any 9mm?

I'm not sure how I would define the term. This Thread is the first time I've heard that a safety disqualifies a gun as a "Wonder 9"

I would say it was the high capacity 9mm pistols in production when the 9mm began to supplant the 1911 as the semi-automatic handgun of choice.