A little background……I first trained in Kickboxing, where I competed in tournaments a lot in the 80’s, mixed a little Tae Kwan Do in during the summers when I was home from college. Later transitioned to Wado Ryu, a very traditional Okinawan style, more involved in the art than the competition……big change for me. Then 4 years later, moved and transitioned to JKA Shotokan……….back to a competition style in a big way. Now for past 15 years or so, I practice one of the most traditional styles of Shorin Ryu, Matsubayashi Ryu.….very Okinowan as compared to Shotokan. Extremely self defense oriented, more upright stances, close in striking, 70/30 hands vs feet (no head kicks like TKD……kicks from waist down, high percentage stuff).

Tradition Okinawa karate practices hand in the arm pit. The more “Japanese“ varieties practice hand to hip. All for the same reason……to teach power generation from the ground up. In Shorin Ryu, our more advanced training makes students transition from the robotic hand-to-armpit, to more typical hands forward fighting stance. We essentially never bring hand -to-armpit in kumite/fighting. Once you learn, if you will, the “long form” of push-pull by bringing the hand-to-armpit, you can then generate power with more truncated motions.

On the other hand, the Japanese who practice JKA. do have a tendency to have much larger motions and deeper stances than the Okinawans, and do adhere more to the hand to the hip pull motion much more……but again, they are more tournament focused, and that works for point tournaments, though not self defense.

 

I think you would be hard pressed to find any structured supposedly traditional Okinawan school that hasn’t been heavily reverse-influenced by Japanese Karate-Do somehow, even in Okinawa. You just have to sort it out yourself.

I’ll likely never again agree with the notion that hikite has anything at all to do with power generation, despite making that assertion myself for many years.

In what JKA school did you study Shotokan?

 

So, it sounds like you completely disagree with everything presented in the video?

 

A follow up from Iain. I can understand why this encounters a degree of resistance, because so many people have practiced this methodology with a certain perspective entrenched, but the historical record is clear what the original intent was and why. Everything Iain asserts is backed up by other reputable historians on the subject, as well as science.

 

Studied with Sensei Clark Howell in Shreveport from 1984-1989. Then with Master Mikami in New Orleans 1989-1991.

I think apples and oranges. First of all, Hike-the is a Japanese term , not Okinowan. It is very well accepted that the Japanese, in taking Okinowan karate and moving it from small , intimate dojo’s to large university formats, intentionally took movements and accentuated them, focusing more on perfection of technique rather than application. An Okinowan master is credited with saying,” Sometimes the ugliest karate is the best karate”. Larger motions more accentuated motions allowed Sensei teaching very large Japanese classes to more easily see students performing incorrectly. Where in the Okinowan dojo, being much more intimate in size, this was not a concern. Okinowan dojo’s we’re about individualizations, Japanese dojo’s we’re about mass training.

In moving the karate focus more on tournament style than self defense, it was acceptable , as I stated above, to pronounce hike-te in sparring, as they were point tournaments and points were awarded not only for contact but proper technique. We were urged in JKA competition to use proper technique in ordered for your point to be scored……two simultaneous blows landed, the one with “proper technique” often scored over the other.

The video clearly states that hike-te in fact is not good for genuine fighting, and I agree totally. However, after practicing martial arts simce 1981, I clearly understands its purpose as a “sterile” training technique……it creates muscle/nerve memory, which creates speed, which creates power. I feel it also trains the student on proper hip motion upon striking…..in essence, it simplifies the motion for the beginner. Over time, the experienced karateka no longer needs the larger more pronounced movement, but is able to achieve the same power with a more abbreviated motion.

When I transitioned years ago from JKA to true Okinowan karate it was markedly different in many respects, one of which is the early transition, at green belt(4th kyu), to fighting position in more traditional boxers hands position( with the exception of fists being slightly lowered to create a guard against kicks). Numerous genuine Okinowan styles initially adopted a hands forward fighting posture and still retain that to this day, ours being one. Okinowan karate also utilizes different effective ranges for fighting. The Japanese focus on the long range, where as Okinowans focus on a much closer fighting distance and close in techniques.

We do have specific techniques in which a block then turns to a grab, pulling your opponents arm toward you while simultaneously striking with the other hand…….which appears very much like the structured hike-te position. These however are unique in their own right.

 

... Over time, the experienced karateka no longer needs the larger more pronounced movement, but is able to achieve the same power with a more abbreviated motion.
... Okinowan karate also utilizes different effective ranges for fighting. The Japanese focus on the long range, where as Okinowans focus on a much closer fighting distance and close in techniques.
...

These couple of observations are rather on point, I'd think.

Closer and tighter entanglements can involve some less "linear", more curved lines, performed within tighter distances, as well.

The traditional Japanese do love their larger, longer and more linear movements, until you see the same techniques compressed for distance. It's much the same in many of the Chinese arts, where longer distances can allow longer, more pronounced movement, but shorter distances tighten and compact the same movements into shorter lines and arcs.

Chambering a fist to be use from the hip to the armpit, can favor the slower aggregation of power and synergism of postural balance, bringing some impetus from engaging and locking the back leg, hips and upper torso into a moment's focused delivery ... and it looks pretty ... but is it necessary? How much "power" is enough, and when is speed and a tighter movement, produced within a shorter span, sufficient for the needs of the moment? After all, being able to deliver "sufficient" power within a greatly reduced distance (1"-3" punch?), including done by a leading hand, is a practical and handy technique to master.

For that matter, ditto the delivery of an elbow. The longer wind up and delivery arc of some of the more traditional styles can certainly work, but so too, can the faster and harder-to-defend-against leading elbows of a Muay Thai fighter. Sometimes "enough" power generation and delivery is ... enough ... and if it can be delivered more quickly, with less "delivery" time and movement being necessary? What's not to find useful?

Long (slower) vs. short (faster). The same attributes can be found in some older arts like some of the Dragon and Crane variations. Early training involves long forms, and as training progresses (or students are determined to be ready), may techniques and forms become tighter, less "flowery", more compact and compressed in both time & distance of execution. Tighter, shorter curves can sometimes be mistaken for straight lines, too, to the less trained eyes.

To the perennial question of why the fist is chambered at the hip/armpit, and delivered with maximum distance being involved? I always suspected that some practitioners secretly liked the way they could make their gi's loudly snap.

 

The mention of JKA reminded me of my days at ISU (before being drafted). I only studied it about two swmesters but felt like I learned enough to deliver a punch, block a punch and do an acceptable front kick and side kick, upper and lower block. Still remember sensei John Donahue; great instructor. He’s mentioned here:

About Us « Central Illinois Shotokan Karate

 

Cool, thanks for sharing. I actually started with the AJKA and trained with quite a few of those mentioned in the article.

 

The concept of a pulling hand(“hikite”) is extremely useful for self-defense, providing there is something in it. We see it utilized in MMA and real fights all the time. What’s generally useless is the typical pulling back an empty hand to a position where it can’t be of any use as is still so common in most “traditional” systems today. I would say it’s useless in any application and will develop some really bad habits that take a long time to retrain. I’ve heard about every explanation for its use in training and they just don’t hold any water to me. If they did, you would see professional fighters would utilize them. There honestly just no reason to practice it from a practical self-defense standpoint.

The thing to keep in mind is that what is referenced when talking about Kihon is a relatively new invention and it’s were things really went off the rails IMO. The Okinawans didn’t utilize it in training like the Japanese, because like you stated, their methodology wasn’t intended for large groups(like schools and universities) performing stylized movements in unison. I’ve never came across any Okinawan school that didn’t exhibit heavy Japanese influence. The kata obviously start to make some actual sense, but it’s still been stylized into what’s essentially just a template or map and there are easier ways to gain proficiency for self-defense if that’s the goal.

The term Karate was coined solely for the Japanese. Karate-Do wasn’t initially intended to be a competitive sport as Funakoshi made clear, but that changed very quickly after Nakayama took control and the sport aspect developed and changed repeatedly through multiple stages. Much of Shotokan is stylized Okinawan methods misapplied at longer ranges, but the sparring has produced methodology unique from the parent system.

Mikami was indeed one of the original giants of the JKA here in the states. I think I trained with pretty much all of them back in the day, but retained very few elements from it that I still find useful.

 

Well it looks cool doing katas? KeyYa!

Sent from my SM-T380 using Tapatalk

 

You actually make a very good point even if it wasn’t intentional.

The kata in which the hip chamber and exaggerated movements are most prominent are Kata like the Heian series, which were intended to essentially be schoolchildren’s forms.

They are relatively new and the exaggerated movements are usually considered visually and aesthetically appealing when performed in synchronized large groups.

 

I think the perspective that the original Okinawan forms were extreme close-quarter methods is correct. It seems very clear according to what informative we have available considering Okinawa was absolutely decimated during the war. The bunkai or applications that explain the kata movements to be grappling combined with striking are the only ones that have ever made any sense to me. The Japanese moved everything out to longer range and suddenly those movements aren’t real practical one example being “blocks”.

 

Put very simple for you - "an empty hand is never chambered." Which means the hand you see being chambered has something in it and is pulling your opponent off balance. Next is the statement, " there are no blocks in karate." A block supposes reaction can beat action. It cannot and never will. Do not stand in front of an assailant and try to do the impossible. Move to his side.

 

 

The first half of Patrick McCarthy’s interview being the reason for sharing, which hits the relevant points of the Okinawan origins and development of Japanese karate-do and why it followed the path it did.

 

Hey, let's not forget to talk about 'stop-hits' versus 'blocks', too. How blocks evolve into being nothing of the sort, but pure strikes at higher levels within many of the arts. All the old stuff is becoming new again.

What's cool is that the internet has allowed for the sharing of great knowledge that hardly ever saw the light of day outside of some local geographical area in the latter part of the 20th century. Of course, that means the other stuff can spread at the speed of electrons, too.

 

I'm enjoying this thread's development, BTW.

 

 

Reminds me of when I was young practitioner and I was told that katas sometimes hid more than they revealed, since the katas often offered only a brief snapshot of one moment out of a complete technique hidden within each step of the movement ... and that some fluff and misdirection may have also been inserted among the movements to better hide things from uninvited eyes, or keep the dangerous stuff from the youngsters at first. I heard the same thing about some of the Chinese arts, so it probably wasn't an original idea in older decades.

 

The OP question is this: Why do karate guys chamber their punches at the hip?

I touched on this in another thread, the short answer is simply that they do it because they were taught children's karate. To expound, Anko Itosu was an Okinawan college professor. Most of the recognized Ryus flow from him (he was a student of Sokon ‘Bushi’ Matsumura) . In 1905 he was responsible for getting it karate into the Okianwan school system for it's health benefits. However, he relabeled the movements because he knew that teaching the adult version was dangerous for children who might hurt each other 'goofing around'. The adult version of karate is ripping muscle from the bone, sealing the breath, cavity pressing, pressure points and other brutal outcomes.

One of his students, Gichen Funakoshi, later got karate introduced to mainland Japan. Enter WWII and Japans eventual defeat. A once Imperialistic country was now occupied by foreigners. Karate masters returning to civilian life had to make a living so allied soldiers were taught 'karate'. However, by and large it was the children's version that was taught to the foreigners. In turn, they brought it back to their own countries and they taught what they were taught.

So in effect, chamber a closed fist on the hips is taught as 'chambering a punch' i.e.the hip is the starting point of the punch and it gets the 'hips' into the punch to generate power. It's poppycock. Anyone ever seen this happen in a street fight? In a boxing match? In the UFC? No one walks into a fist fight with their hands on their hips unless their an idiot. It isn't a punch. Think of it in reverse. The hand has grasped part of the attacker (shirt, pants, throat or whatever) and has PULLED the attacker towards your own center of gravity to force them off balance. The 'horse stance' that is taught along with the 'punch' is cute for line drills but the purpose is actually dropping one foot backwards (not to the side) to lower your center of gravity to further facilitate taking the attacker off balance and towards you. Then you can employ the 'high block' which of course is NOT a block but a strike to the face/throat/nose/chest or whatever of the attacker.

So it's not chambering a punch, it's a grab and pull. It was relabeled for children's consumption and that's what was past on to non-Japanese adults who past it on to others in their home countries when they got home.

 

... However, he relabeled the movements because he knew that teaching the adult version was dangerous for children who might hurt each other 'goofing around'. The adult version of karate is ripping muscle from the bone, sealing the breath, cavity pressing, pressure points and other brutal outcomes.
...

Well, it's not like it would be the first time what was essentially a killing art has been watered down and made more palatable and 'civilized', making it safer for the rabble.

 

Dave’s got the gist of the history right, or at least the truly important parts.

I do think combat sports whether it be MMA, Judo, Wrestling, BJJ and even Karate can offer useful training and methods for self-defense if adapted for it and kept in proper content since they do develop and refine specific elements to a high degree. It’s just a matter of finding the right balance.

 

Pick where you want to approach the circle, and then make sure that spot on the circle will actually serve you in the manner you expected. Some folks find it easier to move around within the circle than others. (Don't overlook that in real life, the circle is a sphere, meaning it's not just 2D. )

 

You’ll see most karate schools practicing punches and “blocks” in the air, chambering their fist at their hip on most of their basic techniques or “Kihon”. I was given to numerous reasons why this was done ranging from learning power generation, proper body mechanics, “connections”, full range of motion(this one actually makes some sense from a purely exercise standpoint), but after 5 years and thousands of reps,it just stopped making sense from a self-defense context and I haven’t performed those floor exercises since 1992. For my goals, it turned out I was right to stop, even though I didn’t know why at the time. And not that I haven’t practiced “Hikite “ in it’s true form, we actually see it in MMA all the time and I think it would be accurate to say we see the principle used in most hockey fights.

Traditional karate follows ... tradition. Been done that way for however long the art as been a-going.

Most of this punching from the hip stuff is just training for newbies.. and in sparing you never see it (in fact 90 percent of the 'art' you never see in full contact sparing. All the BS stuff goes away once it becomes real.

 

Yep, kind of like how a lot of newer shooters taking handgun training work hard to learn a 3-step or 4-step draw technique, but then never integrate the separate steps (in whichever version their teachers promote) and go beyond.

I remember when I was trying to help some of our guys who had gone to some outside 'gun fighter' schools in developing their draws, meaning making them smoother and faster. I got a lot of pushback that they'd been trained to adhere to the separate sequential steps. Well, since they could still meet our time constraints and qualify, I didn't try to change anything.

Fast forward to another time, after some of them had returned from yet another advanced outside class, at the same commercial venue, and I heard a different story from one of the guys. The gist was that a couple of the guys had remarked (complained) and joked to the instructors that their agency's range instructors had tried to make them combine the separate steps into a single movement, unlike how they'd been taught in the previous classes.

The kicker was that one of the outside instructors listened to them, and told them that the breaking down of the steps in the draw was for teaching the drawing technique, in steps that were easy for students to learn, but that they were supposed to be able to perform the draw technique in a single, uninterrupted and smooth movement once they'd learned and practiced to perform it properly. They weren't expected to keep breaking down the technique into sequential steps once they'd learned how to do it. The guy who told me this said the guys had felt a little sheepish about it when it had to be explained by the outside instructor, since it was the same thing I'd been trying to tell them (but then shrugged it off when they told me they were being trained by more advanced instructors away from our agency).

The more things change ... etc.

 

Seibukan Shorin-ryu here

Cocking the fist/hand back just gets it ready for another exercise move (PT1) or for Kata's

I don't see anyone doing this while sparring so the fact that it is done during PT1 doesn't mean it's "ingrained" in our minds.

Looks good in the movies though, more motion

 

Here's the first Kata taught in Shorin-ryu

 

Because they are looking for the G19 that should have been in their waist band. 😀😀😀😀😀 Regards to all at GT but never to the A holes that voted the moron who resides in WH. LET'S GO BRANDON

 

Some good material from the ever entertaining John Hackleman…

 

Some good material from the ever entertaining John Hackleman…

...

Let's not forget the instances in the traditional (watered down?) styles where a punch is done, and then the punching hand performs a grasp/grab technique. The method of 'performing' the grasp can vary, of course. Another of those instances where circles within circles may have been deliberately hidden at some point, or have been lost to general knowledge.

 

Also bear in mine that there may come a time in the life of a martial arts practitioner when you may decide what it is you really desire to achieve, and look at ways to pursue that goal. That may, or may not, involve choosing whether to continue pursuing less effective methods.

Sometimes some practitioners may be better off pursuing dancing.

 

I remember thinking when this video came out a few years ago that perhaps he just might be hitting onto something.

Most Asian martial arts aren’t focused solely on developing practical fighting or self-defense skills. Physical health, conditioning, and longevity in the arts are all concerns and that could have very well at least partly figured into why some of the techniques are performed the way they are.

Maintaining muscular balance through full range of motion and joint integrity when performing high repetitions, just like you often do when weightlifting. I think it better to engage in specific separate exercises for that, so as to not encourage bad habits in form.

However, if someone absolutely insisted on karate being their sole form of physical exercise I guess one might argue that it might make sense to do both methods, but I would recommend performing the chambering movements as if it’s merely an exercise and leave the more intense, focused work for when practicing how you would actually punch in a fight. Still, I do think it best to simply avoid it and incorporate better options for the exercise aspect.

 

Not doing the long version, just this: anyone who takes their kata formalities into a live fight gets the natural consequences thereof. There are many good reasons for TMA stances and positioning, a large number of people making up fictitious defense scenarios to cover their 6, and probably some deluded souls who would actually attempt to execute a kata on the street ... or even a friendly version like a sparring match.

Among the several reasons for TMA kata forms historically was to hide the practical (battlefield) application from watching or infiltrating persons from potentially hostile foreign groups.

 

There's "fighting techniques" and then there's real fighting. I spent several
years as a "bouncer", at some pretty rowdy places while in college, and
after a few hundred "fights" I've found that every fight has it's own kind
of "flow", and being versatile and flexible in your "actions"; adjusting your
"moves" to that particular opponent(s) is what keeps you alive.

The things that are always a constant (in victory fighting) is being aggressive,
fast, focused and determined - no emotion, just engagement.

 

New video featuring the Machida’s. They are completely moving away from chambering at their hip/passive “Hikite” and the typical Kihon, even for beginners. Like they said, it ingrains bad habits that are difficult to overcome and retrain. Train it like you will apply it. Good for them and about time.