More power than a 45 super/ thats it

 

How does it have more power than 45 super when the strength of the case and the capacity are both identical?

 

I don't understand it, either.

If I want more power than my .45acp....then I'll grab another gun: 10mm, .357mag, .44mag, .460s&w......or a rifle, lol.

 

If you think about it, more than 3/4 of pistol and rifle rounds could be done away with.

But I still love my .41 Remington Mag, .257 Weatherby and 16 Guage.

 

and they just keep coming out with more!

the firearm industry faces the problem of convincing users to buy new guns when, the technology hasn't changed much in decades (besides optics), and for most users their products have an indefinite service life.

guns like the sig p365 and shield plus are innovative in the way they have balanced size and capacity, but are they really that different than subcompacts of yesteryear? not really...

and if you buy one this year, what are they going to sell you next year? the same gun in 30 super carry!

 

A freind of mine had a Clark conversion 460 rowland build on a Springfield armory 1911 Government model and it was truly a drop-in conversion and the kit was not very expesive at the time and was accurate and 100 per cent reliable, and becaseu of teh compensator, 100 per cent controlable. Many 460 Rowland conversions for Glocks are not as reliable because they have to use a compensator and not all compesators are the same and the compensator needs to be matched to the weight of the recoil spring.

The 460 Rowland can give you 44 magnum velocities but reloading is tricky because seating depth is critical and seating the bullet too deep can result in dangerous over-pressure situations.

The 45 super makes much more sense and although it won't give you 44 magnum velocities, it will give you full power 10mm Underwood velocities so that you have one gun that shoots both 45 ACP standard ammo and 10mm full power heavy bullet equivelent ammo and you don't need a compensator and you don't need to swap barrels. All you need to do is find the right weight recoil spring that will function with both regular 45 ACP and Plus+P AND 45 Super which is easy to do with a Lone Wolf stainless changeable recoil spring guide and about 3 different weight springs. And what you want is the lightest spring possible that will work with all three, standard pressure, Plus+P and 45 Super eliminating the need to swap springs when you want to shoot 45 Super.

 

I don't see why the super couldn't be loaded to the same pressures as 460 rowland though if you used the correct comp since the only difference is the length of the brass

 

Same reason .44 mag was made longer than .44 special, .357 mag longer than .38 special...

.45 super is the unusual one that fits in the chamber of its lower pressure parent.

 

The difference is that 44 magnum and 357 both have larger case capacities than their shorter siblings and can fit more powder. Not true with the 45 super and 460 Rowland. Hence me questioning the point of 460 Rowland other than to avoid mixing up brass.

 

The difference is that 44 magnum and 357 both have larger case capacities than their shorter siblings and can fit more powder. Not true with the 45 super and 460 Rowland. Hence me questioning the point of 460 Rowland other than to avoid mixing up brass.

That was a byproduct of making it only one way compatible/ making the higher pressure round not fit in the lower pressure chamber.

 

I for one completely agree, I loaded .45 Super pretty hot and it can match 460 Rowland ballistics, at least if you're a handloader and run a comped gun. We don't see .45 Super loaded the same as 460 commercially but it can be done because as you mentioned, both cartridges share the same OAL so the 460 can't hold more powder. I always thought the .45 Super made way more sense than the 460 Rowland, all you really need is a good barrel with proper chamber support and boom, there you go. If you really want to push it, put a comp on it. Pretty simple and you have a Glock capable of shooting bullets ranging from 185gr-300gr+ making 800-1,000+ ft/lbs.

 

your hottest 45 super loads won't touch a similar Rowland loading with the same level of safety .

 

its not just the case it's the barrel and the mods to the gun ,the rowland case wont chamber in a 45ACP it's too long , a 45 super will ,Rowland ammo runs 3-400 ft faster for the same bullet that's significant power level in a semi auto.

You can find a way to supercharge 38 special to 357 magnum pressures and velocity , if you shoot them in a 38 special good luck to you.
You cant just throw a 460 rowland barrel into a 45 Acp without supporting mods the pressure will destroy it .

Uh huh, and what exactly is the difference in strength between running starline 45 super in a well supported threaded 45 acp glock 21 barrel with a comp, vs doing the 460 conversion? By the way the comparison you're making has already been done in 38 special revolvers by seating the bullet way out to match 357 case capacity, in a gun that's strong enough for 357 mag. So again I'll ask, where EXACTLY does the difference in strength come from?

 

You answered your own question you can run 357 mag pressure 38s in a 357 NOT a 38 special , the guns not strong enough the cases are.

If you load 45 super to Rowland specs your gun better be Rowland strength, to ready your Glock for 45 super you get a stout recoil spring , to get it ready for 460 rowland you need a new barrel as well.

It's a system the 460 rowland was developed with their chamber NOT a 45acp chamber.

 

It's to keep people from damaging weak (old, or just inferior) guns. I don't understand not understanding this.

 

I don't think you understand the question. If you're a reloader, and you're wanting 460 rowland power, why spend the money on the proprietary rowland parts when you can do the exact same thing with 45 super?

 

I don't think you understand the question. If you're a reloader, and you're wanting 460 rowland power, why spend the money on the proprietary rowland parts when you can do the exact same thing with 45 super?

Well you're going to need a strong spring, and a good comp. As for the barrel, you'd just need to ask the manufacturer of the barrel with the .45 ACP chamber if it'll take the 40,000 psi or whatever. They're probably going to say no, even if it would. Sure wouldn't hurt to have a heavier slide, to help keep the slide speed down. Probably need mag springs.

What's proprietary other than the chamber?

Anyway, go for it. You'll probably be ok and never get hurt, or maybe you'll be unlucky and find out for yourself what's first to let go.

Edit
Whatever a .460 setup costs, my fingers are worth more.

 

Well you're going to need a strong spring, and a good comp. As for the barrel, you'd just need to ask the manufacturer of the barrel with the .45 ACP chamber if it'll take the 40,000 psi or whatever. They're probably going to say no, even if it would. Sure wouldn't hurt to have a heavier slide, to help keep the slide speed down. Probably need mag springs.

What's proprietary other than the chamber?

Anyway, go for it. You'll probably be ok and never get hurt, or maybe you'll be unlucky and find out for yourself what's first to let go.

The 460 brass is more expensive, the chamber needs to be reamed longer which equals more unnecessary expense for no apparent reason. And that's if you don't buy Rowlands overpriced parts. Again, what's the logical advantage of the 460 rowland?
Now if someone said hey, the barrel steel used or the heat treat is different, and could prove that, then I'd listen. But until then the only argument I've seen for the 460 rowland is an appeal to authority.

 

How many if you 45super loaders ever shoot a load that has been pressure tested?
(crickets chirping).

I see people posting that they have 300gr@1200fps out of their 45super - think that 28kpsi? 40kpsi? They don't know.

The 460 Rowland is a smart way to get the most out of the 45acp.

 

If the case capacity is identical, then why wouldnt pressures for established 460 rowland load data apply to 45 super?

 

I'm not an expert here, but it is my understanding the brass case has almost nothing to do with the safe pressure levels of handgun cartridges - it's all about FIREARM design and construction.

A "new" and more powerful cartridge may only be more powerful because of modern metallurgy and the stamp on the barrel / firearm to prove it.

 

your hottest 45 super loads won't touch a similar Rowland loading with the same level of safety .

How so? If Starline .45 Super brass is as strong as 460 Rowland brass, due to OAL constrains, both could be loaded identical.

You answered your own question you can run 357 mag pressure 38s in a 357 NOT a 38 special , the guns not strong enough the cases are.

If you load 45 super to Rowland specs your gun better be Rowland strength, to ready your Glock for 45 super you get a stout recoil spring , to get it ready for 460 rowland you need a new barrel as well.

It's a system the 460 rowland was developed with their chamber NOT a 45acp chamber.

You can run 460 from a Glock, granted you need a well supported barrel, a compensator and possibly a strong recoil spring assembly. A G21 is a G21, no differences there and you can buy well supported G21 barrels outside of the Rowland "kit" that also have comps.

If you put two and two together, you get the ability to run .45 Super to 460 Rowland levels.

 

How so? If Starline .45 Super brass is as strong as 460 Rowland brass, due to OAL constrains, both could be loaded identical.



You can run 460 from a Glock, granted you need a well supported barrel, a compensator and possibly a strong recoil spring assembly. A G21 is a G21, no differences there and you can buy well supported G21 barrels outside of the Rowland "kit" that also have comps.

If you put two and two together, you get the ability to run .45 Super to 460 Rowland levels.

So you have to build your gun strong enough with a new barrel, to imitate a 460 rowland which in its base form is much hotter than a 45 super , so you are not loading 45 super rounds you are loading 460 rowland rounds , in the wrong case, and shooting them with a barrel the manufacture never intended to shoot loads that hot?

Ya seems legit, does the barrel manufacture of that 45 super barrel warranty that barrel for 40.000psi loads? If so please post that e mail or information.

 

If the case capacity is identical, then why wouldnt pressures for established 460 rowland load data apply to 45 super?

Because no manufacturer has any reason to proof test a .45 ACP gun/barrel for pressure that high.

 

Again, if you can provide any information showing a difference berween 460 barrelsin barrel materials, heat treat, etc please post that email or information.

So you're saying it's because it hasn't actually been tested. Not because there's any actual difference. Got it.

That would depend on the specific gun/barrel. If it has a fully supported chamber, made with quality steel, thicker than necessary for standard .45 ACP loads, I'm sure you'd be fine.

If you go to a pawn shop and buy the cheapest .45 you can find, put a .45 loaded to .460 in it, you'd probably be lucky if you only blow the mag out of the gun.

Rowland probably knows which guns can take it, but they aren't going to tell you, 1, for liability, and 2, for financial incentives.

 

That would depend on the specific gun/barrel. If it has a fully supported chamber, made with quality steel, thicker than necessary for standard .45 ACP loads, I'm sure you'd be fine.

If you go to a pawn shop and buy the cheapest .45 you can find, put a .45 loaded to .460 in it, you'd probably be lucky if you only blow the mag out of the gun.

Rowland probably knows which guns can take it, but they aren't going to tell you, 1, for liability, and 2, for financial incentives.

I guess I didn't say it but the gun that I have in mind is the g21

 

What's the point of 460 Rowland?

When somebody says I carry a 45 because they don't make a 46 it'll shut them up.

 

Back in high school, I had a Chevy Vega with a 4 cylinder. My dad's hobby was hotrods and classic cars. So I asked my dad, hey, can we just toss a V8 in my Vega? And he said, well, sure, but we will need to do a lot more than just toss in a new engine. We need to re-engineer everything from the engine to the wheels and also the frame. It's the same answer is with your proposed "hot rod" 45 Super. It's not just the casing and barrel that needs to be considered.

 

Case, barrel, comp, springs. What else am I missing?

 

Pretty simple really:
1. Starline .45 Super brass is just as strong as their 460R brass.
2. The 460R brass is longer than .45 Super however the OAL isn't any longer which means it cannot hold more powder, at least not in semi autos.
3. 460R guns are simply .45 ACP guns with a different barrel and recoil spring system, possibly a stiffer mag spring. A few other springs might be different depending on the gun, but that's it.

 

Pretty simple really:
1. Starline .45 Super brass is just as strong as their 460R brass.
2. The 460R brass is longer than .45 Super however the OAL isn't any longer which means it cannot hold more powder, at least not in semi autos.
3. 460R guns are simply .45 ACP guns with a different barrel and recoil spring system, possibly a stiffer mag spring. A few other springs might be different depending on the gun, but that's it.

That's what it seems to me as well. I see the rowland barrels are advertised as 416R + heat treat, is there any speculation that the heat treat is any different than another other 416R barrel? Or is this just more of Rowlands "marketing techniques"?

 

Don’t Starline call the Rowland case “heavy duty “? What does that mean?

Anyone been able to find the chamber dimensions for the Rowland? Specifically, throat and leade?

I understand the OP thought process but I wouldn’t be willing to put it into action without more info. Pressures can go from good to kaboom pretty easily. I’m not scared to venture above book load levels and have shot a lot of what I would call nuclear loads in rifle and pistol. I never had an issue but it seems to me now that you’d be better to go with a proven solution.

That's why I'm here it seems a little murky, to be honest I don't plan on getting up to 40k psi but at the same time 40psi isn't terribly high. The 357 sig for example and some that are much higher like 9x23, etc. However those are naturally going to have thicker chamber walls. I'm not worried at all about slide speed as that can be dealt with using a comp and springs. Chamber pressure is all I'm concerned about

 

In addition to your stated concerns, you should learn about keeping the barrel locked longer before its rearward movement after the trigger is pulled. But learn what you can before you pull the trigger.

 

Is there any reason to think that's any different in 460 converted guns?
There are plenty of 40 s&w at 35k psi and some 10mm at 37k psi straight up blowback guns out there so I wouldn't think lockup time in a browning action gun would be an issue at 40k psi but i could be wrong

 

Yeah. Obviously, you do need to learn more about how to manage the "lockdown" time.
Reading from your Original Post, you asked about the 45 Super and 460 Rowland but just now you are comparing whatever you have in mind to the "plenty of ..." . I better just bow out.

 

That's a good idea you've offered nothing in the way of facts anyway

 

That's what it seems to me as well. I see the rowland barrels are advertised as 416R + heat treat, is there any speculation that the heat treat is any different than another other 416R barrel? Or is this just more of Rowlands "marketing techniques"?

Tough to say, although I'd lean more towards it being marketing because the fact is, 45 Super can be loaded identically to the 460R. I used a 4 port KKM barrel and never had an issue running 460 level loads.

 

That is the conclusion I've come to also, but apparently other people on this site don't have any ability to think critically and simply appeal to authority. Mr. Rowland calls it the "mighty 460 rowland" so it must be more mighty than other cartiedges which are in every practical way identical durrrrr

 

You yourself said you don't plan on getting up to 40k PSI so I don't know why you started the discussion when you're not even planning on loading the 45 Super to 460 Rowland levels.

The authentic Rowland barrels are built to handle 50,000 PSI.

460 Rowland runs at 40,000, and 45 Super runs at 28,000. You can ask, but no manufacturer is going to tell you that 40k is safe in their 45 barrel.

In 1997, when the 460 was designed, people were not loading 45 Super to 40k PSI. It just wasn't happening. That is why, according to Rowland himself, the case was lengthened only to prevent accidental mix-ups, which is a common practice in cartridge design.

You ignore the abovementioned fact when you liken Rowland to a snake oil salesman trying to capitalize off of Dean Grennel's work. The reality is that Rowland did something that wasn't being done at the time. Yes, it can be replicated with the 45 Super nowadays with modern parts, but you're going to have to squeeze and tune and push the 45 Super way beyond its original design specifications on parts that were never intended for that much PSI just to match the 460, meanwhile I can go to my local gun store and buy Underwood 460 that beats your 45 Super loads out of the box, and not worry about whether I'm going to lose a finger.

To do this, you would have to buy all the same parts that you would for a 460 conversion, so any reasonable person would just buy a 460 drop-in (from Clark if you don't like Rowland) and be able to safely run all 3 cartridges.

I think you just have some kind of weird bug up your ass about Rowland.

 

I see you created an account just to respond to this. Sound like a shill to me. Shills and trolls don't get responded to on this forum.

 

"...because they don't make a .46!"

Well..there it is. Now they do.

 

I am on the "use free 45 ACP brass for all my super loads" bandwagon since I couldn't see a purpose of spending $$ on special brass when ACP brass has worked fine. Many of my loads exceed 460 data and I've never had a structural issue with any brass.

I did a test with a factory Ruger sr1911 that was heavily sprung and worked up with 45 data to +p then 28k super data up to 460 data with all the main brands of 45 brass and all held 460 level loads without a bulge or any issue in the non ramped 1911 barrel. My g21 is a threaded bar-sto barrel, I can get the same barrel chambered in 460 too but there is no difference in strength between them.

In my 5.3" barrel I've run 185s at 1650fps to 315s at 1200fps with my heavy super loads. I even ran a 352g bullet I use in my 454 BFR up to just over 1000fps in the super to see what it could do.

Nose profiles will cause cycling issues, the 315g bullet I run has a .400" meplat which took a lot of mag modification (trim feed lips, notch the front and re-tilt the follower) to make run from the mag and it still only runs about 60-70% of the time so other than range loads it won't be in the woods with me. The 275g hunter supply bullet will feed reliably though and plow through just about anything you will come up against.

 

Wow that's encouraging. I'm guessing the acp has the advantage of slightly more case capacity too with the thinner brass. Since I won't shoot it all that much I'll probably just fork out for the super brass, it's still quite a bit cheaper than 460 brass. But it's good to know there's such a margin.
I'm mostly interested in a very heavy hard cast bullet for the woods, 300gr sounds awesome but maybe the 275 you mentioned would be the best compromise.

From the wet pack penetration tests I've seen it seems like once you get past around 1200 fps you don't gain any penetration with hardcast boolits, so it sounds like a 275 at around 1200 fps might be the ideal loading for the woods and would be at a pretty moderate pressure.