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4949shooter
I think 10mm is adequate with the right load.
I'm not going to say those extreme penetrators won't work, but I would rather have a hardcast lead bullet. It will be heavier and more dense than the solid copper.
I'm not going to say those extreme penetrators won't work, but I would rather have a hardcast lead bullet. It will be heavier and more dense than the solid copper.
For hunting or stopping big game you cannot and will not beat a 44 mag
View: https://youtu.be/ifDMZyExVqY
Honestly though, not a huge diff in the two with heavy solids imo. I like both, use both in hunting & for back packing. Nothing is stopping a 270-300gr LFP running just 1100fps. Would rather have either over a 10mm for big bears.
Me? I'd rather have a 250-315gr heavy weight .44MAG or .45Colt for a big, thick skinned, extremely dangerous animal that can move fast.
Penetration is all well and good, but you still want the largest frontal area possible, and as much mass as possible, to break things apart while digging deep.
Penetration is all well and good, but you still want the largest frontal area possible, and as much mass as possible, to break things apart while digging deep.
Your dad, is the kinda dad to have amigo! Did the same with my late son. Started him out when real little. Advantage of ranch life. We're always where we can shoot, and be in the woods/hills/canyons. 44mag/45lc, 'copious amounts' of Unique/2400/H110. 275/300gr WFN 24.0grs H110, in both cals, my favorite for possible "heavy work." 
Gotta love big bore Hog Legs !
I better go before I get started!
Have fun guys!
CM
:horse:
Gotta love big bore Hog Legs ! I better go before I get started!
Have fun guys!
CM
:horse:
This reminds me of when I once had a younger partner who started in the pistol days, several years after we'd transitioned from .357 (and larger) revolvers to hi-cap 9's ('89/'90). He was a very tall, strapping young man, who was also on our swat team.
One time he'd asked about .44 revolvers previously carried in police work, basically wondering why anyone would carry a caliber that was so slow to shoot due to the recoil.
Well, he wasn't wrong about Magnum revolvers having more recoil, especially compared to 9mm pistols, but he didn't seem to believe that some skilled revolver shooters weren't as slow as he assumed. I offered to being one of my .44's to the range the next qual day and let him try it. I let him shoot some average factory loads.
He was obviously startled by the recoil shooting even the common factory .44 loads, and the 6 1/2" 629 I'd brought for him to try was even Ported, so it was a fairly controllable example of the breed. (Did I mention that he was about 6'5" 295lbs?) It was obvious that he still questioned (with a smile, of sorts) anyone being able to make fast hits with that gun/caliber combo.
Well, since one of the parts of the qual course-of-fire involved shooting some full-size heavy steel pepper poppers, I told him to shoot at one and see how quickly he could keep the sights on it after a shot. It fell faster than he could recover and reacquire a sight picture. (They were balanced to fall over with 9mm hits.)
So, rather than try to convince him that he didn't know what he didn't know, I used the 629 to do a couple of double taps on the same popper (resetting it a couple times) with the second hit landing while the plate was just beginning to move to fall from the first hit. Granted, it was a Ported gun and they were only standard factory Magnum loads. There's something to be said for learning fast revolver DA trigger recovery and full press.
I still miss the days of Magnum service revolvers, though.
Sure, for the "average" shooter/cop anything more than .38SPL demanded "more" of them, as shooters. It required they develop a better handgun foundation handgun skillset to handle more recoil. However, we had some accomplished guys & gals who carried .357MAG, .41MAG, .44SPL/MAG and .45Colt/ACP revolvers and knew how to shoot them accurately, controllably and effectively.
One time he'd asked about .44 revolvers previously carried in police work, basically wondering why anyone would carry a caliber that was so slow to shoot due to the recoil.
Well, he wasn't wrong about Magnum revolvers having more recoil, especially compared to 9mm pistols, but he didn't seem to believe that some skilled revolver shooters weren't as slow as he assumed. I offered to being one of my .44's to the range the next qual day and let him try it. I let him shoot some average factory loads.
He was obviously startled by the recoil shooting even the common factory .44 loads, and the 6 1/2" 629 I'd brought for him to try was even Ported, so it was a fairly controllable example of the breed. (Did I mention that he was about 6'5" 295lbs?) It was obvious that he still questioned (with a smile, of sorts) anyone being able to make fast hits with that gun/caliber combo.
Well, since one of the parts of the qual course-of-fire involved shooting some full-size heavy steel pepper poppers, I told him to shoot at one and see how quickly he could keep the sights on it after a shot. It fell faster than he could recover and reacquire a sight picture. (They were balanced to fall over with 9mm hits.)
So, rather than try to convince him that he didn't know what he didn't know, I used the 629 to do a couple of double taps on the same popper (resetting it a couple times) with the second hit landing while the plate was just beginning to move to fall from the first hit. Granted, it was a Ported gun and they were only standard factory Magnum loads. There's something to be said for learning fast revolver DA trigger recovery and full press.
I still miss the days of Magnum service revolvers, though.
Sure, for the "average" shooter/cop anything more than .38SPL demanded "more" of them, as shooters. It required they develop a better handgun foundation handgun skillset to handle more recoil. However, we had some accomplished guys & gals who carried .357MAG, .41MAG, .44SPL/MAG and .45Colt/ACP revolvers and knew how to shoot them accurately, controllably and effectively.
Don't mistake my comments about owning a 629 Classic and a Redhawk, and having carried them in my younger LE days, as meaning that I'm fully convinced that DA (trigger-cocking) revolvers have completely replaced SA revolvers, as I like my older Blackhawks (a remaining in-original-condition 3-screw and a New Model/transfer bar model) and SBH. I'm grudgingly thinking that DA revolvers may not be a 'fad' compared to SA wheelies.
I'm grudgingly thinking that DA revolvers may not be a 'fad' compared to SA wheelies.
^^^^^ Funny man. I hear ya as well. Man, all the folks over the years I almost 'turned off' from guns completely saying.."Hey man, wanna shoot my 44/45 ?" lol. The first hand gun my 'present wife of 41 years', ever fired was my SBH loaded hot. Well, we got married, but man was she mad! Ha. Warped sense of humor I know...!
Gotta run right quick FB, maybe more later. Thanks for the story amigo !
CM
:horse:
Gotta run right quick FB, maybe more later. Thanks for the story amigo !
CM
:horse:
The XP round has sharp hard copper edges that catch and cut into flesh and bone more so than softer less ridged lead bullets.
Note how the XP performs in this video compared to other rounds mentioned by 22plinkster.
Yeah, and just within the threshold of the entryway to that spectrum stands the .357MAG, and it's very young 2nd cousins, the 10mm and the .357SIG. These are the mid-bore, mid-range power calibers that begin to trod the realms of handgun calibers a little bit beyond the more common "service" calibers, being the venerable .38SPL, .38 Super, 9mm, .45ACP and now the .40 S&W. Of course, for defensive calibers only intended to protect against people and smaller feral animal threats the more common "service" calibers have usually been considered (by experience) to be "adequate enough".
A little further on from the upper range (heavy bullets) of the .357MAG, and the newer hotter 10's, stands the .41MAG, being kind of a bridge between the mid-range/mid-bore and the big-bore calibers ... and where the the real "balanced ballistics" handgun calibers begin, being the hotter .45Colt loads and the .44MAG.
After them stand the heavy hitter/hunting calibers, meaning the .454C, .460MAG, .500MAG, .480RUGER, .475 Linebaugh, .500 Linebaugh, which fall at the further end of the spectrum, some of which are virtually capable of being nicknamed monster hunter calibers, otherwise known as the older idea of "let's-stuff-a-rifle-cartridge-into-a-handgun-and-see-how-that-does" effort.
A little further on from the upper range (heavy bullets) of the .357MAG, and the newer hotter 10's, stands the .41MAG, being kind of a bridge between the mid-range/mid-bore and the big-bore calibers ... and where the the real "balanced ballistics" handgun calibers begin, being the hotter .45Colt loads and the .44MAG.
After them stand the heavy hitter/hunting calibers, meaning the .454C, .460MAG, .500MAG, .480RUGER, .475 Linebaugh, .500 Linebaugh, which fall at the further end of the spectrum, some of which are virtually capable of being nicknamed monster hunter calibers, otherwise known as the older idea of "let's-stuff-a-rifle-cartridge-into-a-handgun-and-see-how-that-does" effort.
The chief advantage of a properly loaded 10mm suitable for defense against dangerous animals isn't so much the virtues of the caliber, as that it can be chambered in a modern hi-cap semiauto pistol.
Sure, you can load a little heavier bullet weights than the modern heavy hunting loads made in .357MAG, and it's almost a millimeter wider in diameter.
The chief benefits are really that modern double stack pistols give the user more rounds available before loading is necessary, compared to a revolver, and the operation of the recoil operated locked breech pistol also aids in recoil management, which is handy with lightweight plastic pistols.
Of course, handloaders and handgun hunting enthusiasts who eagerly snap up the occasional short production runs of the S&W M610 revolvers would probably promote the advantages of the DA revolver, too. That's a lot of weight to lug around on a belt for hours on end, though. Plastic is more convenient.
Sure, you can load a little heavier bullet weights than the modern heavy hunting loads made in .357MAG, and it's almost a millimeter wider in diameter.
The chief benefits are really that modern double stack pistols give the user more rounds available before loading is necessary, compared to a revolver, and the operation of the recoil operated locked breech pistol also aids in recoil management, which is handy with lightweight plastic pistols.
Of course, handloaders and handgun hunting enthusiasts who eagerly snap up the occasional short production runs of the S&W M610 revolvers would probably promote the advantages of the DA revolver, too.
That's a lot of weight to lug around on a belt for hours on end, though. Plastic is more convenient.
Nothing. I am merely saying the penetration on deep flesh has not yet been proven compared to a conventional hard cast bullet. Those flutes may slow it down in flesh, which may be a good thing for tissue disruption but may impede penetration somewhat.
Some real world shootings on bear and / or moose would help. Like I said, I would still feel comfortable carrying it, and sometimes do,
I think the 10 mm is underrated, it has less recoil and more rounds. In this case someone shooting a heavy recoiling .44 mag and up might not have been able to get that fast accurate second shot or third shot if needed.
Well, you could say the same thing for someone not being able to get off a 2nd or 3rd shot of 10mm (especially if a custom hot loading) fast enough, either.
Depends on the shooter.
I used to demonstrate that I could double tap targets faster than our average 9mm shooters (using a timer), and even hammer a pepper popper before it had started tipping from the first hit. That was with full power Magnum, too. Granted, it was easier to do with the Ported revolver than the non-ported one.
It's always going to be shooter dependent.
Then again, the Freeze part of the Freeze, Flight or Fight hard-wired response may make it a moot point for anyone who doesn't train to react to nasty, surprise situations.
Sure, the same person, equally trained and practiced in shooting both Magnum revolvers and 10mm pistols is likely always going to realize an advantage shooting a recoil-operated Browning pistol design versus a DA revolver ... and the SA revolver guys are really behind the 8-Ball if they aren't using 2-hands, so their support hand thumb can roll their thumb-cocking for rapid shots.
Everything's a compromise ... even if you're a "fan".
There's even going to be the aficionados who want to "debate" whether someone can operate a 12GA pump shotgun w/slugs suitably "fast enough" as a 12GA Auto shotgun in some pants-dump situation.
Depends on the shooter.
I used to demonstrate that I could double tap targets faster than our average 9mm shooters (using a timer), and even hammer a pepper popper before it had started tipping from the first hit. That was with full power Magnum, too. Granted, it was easier to do with the Ported revolver than the non-ported one.
It's always going to be shooter dependent.
Then again, the Freeze part of the Freeze, Flight or Fight hard-wired response may make it a moot point for anyone who doesn't train to react to nasty, surprise situations.
Sure, the same person, equally trained and practiced in shooting both Magnum revolvers and 10mm pistols is likely always going to realize an advantage shooting a recoil-operated Browning pistol design versus a DA revolver ... and the SA revolver guys are really behind the 8-Ball if they aren't using 2-hands, so their support hand thumb can roll their thumb-cocking for rapid shots.
Everything's a compromise ... even if you're a "fan".
There's even going to be the aficionados who want to "debate" whether someone can operate a 12GA pump shotgun w/slugs suitably "fast enough" as a 12GA Auto shotgun in some pants-dump situation.
I always keep a short barreled backup on me when in the woods. If something God forbid gets on me I want to be able to draw and point without the restrictions of a long barrel / slide.
Not pretending it doesn't depend on that nature of the handgun.
It's just that having used Magnum revolvers for so many years, with handloads and factory loads (including mild to wild), I've gained a little experience with what I can do with them. At least in the DA models, as the thumb-cocking SA's are always going to be slower than the trigger-cocking guns, even using the second hand's thumb to cock the hammer as the gun rolls back down.
Granted, it's easier to use my 6 1/2" 629-4 Classic, which is ported, but even with my non-ported 5 1/2" Redhawk, while I'm no Jerry Miculek, I can run accurate splits (on paper or popper) in the .2+/- range using Magnum loads.
I can't do that with the last .500 I shot, even using middle-of-the-road bullet weight loads, but the .44MAG isn't that bad. We were taking video that day, while using assorted Demo guns, and since I was wearing a t-shirt you could see - in slow motion - the muscle tremors caused by the recoil running from my forearm, up through my upper arm, into my shoulder and then ending at my neck when the .500 was fired. (Not as bad as shooting a Freedom Arms .454 w/o shooting gloves, though. My hand hurt for a couple days after running a couple cylinder loads through that FA .454 w/o shooting gloves and with the factory wood stocks. Ugh.)
Yet that does not mean it is the best tool for the job. It is what can be shot well enough, not because it is superior to a 44mag or 45colt or 500mag.
How fast is 'fast' enough?
Well, here's a dude who was smokin' fast in the '80s ...
Skip forward to the 0.59 sec. mark, and don't blink.
3-shot Mozambique Drill filmed IN REAL TIME
from concealed appendix draw:
View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fXv8IepBVJQ
Well, here's a dude who was smokin' fast in the '80s ...
Skip forward to the 0.59 sec. mark, and don't blink.
3-shot Mozambique Drill filmed IN REAL TIME
from concealed appendix draw:
I don't think we are talking about "average shooters" who are hunting the back country of Alaska or continental North America. We are talking about skilled marksmen who can take game in the field, often under severe or less than ideal shooting conditions.
So...if you guys want to take Jerry Miculek out of the equation (I still would like to see him perform this challenge), let's take it up a notch and talk about an experienced shooter / hunter /woodsman, and what he could do with either combination.
Someone said it earlier I believe, it depends on which platform one is most comfortable with.
So...if you guys want to take Jerry Miculek out of the equation (I still would like to see him perform this challenge), let's take it up a notch and talk about an experienced shooter / hunter /woodsman, and what he could do with either combination.
Someone said it earlier I believe, it depends on which platform one is most comfortable with.
Maybe you guys are right about Jerry:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7W-5QE3jzw
i would like to see him do this drill with a Glock 20.
i would like to see him do this drill with a Glock 20.
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