[mtn_hunter]

Originally posted by mtn_hunter:

Yes, that is illegal just like hunting elk with a barrel shorter than 4" (in Colorado) which you seem to be promoting.

mtn_hunter

Your making assumptions about Kegs that simply aren't true.
Kegs has in past threads stated that he uses a 4.75 inch aftermarket barrel to reach the minimum energy requirement and to comply with state law on barrel length. At least have the common courtesy to ask how one will comply with state law rather than assume that one will be breaking it.


Xmm

Sorry I didn't read all of his posts of this forum :upeyes: Not too much of an assumption either. Read my first post #8 where I first pointed out the barrel requirement in CO after Kegs partially quoted other parts of the regs. I even stated he should have an aftermarket barrel. No response.

No sir.

My G29 has a KKM barrel on it that is 4.45"

Sincerely glad to hear that.

 

[alexanderg23]

I've killed one with a 357, but not because I wanted to. It had been hit by a truck was messed up. It dropped like a sack of potatos.

 

[Kegs]

Razor made a post on his facebook page wherein he mentioned using Hornady Factory loads. If that load punched thru an ELK I wonder what our hotter handloads could do?

I loaded up a 200xtp to 1240ish fps and it punched through 6 water filled milk jugs and kept going. I wish I had put 7 up instead.

Of course this doesn't tell us anything about what it can punch through animal wise, since I did the same thing with my 1700 fps 135 nosler load and it only could punch through 2 milk jugs, yet it was a through and through on a decent sized doe - but the shot was placed properly.

Look, if you put a 5/8 hole (assuming expansion) just lower than and just behind the shoulder of any animal, piercing its lungs and heart, it will not have a chance to run more than 100y or so before it expires - and more than likely, it won't go 25. There is no animal in the lower 48 that has a hide that can resist that kind of force.

Razor said his round penetrated the shoulder of an elk and kept going until it was just on the inside of the other side of the elk's hide. Just behind the shoulder, there isn't anything but rib bones in there, and they won't stop the bullet - the bullet will expand, dumping maximum energy while in there, disrupting tissue and doing fairly major shock to the animal, then exiting the other side, causing 2 holes, making an easy to follow blood trail that will indeed be a short trail.


What matters for the kill is bullet placement - assuming you have a bullet big enough and fast enough to resist the rib bones (IF it hits any) and juicy bits and dump enough energy in there to disrupt tissue to make the important organs fail.

 

[Taterhead]

I loaded up a 200xtp to 1240ish fps and it punched through 6 water filled milk jugs and kept going. I wish I had put 7 up instead.

Of course this doesn't tell us anything about what it can punch through animal wise, since I did the same thing with my 1700 fps 135 nosler load and it only could punch through 2 milk jugs, yet it was a through and through on a decent sized doe - but the shot was placed properly.

Look, if you put a 5/8 hole (assuming expansion) just lower than and just behind the shoulder of any animal, piercing its lungs and heart, it will not have a chance to run more than 100y or so before it expires - and more than likely, it won't go 25. There is no animal in the lower 48 that has a hide that can resist that kind of force.

Razor said his round penetrated the shoulder of an elk and kept going until it was just on the inside of the other side of the elk's hide. Just behind the shoulder, there isn't anything but rib bones in there, and they won't stop the bullet - the bullet will expand, dumping maximum energy while in there, disrupting tissue and doing fairly major shock to the animal, then exiting the other side, causing 2 holes, making an easy to follow blood trail that will indeed be a short trail.


What matters for the kill is bullet placement - assuming you have a bullet big enough and fast enough to resist the rib bones (IF it hits any) and juicy bits and dump enough energy in there to disrupt tissue to make the important organs fail.

I think you pretty well explained how things need to go in order to get that ethical shot. That is true regardless of cartridge. It is much easier in most instances to place a shot with a rifle, so for most people that would mean relegating the 10mm to finishing shot duty.

A lot of hunters that I know only shoot once per year to get a zero on their rifles before the hunt. Those guys should not hunt with a pistol. Just yesterday I was talking to such a once-a-year shooter that hunts elk with a big magnum. I encouraged him to shoot more frequently so that he could firt get good DOPE on his rifle/load and then 1) determine how to range, and then 2) compute a firing solution 3) make a scope or hold adjustment 4) take a clean shot.

His response was that when hunting the adrenaline would preclude him from going through the cadence so what is the use. He would be too excited and just want to send a shot. This was the guy who is known to have dumped two mags toward a deer and missed everything. He then traded in the magnum for a bigger magnum because the first wasnt acurate. THUD!

So I cannot disagree with your assessment that a well-placed hot 10mm load would usually act like you describe. Most shooters probably should not take that shot with a pistol in my opinion.

FWIW, I have shot a 200 grain WFNGC hardcast bullet through 7 gallon jugs and it kept going. It probably would have cleared eight. I want to re-test when I stockpile more jugs. Penetration with that bullet it not a problem.

 

[redbaron007]

"Ethical shooting" means you don't take the shot if you are not absolutely certain (considerations within reason) that the shot you are able to make will be a kill shot. I opened the replies on this (reply #2) thread spelling that out pretty clearly.

No offense......but I disagree. That may be your definition, which is fine; however, you back track in your definition. You use the words 'absolutely certain' then back off with the caveat 'considerations within reason'. There is no way to know the shot you are taking will be 'a kill shot'.

I'm not nitpicking, but illustrating how there is no definition of an 'Ethical Shooting' within the laws. In some states, shooting after dark is illegal; IMHO, those that break this law has committed this unethical shot.

:wavey:

red

 

[cablecutter]

I have seen hunters shoot 40 yards with a rifle at an elk and flanked him. It seemed like he was taking an ethical shot but he wounded the animal. It my be fair to say it wasnt ethical for him to shoot that far. Key is I think is to get out and practice and know your limits and don't go beyond them!


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[Taterhead]

…Key is I think is to get out and practice and know your limits and don't go beyond them!


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

This.

Precisely.

 

[2240]

Got a cow in 2011 with my 10mm. 200 gr Nosler under 9.0 gr of 800-X for about 1200 fps. First shot at about 60 yds and she kind of hunched up. Two more shots and she was down for good. Recovered one bullet under the hide on the far side. 2 lung shots and one high in the body cavity. Most handguns are "under powered" compared to rifle rounds. But if you are a confident shot and can wait for good shot placements it will take an elk down.

 

[Taterhead]

Got a cow in 2011 with my 10mm. 200 gr Nosler under 9.0 gr of 800-X for about 1200 fps. First shot at about 60 yds and she kind of hunched up. Two more shots and she was down for good. Recovered one bullet under the hide on the far side. 2 lung shots and one high in the body cavity. Most handguns are "under powered" compared to rifle rounds. But if you are a confident shot and can wait for good shot placements it will take an elk down.

Good hunting report. I love to eat elk.

You might consider copying this over on the stickied 10mm hunting thread for the sake of posterity.

EDIT: How did that Nosler do? Mushroom? Retained mass? Would you select that bullet again?

 

[2240]

Good hunting report. I love to eat elk.

You might consider copying this over on the stickied 10mm hunting thread for the sake of posterity.

EDIT: How did that Nosler do? Mushroom? Retained mass? Would you select that bullet again?

Perfect mushroom and did not have jacket separation. I think with a bull tag I would go with a 200gr cast. I need to get a moose with the 10mm one day and no doubt I would go cast bullet. BTW, 99.5% of the handgunning that I do, I do it with cast bullets that I cast myself so I have nothing against cast bullets.

 

[FARTHAMMER]

My vote is for yes. But only if you have the marksmanship to do it cleanly. For where I hunt(Eastern Washington) I don't think I've ever got close enough for a pistol. Now my .300 WinMag had no trouble last year at 250 yds

 

[Jitterbug]

There is no way to know the shot you are taking will be 'a kill shot'.

With 50 years hunting experience I have to disagree Red.

If one knows their equipment and limitations then one simply doesn't squeeze off a round unless they know for sure it's a kill shot, it's really the only ethical way to hunt. It's really not that hard to do, but it does require some effort and discipline

I realize many don't hunt this way, like the guy who doesn't touch his rifle but for 2 weeks out of the year, which is just one reason I gave up big game hunting many years ago.

But, if it ain't a kill shot, don't pull the trigger. Simple.

 

[redbaron007]

With 50 years hunting experience I have to disagree Red.

If one knows their equipment and limitations then one simply doesn't squeeze off a round unless they know for sure it's a kill shot, it's really the only ethical way to hunt. It's really not that hard to do, but it does require some effort and discipline

I realize many don't hunt this way, like the guy who doesn't touch his rifle but for 2 weeks out of the year, which is just one reason I gave up big game hunting many years ago.

But, if it ain't a kill shot, don't pull the trigger. Simple.

In theory, you are right.

If ever shot you've taken had been the kill shot; you are the only person I have ever met that has done this. I've been hunting for over 35 years with many folks and groups; I can say that every shot I've taken has not ended up being a kill shot. Do you bow hunt? If so, has every bow shot been a kill shot? If so, you are the greatest! Have you bird hunted? Every shot been a kill shot?


:wavey:

red

 

[SolidBrass]

These also kill Elk very well...

A wolf strides across a pasture near Indian Trails subdivision Sunday as another wanders in the background. Photo courtesy Tim McClure. (Jackson, WY) When three wolves were spotted near homes this week.

http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/article.php?art_id=8128

 

[dryfly]

Someday some year soon I will do either an Elk hunt or a high country Muley hunt...with the bow....thats what I tell myself every year anyways....My 10 will be by my side but ratehr take it with the bow...

 

[Jitterbug]

Yes, in theory and the ideal we should shoot for Red.

It's the less then good shots that have motivated me to be a better hunter/shooter.

Making the perfect shot should be the goal and is the ideal, a hunter needs to know his limitations with any platform/caliber, but more so with a handgun and even more so with a 10mm pistol and be willing to let the shot pass if it's not perfect.

As others have pointed out here many attempt to make up for skill and discipline with a bigger hammer, which isn't always a good solution.

But to answer the OP question, 10mm for Elk is pushing it in my book, a small yearling or 2 year old at close range is one thing, a big 6x6 Bull is another.

 

[CanyonMan]

Yes, in theory and the ideal we should shoot for Red.

It's the less then good shots that have motivated me to be a better hunter/shooter.

Making the perfect shot should be the goal and is the ideal, a hunter needs to know his limitations with any platform/caliber, but more so with a handgun and even more so with a 10mm pistol and be willing to let the shot pass if it's not perfect.

As others have pointed out here many attempt to make up for skill and discipline with a bigger hammer, which isn't always a good solution.

But to answer the OP question, 10mm for Elk is pushing it in my book, a small yearling or 2 year old at close range is one thing, a big 6x6 Bull is another.

+1



Stay safe my friend...







CM

 

[cablecutter]

thread answered with this...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr2IG6t85Jg"]GLOCK Hunting - Big Game with a GLOCK. - Keith Warren - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Taterhead]

I would love know that ammo used. Thanks for posting that cablecutter.

 

[davsco]

pretty sure a lowly .22 has killed most every animal (and certainly people) at some point in time.

BUT, the rule of thumb i have heard for elk is 2000 ft-lbs of energy at the animal. So if it's a 100 yd shot, your cartridge should have 2000 ft-lbs at 100 yds.

10mm (while an awesome handgun cartridge) only has something like 400 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle, so it is nowhere near the recommend energy for elk. for purposes of comparison, a .30-06 has roughly 2000 ft-lbs of energy out to 200 yards.

we owe it to the animals we hunt to harvest them as humanely as absolutely possible.