[Z71bill]

Took the G21 & G19 to the range yesterday - I decided to shoot a mag at 6 feet out of both guns while taking my time and aiming carefully. Something I don't normally do at such close range.

I was shooting at a 6" target and my rounds were hitting just below the target so 3" - 4" low.

But when I do the same slow fire drill at 15 feet I was right on the center of the target.

I usually practice rapid fire "point and shoot" without really taking aim at up close distances - and am satisfied with my results - but being 3-4" low when I am taking careful aim at 6 feet seems like horrible accuracy. I actually shoot better at close range when I just point and shoot.

But where I am puzzled is why am I not low at 15 feet too? It seems like if I am 3" low at 6 feet shouldn't I be 6 or 7" low at 15 feet?

I was just low - not right or left of bulls eye. What gives?

The shots I took at 25 feet were more on target than the shots I took at 6 feet. If I "cheated" and aimed high at close range - then I was on target.

Are most Glocks with stock sights set up like this or am I just special?

 

[dakrat]

Are most Glocks with stock sights set up like this or am I just special?

no. yes.

 

[Rich_J]

Hard to say?

Just some random thoughts; forgive me if you know all this already: Might be at 6' you are target focused, so much so that your sights "at the break" move ever so slightly downward, resulting in 3-4" low. At 15 feet perhaps your target is blurri(er), and you have a better front sight focus, and thus at the break don't allow that to happen?

With irons, using the same sight picture, I would not expect any significant difference in point of impact vs. point of aim with Glocks, or any other service pistol. Having said that, the trigger on a Glock in particular, with the trigger bar moving the cruciform back to compress the Firing Pin Safety, and move the striker back, isn't really all that smooth.

As far as sights, for my Gen 5/slimlines (G34, G19, G26, G43X, G48) I use stock rear heights (0.256") and generally a front at 0.180, typically the Ameriglo Bold. I prefer a "shoot the dot" hold, putting the blob of the tritium vial over the center of the bullseye. I can put American Eagle 124/Speer GD 124+p/Federal HST 147 through a 1" square consistently at 5 yards, a 2" circle at 7, within the black of a B-8 (5.54") at 10 yards and can score of 90 or better with 10 rounds on a B-8 standing 2 handed, at 25 yards. All of these use the same hold, same gun, same sights, same ammo.

If you don't see the results you are looking for, might be an idea to spend some time Dry Practicing, in a safe area. One I've found helpful is the "Wall Drill"; holding the unloaded pistol up to a blank wall and pressing the trigger, focusing on the sights to make sure they aren't moving.

Another couple of tricks I use to help focus on the front sight is to wear a AAA headlamp, and shine it on the sight. Also, a pair of full lens +2 diopter safety glasses, can help magnify the image you can see, really see, what the front sight is doing at the press.

A really good drill, but with live ammo, is to load one round, then remove the magazine. Line up a good sight picture, and carefully press off a shot. Line up the next sight picture, then do a dry press. What happens is after you repeat this a few times, on the second dry press, you notice the sights moving ever so slightly downward, as you "anticipate" the recoil, which of course doesn't happen. Once you recognize the flinch, you can work on eliminating it.

 

[racer88]

Parallax. I found this diagram and annotated it (in red).

 

[5.45 Shooter]

Because bullets don't shoot straight they arc because of gravity.

 

[ronbwolf]

You do realize that sights are set for trajectory right, (see photo) , and changing distance alters point of aim/point of impact, no matter the distance?

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

 

[jbmillard]

Parallax. I found this diagram and annotated it (in red).

View attachment 1003200

I don't think that's the commonly accepted definition of parallax. For this to be a trajectory issue, the bullet would have to start at < 1" below the line of sight (measured from centerline of bore to sights - I'm estimating that at < 1"), fall to 3-4" below the line of sight and then rise again to the line of sight at 15 feet. Not going to happen. The problem lies elsewhere.

 

[ottomatic]

Parallax. I found this diagram and annotated it (in red).

View attachment 1003200

This would be a factor in printing low at closer distances, but it does not account for the 3" - 4" difference. On a Glock there is less than an inch from center-bore to line of sight.

Edit: I guess jbmillard and I had the same physics teacher, as we posted nearly identical thoughts at the same time.

 

[Mountain10mm]

At six feet you should be low, but not 3-4". Should be 3/4"- 1-1/4" depending on the sights and pistol. It's the distance from the top of the front sight to the center of the bore. If you are 3-4" low that's on you - even with misaligned sights. I'm guessing your point and shoot technique involves a different sight picture than your slow fire sight picture. Probably using more the white dots or fiber optic with rapid fire than top of rear sight aligned with top of front sight.

 

[cciman]

At that distance you should be taking a combat sight, with front dot covering where you want to hit.

Unable to diagnose your problem over the internet.

 

[G21.4Me]

Quite frankly, I do not know? I haven't consciously aim a handgun inside of 5 yards in something like 40 + years. I simply point the muzzle, tap the trigger, and the bullets go where I want them to. (I think my brain, the overall sight picture I hold, and the muscles in my arm do all of the shooting for me.)

How did I learn to do this? Well, when I was a young teenager, I used to bounce tin cans along the ground in front of me by shooting at them 'from the hip'. This is a learning experience that has stayed with me all of my long life. If I were training you I would constantly encourage you to 'take your conscious mind' out of the pistol sighting equation.

Actually aiming a pistol at 15 feet is ridiculous!

 

[Z71bill]

You do realize that sights are set for trajectory right, (see photo) , and changing distance alters point of aim/point of impact, no matter the distance?

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

I totally understand this - and for a rifle it seems totally logical.

My issue is at 6 feet and 15 feet I would not expect a 3-4" difference.

 

[Z71bill]

Quite frankly, I do not know? I haven't consciously aim a handgun inside of 5 yards in something like 40 + years. I simply point the muzzle, tap the trigger, and the bullets go where I want them to. (I think my brain, the overall sight picture I hold, and the muscles in my arm do all of the shooting for me.)

How did I learn to do this? Well, when I was a young teenager, I used to bounce tin cans along the ground in front of me by shooting at them 'from the hip'. This is a learning experience that has stayed with me all of my long life. If I were training you I would constantly encourage you to 'take your conscious mind' out of the pistol sighting equation.

Actually aiming a pistol at 15 feet is ridiculous!

Well yes - I don't normally practice careful aim at very short distances with a SD pistol. That is why it was strange when I discovered I was shooting low.

But it is not ridiculous to take aim at 15 feet - sometimes you want to put one jagged hole in your target - I can of course put rounds on target at 15 feet without carefully aiming - but I can't shoot out a bulls eye at that range unless I aim. If you can then good for you -

 

[Z71bill]

At six feet you should be low, but not 3-4". Should be 3/4"- 1-1/4" depending on the sights and pistol. It's the distance from the top of the front sight to the center of the bore. If you are 3-4" low that's on you - even with misaligned sights. I'm guessing your point and shoot technique involves a different sight picture than your slow fire sight picture. Probably using more the white dots or fiber optic with rapid fire than top of rear sight aligned with top of front sight.

I use the second image.

 

[Schrag4]

Parallax. I found this diagram and annotated it (in red).

View attachment 1003200

Height over bore is the most that point of impact can differ from point of aim before it reaches the zeroed distance . OP said it was 3 or 4 inches low. I really doubt the OP has Glock sights that are that high. Something else is definitely going on.

 

[Z71bill]

At six feet you should be low, but not 3-4". Should be 3/4"- 1-1/4" depending on the sights and pistol. It's the distance from the top of the front sight to the center of the bore. If you are 3-4" low that's on you - even with misaligned sights. I'm guessing your point and shoot technique involves a different sight picture than your slow fire sight picture. Probably using more the white dots or fiber optic with rapid fire than top of rear sight aligned with top of front sight.

I will also add

Yes I know - I am not blaming the guns - and since it was the same with both G19 & G21 there must be something I am doing wrong. Why I asked - figured maybe it was something obvious.

I use to shoot low and left with Glocks - much more so than with other guns - I have pretty much cured that issue with a better grip and understanding what I was doing wrong to cause the low left problem.

 

[Mountain10mm]

Practice dry-firing and while doing so make sure the sights don't move while you pull the trigger. Dry fire at the range while on target a dozen or so times before a live round. Make the dry-fires count. Don't rush them. See if your very first live fire round is on target. Only check the first shot. If so, likely a flinch that had caused the problems. Then have a friend load your mags and have him place an empty case in the mag as well. E.g. load three live rounds, then empty case, two live rounds, empty case, etc. Random order. You shoot the mag. You'll see a flinch (if you have one) on the unexpected empty. Assuming you had a flinch, practice will make it go away. Dry-fire, over and over and over again, always keeping the sights aligned. Not even the slightest movement of sights allowed while pulling the trigger, while it breaks or after it breaks (follow through).

When I work on speed drills I often forget the follow through. I have to slow down, mentally reset, and I'm fine. But it's a conscious effort to make sure I keep the sights on target before, during, and after the trigger pull - which can happen in 1/3 second with practice.

 

[G21.4Me]

Well yes - I don't normally practice careful aim at very short distances with a SD pistol. That is why it was strange when I discovered I was shooting low.

But it is not ridiculous to take aim at 15 feet - sometimes you want to put one jagged hole in your target - I can of course put rounds on target at 15 feet without carefully aiming - but I can't shoot out a bulls eye at that range unless I aim. If you can then good for you -

Thank you! Here's a 16 yard target that I fired just as fast as my G21 would go 'Bang!'

​

(Forgive me, but I take these things very seriously! And, especially, since this past Sunday afternoon when a big fat welfare-type dude tried to jack my beautiful brand new car out of a supermarket parking lot while I was sitting in it listening to my equally new (smoking hot) Sirius radio. Time to aim? Who has time to aim! I didn't even see this fellow coming until the very last second. Brought me right back to reality, real fast!)

 

[Bren]

They probably don't expect people to be trying to use the sights at 2 yards and 5 yards. Why would you care where your sights are at 6 feet?

 

[Z71bill]

Thank you! Here's a 16 yard target that I fired just as fast as my G21 would go 'Bang!'

​

(Forgive me, but I take these things very seriously! And, especially, since this past Sunday afternoon when a big fat welfare-type dude tried to jack my beautiful brand new car out of a supermarket parking lot while I was sitting in it listening to my equally new (smoking hot) Sirius radio. Time to aim? Who has time to aim! I didn't even see this fellow coming until the very last second. Brought me right back to reality, real fast!)

Well don't take this the wrong way - nice group for rapid fire without aiming.

I spend most of my SD short range shooting without taking careful aim - and get similar results as what you posted.

But you are also shooting low -

Sometimes I want to "hit the red dot" - and I can't do that at 16 feet unless I take aim. Seems like you can't either. So while I totally agree that in most SD situations you are better off being fast and off by an inch or two - VS taking an extra couple seconds to perfectly line up your sights and take careful aim and be shot before you even get off one round. Don't you ever just want to "hit the red dot"?