:dunno:

I have an 11-87 premiere trap and love it.

 

I think they are too heavy. Besides, my Benelli M1 Super 90 works every time.

 

I'm happy with mine.

 

The 11-87 Police is built to cycle heavy loads so many people do not want to only be able to practice with slugs or buckshot. It is also not reliable enough to use in a fight as it has to be fired from a solid shoulder in order for the energy of the piston coming back to compact the action spring in the stock so that it can send the breech bolt forward to pick up the next round and lock into battery. In a fight you do not have the option of standing and firing from a solid shoulder. You may have to lay down fire while moving to cover and you may have to fire around and over cover. So if the weapon is not fired from a solid shoulder you will not get the next round into battery. Think of "Limp wristing a 1911".

I am a Factory Certified Law Enforcement Armorer on the 11-87P and my current Certification can be seen on my web site (web site address in sig line) and go to the factory every three years to re-certify. It is a week long class and covers the 870P, 11-87P and the 700P. At the start of class the Instructor always ask how many peoples departments use the 11-87P and I have never seen a hand come up. I bring this up to establish that very few LE Agencies still use this weapon and also to establish that I know the weapon and the operating system. This is important because what I am posting is going to be contradicted by people who will make false claims.

Now someone is going to post in how their 11-87P cycles everthing, even cheap tartget loads. This is not true. Either they do not have an 11-87P or the barrel as been modified. One on forum a guy posted his his stock 11-87P even cycles Winchester Universal. These statements are false. The size of the gas orifices are determined by the length of the barrel and the intended load. The gas orifices in 11-87P barrels are for heavy loads and the 11-87P barrels are not pressure compensated like the sporting models so these barrel will not perform with light loads.

The 11-87 is a great sporting shotgun. It is not a fighting shotgun. However, the R12 that for now is restricted to Remington Defense will soon be available in the LE line and this is going to be the end of the 11-87P. The R12 is a Defense version of the Versa Max in 3" and is extremely reliable.

I have an 11-87P that I built and I love shooting it. However, it lives in my safe and I would never take it to a gun fight. I believe that there is very little being posted about the 11-87P because there are very few out there in use and much of what is posted is false. Also, there is very little known about this weapon by many of the people who have one and it is not a friendly weapon to maintain or repair.

There are many semi-autos out there are Superior the 11-87P and those are the ones that are the subject when fighting semi-autos are mentioned.

 

Also, there is very little known about this weapon by many of the people who have one and it is not a friendly weapon to maintain or repair...

That was my experience with the 11-87 at my agency. Difficult to maintain (they were pool guns, and treated poorly), and very sensitive to infrequent or incorrect maintenance.

Sent from my HTC One X+ using Ohub Campfire mobile app

 

At the start of class the Instructor always ask how many peoples departments use the 11-87P and I have never seen a hand come up. I bring this up to establish that very few LE Agencies still use this weapon and also to establish that I know the weapon and the operating system. This is important because what I am posting is going to be contradicted by people who will make false claims.

Raises hand. Ours are around ten years old and constant issues. Last qualifying session we had two go down. One had a part of the trigger break and not sure what the other one was. We are starting to slowly replace them this year with pumps, another horrible decision. Muscle memory is key and mixing two different operating mechanisms is a mistake.

 

Poor reliability is probably the biggest factor. When you leave reliable, all the other bad stuff seems worse too.

boomhower, why pumps instead of the VersaMax?

 

Poor reliability is probably the biggest factor. When you leave reliable, all the other bad stuff seems worse too.

boomhower, why pumps instead of the VersaMax?

I am sure he will answer but I will proxy and answer for him. Because the shortest Versa Max barrel right now is 22", except for the conversion we both know about. Departments like out of the box ready. When the R12 hits the LE scene the 11-87 will be phased out.

 

I am sure he will answer but I will proxy and answer for him. Because the shortest Versa Max barrel right now is 22", except for the conversion we both know about. Departments like out of the box ready. When the R12 hits the LE scene the 11-87 will be phased out.

When will something like this:



be available, if you know or care to speculate.

 

We have done a few conversions on stock barrels already for folks who could not wait, but my understanding is the the 14" and 18" barrels will be LE available in the 2nd quarter. Temper that with the fact that the 3Gun version was supposed to have been shipped last month and still is not.

That said, our VersaTubes for the 4-7 round guns will be available April 1, yes really.

 

The R12 will hit the LE line up this year for sure but I have no idea when. I tried every way I could to just get the 18.5" rifle sight barrel and could not. I was going to put it on a Versa Max Tactical if I could have gotten one. So, now I wait.

Markco posted in the conversion barrel they came up with and that is viable option for anyone wanting this set up now.

 

The only semi auto shotgun that we see digest low recoil rounds in our shotgun classes is Benelli. AIPPI's post is on the money!

 

The only semi auto shotgun that we see digest low recoil rounds in our shotgun classes is Benelli. AIPPI's post is on the money!

So you have never had a VersaMax or an M3000 in the class. That should change soon.

 

I like mine, runs my buckshot and slugs without a hiccup. Never tired birdshot or anything real light though, never seen a reason or had the urge to so maybe that's why I don't have issues with it

 

We go through approximately 200-220 rounds in a class...160 birdshot, 40 buck and 20 slugs. It's cost prohibitive for most to shoot 200 rounds of buck.

I like mine, runs my buckshot and slugs without a hiccup. Never tired birdshot or anything real light though, never seen a reason or had the urge to so maybe that's why I don't have issues with it

 

When will something like this:



be available, if you know or care to speculate.

I take it that's the R12? I've been considering adding an M4 to the collection for awhile now, but I'd prefer to stick with an American gun. if thats a jack of all trades semi I may have to give it a good look

 

I take it that's the R12?

Yes sir.

Remington R12

 

Well I'm definitely interested. I have pump shotguns but I prefer semis and if that things good I'll buy one. Wouldn't mind having something I could shoot cheap ammo out of.

 

We go through approximately 200-220 rounds in a class...160 birdshot, 40 buck and 20 slugs. It's cost prohibitive for most to shoot 200 rounds of buck.

Only time i really shoot that kinda shotgun is for work and we have to qual with the same stuff we use. If I did shotguns a lot for fun it'd probably be an issue.

Now the whole O/U stuff for clay birds is another story.

 

Well I'm definitely interested. I have pump shotguns but I prefer semis and if that things good I'll buy one. Wouldn't mind having something I could shoot cheap ammo out of.

I generally prefer pump guns but won't deny that semi-automatic shotguns have some definite advantages depending on application.

I've owned/shot Benellis(M1 and M3), a Remington 11-87, a Mossberg 930SPX and a couple of others but none have ever really instilled the confidence of a pump gun. It's probably more in my head than in reality, but it's hard to get around sometimes, even if it doesn't necessarily have a rational basis.

 

Cycling pumps to me is a pain. It's to long a throw. Maybe I just have short arms I don't know but I prefer to just pull the trigger. That's why I bought my 11-87P, and why I may buy this new one.

I still have pump guns just because I feel you can't find anything much more reliable.

 

The 11-87 Police is built to cycle heavy loads so many people do not want to only be able to practice with slugs or buckshot. It is also not reliable enough to use in a fight as it has to be fired from a solid shoulder in order for the energy of the piston coming back to compact the action spring in the stock so that it can send the breech bolt forward to pick up the next round and lock into battery. In a fight you do not have the option of standing and firing from a solid shoulder. You may have to lay down fire while moving to cover and you may have to fire around and over cover. So if the weapon is not fired from a solid shoulder you will not get the next round into battery. Think of "Limp wristing a 1911".

I am a Factory Certified Law Enforcement Armorer on the 11-87P and my current Certification can be seen on my web site (web site address in sig line) and go to the factory every three years to re-certify. It is a week long class and covers the 870P, 11-87P and the 700P. At the start of class the Instructor always ask how many peoples departments use the 11-87P and I have never seen a hand come up. I bring this up to establish that very few LE Agencies still use this weapon and also to establish that I know the weapon and the operating system. This is important because what I am posting is going to be contradicted by people who will make false claims.

Now someone is going to post in how their 11-87P cycles everthing, even cheap tartget loads. This is not true. Either they do not have an 11-87P or the barrel as been modified. One on forum a guy posted his his stock 11-87P even cycles Winchester Universal. These statements are false. The size of the gas orifices are determined by the length of the barrel and the intended load. The gas orifices in 11-87P barrels are for heavy loads and the 11-87P barrels are not pressure compensated like the sporting models so these barrel will not perform with light loads.

The 11-87 is a great sporting shotgun. It is not a fighting shotgun. However, the R12 that for now is restricted to Remington Defense will soon be available in the LE line and this is going to be the end of the 11-87P. The R12 is a Defense version of the Versa Max in 3" and is extremely reliable.

I have an 11-87P that I built and I love shooting it. However, it lives in my safe and I would never take it to a gun fight. I believe that there is very little being posted about the 11-87P because there are very few out there in use and much of what is posted is false. Also, there is very little known about this weapon by many of the people who have one and it is not a friendly weapon to maintain or repair.

There are many semi-autos out there are Superior the 11-87P and those are the ones that are the subject when fighting semi-autos are mentioned.

OK J.D., despite all the wise counsel, and I do believe you, I bought another 11-87P to replace the one I sold without shooting many years ago. Now that I've done the dead so to speak, what advice would you give me (other than selling it) to keep this thing functional and running? I know you no longer sell them, but what did you do to them to make the best of an iffy platform to make it better? How about some full power 00 Buck or slug recommendations? I'm just not that sensitive to recoil. I've owned a 590 Military when they first came out, a pair of Benelli M1 Super 90's, still have a few 870 P's. I just can't help myself, I love the "look" of the 11-87P. You speak, I'll listen and learn....Thanks....Zebulon

 

I hate to be "that guy", but I have a stock 11-87P and have no problems with it. It would be my 3rd choice of fighting shotguns, behind my Benelli and 870 tactical...but that's mostly because of weight and ergos.
I shoot mostly walmart bulk birdshot with some mid velocity handload buck and slugs mixed in. Hasn't had a single malfunction.
Granted, I have only fired 4-500 rounds through it....bit it hasn't choked yet. Had no idea it wasn't supposed to be able to shoot low brass....

 

I have had my 11-87P since the 90's and it is a solid performer. Since it was made to digest a steady diet of buck and slugs it doesn't have the gas compensating system of the sporting 11-87's. It has regular gas ports much like the 1100. I wanted to be able to shoot a wider array of shells in it but did not want to drill out the gas ports like some do because that is permanant.

I found Remington made a "lite load activator" because many were having issues back then with the 3.5" 11-87 shooting the lighter shells. it is basically a spacer ring that goes on the gas ring stack on the magazine tube under the forend. I think it sort of pre-loaded the gas system so the lighter impulse of the lighter shells would unlock the action and let it cycle. I got one and tried it on the 11-87P and it worked perfectly. It lets me shoot all types of shells without a permanaent modification. I had heard of others accomplishing the same thing by adding an extra o ring to the stack right behind the first one.

Now I will reference an earlier post where the person posting obvioulsy has a misunderstanding of how the Remington gas operated shotguns operate even though he is a trained armorer. The situation he talked about "limp wristing" is exactly what happens with the regular recoil operated Benelli shotguns and not the gas operated Remington guns.

Basically autoloading shotguns are locked actions and when the term "gas" or "recoil" is used to describe their actions that is describing how they are unlocked so the rearward inertia of the firing shell can then work the action, kick out the empty and reload to fire again. People think a gas operated gun uses the gas to make the action cycle but that is false, it only unlocks the action. The remington "gas" guns don't have a closed gas system, once it unlocks the bolt it vents out into the gas ports in the handguard.

The Benelli uses the initital recoil impulse of the firing shell to compress the springs in the bolt carrier and unlock the head of the bolt and then the reward inertia of the firing shell takes over. The Benelli's had issues because the gun had to be held firmly so the head of the bolt could be affected by the recoilling shell. If you "limp wristed" the Benelli you were basically letting the gun soak up that inertia and the bolt would not unlock fully. The other thing that affects this is hanging too much crap on the Benelli like lights and shell carriers. It was common knowledge that too much stuff bolted to your M2 would cause problems. If you don't believ me, what did Benelli change on the M4 so it could be sold to the military? They added a gas assisted bolt unlocking feature to it so correct the problem.

Now the Remington 1100 - 11-87 uses gas to unlock the bolt by directing gas through the ports onto the gas rings which then push on the action bars which unlocks the bolt from the barrel extension. It is a positive action that has nothing to do with how the gun is held as it has nothing to do with inertia like the Benelli. Now if the gun is either dirty or you are using shells without the necessary amount of "power" to unlock the bolt and cycle the action then not holding it correctly could cause issues but our issues are because of maintenence or poor ammo choice.

So I typed a lot and just so you know I am not an armorer for anything, just been shooting Remintong gas guns since the 80's and Benelli's since the early 90's.

 

I don't comment on these stock 11-87P's that cycle target loads because they don't exist. That is according the Senior Instructor at the Remington Factory that Certifies Armorers on the 11-87P. With his 45+ years at the factory in Ilion I except his word as gospel. It is also based on my 11-87P which is perfect and will not cycle light loads. I will say simply that if someone has doubled up the barrel seal then yes, but that is not good for the weapon and not what it is designed to do. And if that is the case then it is not being run "Stock" now is it?