[MD357]

So says Mr. Pincus.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMbQYkMoJGo"]Rob Pincus on Sub-Compact 1911s for The Truth About Guns - YouTube[/ame]


http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20.../05/rob-pincus/rob-pincus-sub-compact-1911s-suck/comment-page-1/#comment-263325

Goes on to say 1911s shouldn't be used for SD work in the comments below the video..

Kinda funny he shows an EE Kimber as an example.....


Discuss.

 

[fnfalman]

What a joke.

He claimed to be a "teacher" and not an engineer so he doesn't know how the gun work.

If he's a teacher and he can't teach people how to operate their pistols; any decent pistol, then he's a suck teacher.

 

[TFL_Rob]

Yeah... uh... not exactly what I said...

More like: "I'm a teacher, not an engineer... I'm not interested in diagnosing why every subcompact 1911 anyone has ever brought to a class wasn't reliable."

When a non-gen-4-Glock malfs, I want to know why, because it is an anomaly. When a Kimber Ultra Carry Malfs, it is like the sun coming up... I don't get scared and hide in a cave, I go on about my business. That business is educating and advising people about issues related to personal defense. Those issues include picking appropriate gear. 3" 1911s are not appropriate gear.

-RJP

 

[MD357]

Yeah... uh... not exactly what I said...

More like: "I'm a teacher, not an engineer... I'm not interested in diagnosing why every subcompact 1911 anyone has ever brought to a class wasn't reliable."

When a non-gen-4-Glock malfs, I want to know why, because it is an anomaly. When a Kimber Ultra Carry Malfs, it is like the sun coming up... I don't get scared and hide in a cave, I go on about my business. That business is educating and advising people about issues related to personal defense. Those issues include picking appropriate gear. 3" 1911s are not appropriate gear.

-RJP

Depends on the setup, granted most factory sub 4" are finicky I will agree because that window is tight. I will say that I've seen plenty of custom 3" setups that would cost you some money in your bet, and in fact I'd wager an EMP would aswell.

Is it your belief that 1911s in general aren't suitable for SD work?

 

[TxGun]

Personally, I've never liked the subcompact 1911s very much because, IME, they are much more finicky as a group than the larger guns. I love the Government model (5") and Commander-sized (4"-4 1/4") guns, but Officer's (3 1/2") and below operate, as MD says, in a much tighter tolerance window and most 1911 problems I've experienced have been with the short guns, and I've had a few. I know there are some reliable ones out there...especially on the web ...but I'm not much of a fan. There was another thread about "smallest, most reliable 1911", or some such, and I don't recall too many subs mentioned there...at least not 1911 subs.

 

[TTM65]

Yeah... uh... not exactly what I said...

More like: "I'm a teacher, not an engineer... I'm not interested in diagnosing why every subcompact 1911 anyone has ever brought to a class wasn't reliable."

When a non-gen-4-Glock malfs, I want to know why, because it is an anomaly. When a Kimber Ultra Carry Malfs, it is like the sun coming up... I don't get scared and hide in a cave, I go on about my business. That business is educating and advising people about issues related to personal defense. Those issues include picking appropriate gear. 3" 1911s are not appropriate gear.

-RJP

I can only say that you are not comfortable shooting the 1911 or you are using poorly manufactured 3" examples. I have yet to have one come back with a complaint of it not being reliable. Not only do I build them but I also carry one for SD. I would venture to say that I could complete any SD course of fire that you host as efficiently with a 3" 1911 as you can with your light weight plastic gun. Not a dig, not a fight, just plain facts.

 

[Mayhem like Me]

I can only say that you are not comfortable shooting the 1911 or you are using poorly manufactured 3" examples. I have yet to have one come back with a complaint of it not being reliable. Not only do I build them but I also carry one for SD. I would venture to say that I could complete any SD course of fire that you host as efficiently with a 3" 1911 as you can with your light weight plastic gun. Not a dig, not a fight, just plain facts.

I will tell you that based on my 25 plus years of instructing, that the math shows you to be wrong.

Sub 4 inch 1911 have shown more malfunctions/stoppages in classes I teach over the years than any other pistol type.

Even more than the .380s like Walther and Sig.

Can you get a reliable 3 inch gun? absolutely.

It is more difficult and it is running in a very fine sweet spot, they are less forgiving of loads grip and spring wear.

3 inch 1911's are not for most people if you can't diagnose the problems in your compact blaster you should look at another more reliable pistol configuration.

 

[GlockFanBoy25]

^^^^100% agreed. I also teach a new shooters a basic pistol course 2 or 3 times a month and Mr. Pincus is spot on here. If you asked me what the least reliable type of gun is the 3 1/2'' 1911 would be my answer. They just don't seem to ever work when the students bring them to class. :dunno:

 

[phalanxr]

I have a 3 year old Kimber ultra crimson carry II, itty bitty little ****er.

1000's of rounds through it and its notorious for not fully seating in the chamber. Will rack back and go almost all the way forward, so much in fact that to my eye I don't notice (And I shoot.... alot), I slowly pull the trigger, nothing. Slap the back of the Kimber, pull trigger, BAM.

Does it with every kind of ammo, and several new mags.

Fun gun though.

-Phal

 

[faawrenchbndr]

Why not just send it to Kimber and have it fixed?! :dunno:

 

[TTM65]

I will admit that I have fixed numerous officer sized 1911's in my shop, mostly Kimbers and SF's. Never a colt to date and I have shot my officer size in non professional shoots at the club. The difference is I do understand the little beast as well as tuning them. I guess that is the difference between a production gun built for maximum profit and a custom build. I still think it is what you are used to and how much your life is worth to you. Many times people come into the shop and ask for a "home defense" gun and want to spend $250.00 or less. I would imagine you get quite a few of these types in your classes or those who buy something because the "net" warriors said it was a good gun. They come to class and have no idea of how the gun actually works.
I still stand behind my custom officers size and the bad guy who ends up in the way of it had better not hope it is a POS 3" 1911 as it would be their last thought.

 

[Dexters]

The part of the gun that needs to be compact is the grip. That is the part of the gun that sticks out of you waist band. The barrel area is in your pants. The only reason to have a 3" barrel if you are really trying to cut weight.

I have the Kimber Compact CDP II - 4" barrel and 7 round grip - a good compromise.

 

[HexHead]

The Colt New Agent I had was one of the most reliable handguns I've ever owned. Hundreds an hundreds of rounds fired and not one single FTAnything. Ate everything I fed it without issue. It was Gen3 Glock-like in it's reliability.

 

[glock2740]

I haven't had any issues with the few 3"-3.5" 1911's that I own. But, that style of 1911 is known for being finicky, even more so than other sized 1911's. I think what Rob is saying, is that for the average shooter, the 1911 requires more training than the Glock/M&P/XD, which is true. And that I'm very sure that he sees more issues with 1911's over the striker fired guns, as he sees ALOT more of all of the above in action ALOT more than any of the rest of us. He has a valid point. I noticed he did say non-Gen 4 Glocks, as I'm sure he's seen the issues associated with these first hand. I'd be interested to know how the Gen 4 Glocks compare with the smaller 1911's. Also, it's nice to know that we have someone on the forum like Rob, who is a very knowledgable guy. I watch his show regularly and get some good information from it.

 

[fnfalman]

How many people that own subcompact M1911 are going to be doing ninja rolls and spetnaz flips while wallowing in muck for two days, shooting hundreds upon hundreds of rounds in order to defend themselves?

 

[Wil Ufgood]

How many people that own subcompact M1911 are going to be doing ninja rolls and spetnaz flips while wallowing in muck for two days, shooting hundreds upon hundreds of rounds in order to defend themselves?

 

[zackwatt]

I have a Ultra CDP II, and I have only had one FTE in 300rds...and I think I limp-wristed it.

 

[MD357]

Here's one thing to consider, in the classes I've taken there are a LOT of guys that aren't used to shooting ~1500 rounds in two days. At the end of the first day, much less the second.... you have fatigue. Don't care which platform it is, I've seen someone limpwrist a G17 at the end of an 8 hour class. I've also seen a guy put down his G27 for a G19 loaner because of fatigue. I can't imagine shooting a compact .45 1911 all day and enjoying it. I'd also imagine a number of compact platforms would have trouble..... except an EMP and a G26.

 

[TX expat]

I can only say that you are not comfortable shooting the 1911 or you are using poorly manufactured 3" examples. I have yet to have one come back with a complaint of it not being reliable. Not only do I build them but I also carry one for SD. I would venture to say that I could complete any SD course of fire that you host as efficiently with a 3" 1911 as you can with your light weight plastic gun. Not a dig, not a fight, just plain facts.

Rob offered up a challenge on this site, down in the comments:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/05/rob-pincus/rob-pincus-sub-compact-1911s-suck/

Take him up on it!

 

[fnfalman]

Here's one thing to consider, in the classes I've taken there are a LOT of guys that aren't used to shooting ~1500 rounds in two days. At the end of the first day, much less the second.... you have fatigue. Don't care which platform it is, I've seen someone limpwrist a G17 at the end of an 8 hour class. I've also seen a guy put down his G27 for a G19 loaner because of fatigue. I can imagine shooting a compact .45 1911 all day and enjoying it. I'd also imagine a number of compact platforms would have trouble..... except an EMP and a G26.

That's for damn sure.