I will just keep this one the subject of the Ranger hand gun ammo and not address the shotgun and rifle Ranger products.

The Ranger is a whole product line of what Winchester wants to be a LE only loads. Winchester does actively try to keep this ammo to LE and has fired many Distributors that do not restrict the sale of this product line.

Starting at the beginning with the SXT load. It was repackaged Black Talons in a white 20 round box. The bullet was black lubalux with a nickle case. Product numbers often were RA#SXN and RA#SXT depending on when the ammo was made.

Some time around 1996 they did a spec change and the Ranger SXT graduated to a fifty round box. Most had the black lubalux with a brass case. There was also variants that had no lubalux and a nickle case but they are rare and in the hands of collectors. Product numbers RA#SXT

In 1998 the Ranger T-Series started faze in and the SXT was discontinued. It was a total redesign of the SXT so the product number changed. Winchester created a lot of confusion because they still put SXT on the box since the T is a SXT. Product number RA#T

2002 Winchester started production of a higher end Ranger hand gun load. Due to pricing this never really caught on and the Ranger Partition Gold stopped production in 2004. Product number RA#P

In 2004 the Ranger Bonded hit the streets. Since then it has had three generations. The product numbers are all the same. Visually you can see the generations. The first two looked like a run of the mill jhp. The first had a very shallow hp. The second was a noticeably deeper hp. The third looks like a SXT. Product numbers RA#B

The third generation is also available for regular commercial sales under the name of Supreme Elite PDX1.

2008 There was a spec change to the Ranger T-Series. The product number remained the same. Visually the most notable thing is they finally stopped putting SXT on the box.

I will not list everything but as a example I will show some of the other loads.


Ranger products the end in jhp are just standard jhp.
RA9JHP is a 9mm 115gr jhp
RA9JHP+ is a 9mm 115gr +P+ load

Products that end with fmj are just that, fmj
RA9147FMJ is a 9mm 147gr encapsulated fmj
RA9124N is a 9mm 124gr fmj NATO Spec

Products that end in SF are frangible loads.
RA9SF is a 9mm 100gr frangible

Products that end in B are a Bonded load
RA9B is a 147gr bonded jhp
RA9BA is a 124gr +P bonded jhp
RA40B is a 40 cal 80gr jhp
RA40BA is a 40 cal 165gr jhp
RA45GB is a new product 45 230 gr GAP Bonded jhp

Products that end in T are a T-Series round
RA9T is a 9mm 147gr
RA9TA is a 9mm 127gr +P+
RA9124TP is a 9mm 124gr +P

You can also find any Ranger load with a Q and four digit number instead of RA. This is Government contract loads so the spec may be different than the RA loads.
Q4368 is a new load 40 cal 135gr jhp

Z ammo is a catch all. It may be contract over runs, left overs, or cosmetic rejects. Right now there is a lot of first and second generation bonded and first generation Ranger T-Series available under the under the Z ammo.

 

The Ranger is a whole product line of what Winchester wants to be a LE only loads.

Have they ever given a compelling reason as to why this is. Protecting our lives with the best, surely debatable to many, is as important to us as it is to LE.


LJ

 

Have they ever given a compelling reason as to why this is. Protecting our lives with the best, surely debatable to many, is as important to us as it is to LE.


LJ

Federal , Speer and Remington have a LE restricted line also. Many products are available for regular commercial sales. The only three that I can think of that are not supposed to be available commercially is the Ranger T and Federal Tactical Bonded as well as the HST.

 

Federal , Speer and Remington have a LE restricted line also. Many products are available for regular commercial sales. The only three that I can think of that are not supposed to be available commercially is the Ranger T and Federal Tactical Bonded as well as the HST.

Right, but that still doesn't answer my question as to why they only want LE to have them. Have they ever given a reason? They must have a line of reasoning as to why? Have they ever stated one?

 

That was interesting Hotpig, thanks.

 

As far as the common production worker here at Winchester knows. The Talon ammo will never be made available to the public due to a legal agreement between Winchester and a group of families from the Black Talon shootings. If that is official or not I do not know.

Federal has always said it will one day make HST available on the commercial market. Right now they can not keep enough to fill the Government orders. I have not heard anything about their Bonded ammo. My assumption since Winchester released theirs Federal will follow since that market is growing tremendously.

 

As far as the common production worker here at Winchester knows. The Talon ammo will never be made available to the public due to a legal agreement between Winchester and a group of families from the Black Talon shootings. If that is official or not I do not know.

Federal has always said it will one day make HST available on the commercial market. Right now they can not keep enough to fill the Government orders. I have not heard anything about their Bonded ammo. My assumption since Winchester released theirs Federal will follow since that market is growing tremendously.

I see. Thanks for that, Hotpig.



LJ

 

Thanks for the history lesson Hotpig. STICKY.

 

Hotpig, you sir have given me exactly what i was looking for. Thank you

 

I have 400 rounds of the Q4369 180gr .40S&W on hand and it sure is some dirty ammo to shoot.

Interesting to hear that is is a Ranger bullet though, worth holding on to especially for the price I paid.

 

Quite a few years back, the N.Y.P.D was going to adopt the Ranger line. The City Fathers about pulled their hair out, when they discovered the dept., was going to adopt a "version" of the Black Talon. Even though, the bullet was not black.

A ton of it got dumped out on the market, and I bought a case. Can't recall if the case was brass or nickel. Or, what version of the line this era actually was. :dunno: Talons?

Hot Pig?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotpig
The Ranger is a whole product line of what Winchester wants to be a LE only loads.

Have they ever given a compelling reason as to why this is. Protecting our lives with the best, surely debatable to many, is as important to us as it is to LE.

LJ

In regards to Winchester's SXT/T-Series ammo, I'll bet dollars to donuts that it all has to do with the July '93 rampage shooting at 101 California St, in S.F., CA. Gian Luigi Ferri used the then new Black Talon ammo to kill numerous people. Before the end of the year, Winchester had stopped all retail distribution of BT ammo (this action was good enough to placate the anti-gun legislators who were proposing new draconian anti-ammo legislation because of this shooting). Winchester then made the BT SXT ammo a LE-only line of "Ranger" ammunition.

So I'm pretty confident that the reason Winchester keeps the SXT and T-Series ammo a "LE Only" line of ammo is because of some deal they made with the anti-gun legislators.

Those people who criticise Win for selling certain types of ammo LE only (SXT/T-Series specifically) should instead be THANKING THEM for being the martyr that they were for pulling the BT from commercial sales and warding of severely restrictive ammo legislation.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotpig
The Ranger is a whole product line of what Winchester wants to be a LE only loads.



In regards to Winchester's SXT/T-Series ammo, I'll bet dollars to donuts that it all has to do with the July '93 rampage shooting at 101 California St, in S.F., CA. Gian Luigi Ferri used the then new Black Talon ammo to kill numerous people. Before the end of the year, Winchester had stopped all retail distribution of BT ammo (this action was good enough to placate the anti-gun legislators who were proposing new draconian anti-ammo legislation because of this shooting). Winchester then made the BT SXT ammo a LE-only line of "Ranger" ammunition.

So I'm pretty confident that the reason Winchester keeps the SXT and T-Series ammo a "LE Only" line of ammo is because of some deal they made with the anti-gun legislators.

Those people who criticise Win for selling certain types of ammo LE only (SXT/T-Series specifically) should instead be THANKING THEM for being the martyr that they were for pulling the BT from commercial sales and warding of severely restrictive ammo legislation.

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/12/27/u.../1994/12/27/us/lethal-new-ammunition-penetrates-a-federal-ban.html?pagewanted=1

Here's a little piece on the Rhino ammo. I still have some.The inventor actually contacted me, because he was curious about Joe Zambone's Magsafe construction. He learned that Joe and I were close, and he sent me a lot of experimental stuff to test.

I think I received some of the first Rhino ammo to shoot. It wasn't accurate, and was way over pressure. The guy was WAY into himself. I don't think he really knew much about ammunition. He was more caught up in his million dollar Air Force contract, and toodling in the lab.

As for the Black Talon shooting, you may know of one in Cali, but I clearly recall the one that I personally remember causing the flak, was the one mentioned in the article---in NYC. The very reason I think, that N.Y.P.D. to go with the Gold Dot. Super P.C. city, you know.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/12/27/u.../1994/12/27/us/lethal-new-ammunition-penetrates-a-federal-ban.html?pagewanted=1

Here's a little piece on the Rhino ammo. I still have some.The inventor actually contacted me, because he was curious about Joe Zambone's Magsafe construction. He learned that Joe and I were close, and he sent me a lot of experimental stuff to test.

I think I received some of the first Rhino ammo to shoot. It wasn't accurate, and was way over pressure. The guy was WAY into himself. I don't think he really knew much about ammunition. He was more caught up in his million dollar Air Force contract, and toodling in the lab.

As for the Black Talon shooting, you may know of one in Cali, but I clearly recall the one that I personally remember causing the flak, was the one mentioned in the article---in NYC. The very reason I think, that N.Y.P.D. to go with the Gold Dot. Super P.C. city, you know.

:supergrin:

Several weeks ago I was researching Rhino and "Black" Rhino and copied off a few articles on David Keen and his outlandish claims about his ammo!

As for the BT, I do recall the Long Island incident involving Colin Ferguson using BT ammo, but that was in Dec. 1983, whereas, 101 Calif St was in July 1983. It was right after 101 Calif. St that Winchester stopped distribution of BT's because I even phoned Winchester to confirm that they actually did in fact stop dist. of BT to the retail market. And I was told that they did in fact do that. I believe I confirmed with Winchester sometime in Sept. '93, but I don't have access to my notebook at this exact moment.

Update: It was Mon. Nov. 22nd, 1993 that I had contact with Winchester.

 

Quite a few years back, the N.Y.P.D was going to adopt the Ranger line. The City Fathers about pulled their hair out, when they discovered the dept., was going to adopt a "version" of the Black Talon. Even though, the bullet was not black.

A ton of it got dumped out on the market, and I bought a case. Can't recall if the case was brass or nickel. Or, what version of the line this era actually was. :dunno: Talons?

Hot Pig?

It was a nickle case and plain white box if I remember right.

I did not buy any because I was not sure if there was a spec change to the ammo. I try to avoid buying contract ammo unless I just can not get anything else to sale.

 

I have noticed 135 gr HSTs on the shelf at WalMart, but are packaged in the 'Classic' silver boxes and do not have the HST designation on the box, just says '135 gr Jacketed Hollow Point' but the bullet is HST.

BG

 

Yep I saw the 135 gr Feds on the shelf of my local Indianapolis Wal-Mart yesterday when I picked up my two boxes of Fed Classic 180 Gr Range ammo. Price was $23 something a box, brass cased, wish it was 180 gr.