That’s a confidence killer right there. Man. You ain’t lying about .45 being expensive to shoot and I love my 21.4 but damn.. I don’t have a clue about your failure though..
My last two pistols this year have been 9mm.. simply cheaper to shoot, which I do enjoy.

 

“Confidence killer” is exactly the right words. First time it happened, I figured it was just a fluke and quarantined the mag it happened with. But for the exact same thing to happen with my other Gen 5 G21, with a different mag on the 2nd to last round in the mag... That’s just too specific to write off. I’m not sure I want to blow another 500+ rounds of .45 just to find out if they will do it again when my Gen 4s are flawless.

In fact, thinking for the long term, I wonder if I should replace my two Gen 5 G21s with Gen 3 21SF’s. My reasoning is:
1. Glock has a track record of discontinuing Gen 4 models in calibers where the Gen 5 has come online, but continue Gen 3 production.

2. I can easily find OEM slide and frame parts kits for the Gen 3 G21SF and keep several to keep the guns going the rest of my days, whereas I can’t find any OEM slide and frame parts kits for the Gen 4 G21s.

Alternatively, I could try to find a more recent production Gen 5 G21 (both mine are early production) and start over in the hopes it will be good to go.

 

When you have an intermitent failure like that, it's your grip. You relax just slightly and it won't cycle.

Hold your gun like this, high in the web of your hand.

 

That is exactly how I grip it, and I was shooting 500 rounds through one of my Gen 4s that same day without issues. I am familiar with limpwristing, but that’s not always the answer when a Glock malfunctions. And for it to do it on the 2nd to last round of the mag with the exact same type of malfunction doesn’t at all resemble the type of malfunctions coming from grip.

 

Opinion:
As you have eliminated the possibility of it being a single problematic magazine ( mark them both anyway and monitor them) and since it happened with two entirely different weapons…….. you have to look at the commonality…….
It’s either the Ammo or something you are doing.
With all due respect it’s probably you ( your grip)

 

All I can say is, my experience with my Glock 45 ACP pistols (other than the 36 which definitely requires a good grip) is, I would really have to work hard to get them to jam. I have zero experience with the Gen 5 21 but it is hard to imagine Glock has done something to them that makes them less reliable.

 

May be a combination of your grip and the PMC. I shoot a lot of the PMC due to price. It is weaker and sure as hell is dirtier. I've got about 1500 rounds of PMC through my gen5 and no issues. Might be you need some stouter loads til she settles down. Lawman is definitely stouter IME than PMC Bronze.

 

My first thought is that the magazine springs are too weak. The malfunctions occur when the magazine is almost empty, and the spring is almost to it's full length.
Are the two offending mags the same age, with approximately the same amount of rounds through them, and the same treatment (like both left fully loaded)?

 

Maybe dirty mags and/or weak mag springs?

 

Never put your total faith in equipment. Anything and everything has the ability to fail -- it does not matter who makes it, or what you want to or can or can't believe.

That's why training schools teach "failure drills".

Looking at it from another perspective

1/638 = 99.84 % reliability Damn high

99.99 (or 1/1000) may be more unrealistic than you think, or impossible, just lucky.

 

I was thinking the same thing. I shoot mainly PMC, Blazer Brass, S&B, and Magtech, so almost all my range time is with budget-friendly ammo. With those brands, and particularly with polymer-framed pistols, I'd consider a 0.16% failure rate acceptable after an extended range session.

I have two G21.3s. One is completely factory, and while I don't recall any malfunctions, there's likely been a few. The other G21.3 was assembled from parts and is a range toy. I can recall several malfunctions while fine tuning the internal components.

Another thought is round count/cleaning. I rarely shoot Lawman, but my perception is PMC and Blazer Brass leave more residue than other brands. I also perceive 45 ACP as leaving more residue than 9mm or 40. Is it possible 250-ish rounds without cleaning could have contributed?

 

I'd not be surprised to find that virtually any brand's .45ACP Ball loads are produced on the budget end of materials and manufacturing, including consistency of power levels.

You may be confident that your grip didn't 'bobble' at just the wrong moment, especially during a long range session (when fatigue can start to affect anyone's grip stability)? Maybe budget Ball ammo power levels dipped a bit on a couple of rounds, and the slide short-stroked. Sure, live-round 'stovepipes' are often attributed to magazine issues (lips or springs), but I'd not rule out a tired grip and/or budget Ball power levels.

FWIW, just one stoppage during 500-700+ rounds wouldn't be something that unduly concerned me. Things can happen in the real world.

If it were me ... I'd assess the spring strength of all my G21 magazines, and then be willing to write it off to either a momentary, unconscious fatigue-influenced grip issue during a long range session, or a budget Ball round being loaded at a low power level (short-stroking slide run).

Here's a question I'd ask myself, though. When this happened, while I was curious of what happened because it was only a range occurrence, would I have been able to quickly ID and resolve it if it had happened outside the range, in an actual incident?

 

It appears the ammo didn't get the opportunity to slide in behind the extractor then up the breech face.

This could be caused by several things:
Slide not moving rearward enough due to inconsistent ammo. I've seen complaints rise about qc from company owners.

Maybe the extractor is a smidgen too tight, or has a sharp edge, or the breech face and extractor could use more polishing by cycling more rounds.

Maybe there's a magazine(s) issue, that'll sort itself out in time with more use.

If it were me, I'd just keep shooting it, or cycle dummy rounds to help smooth matters a bit.

My 43X wasn't reliable until 750 rounds or so.

 

To answer a few questions/points:
-The first time this malfunction happened (with the first G21 Gen 5) was with Speer Lawman 230gr TMJ, so I don't think it's an ammunition thing.
-Both magazines that were involved were very fresh and had not been kept loaded. I got rid of the first mag that did it, and then another one did it.
-The Glock 21 is one of the few pistols I can shoot all day without getting fatigued. Actually, I just got back from shooting 550 rounds through a G21 Gen 4 I'd been meaning to put some rounds through, and it didn't have any issues.

The only thing I can think of is that maybe the increased recoil spring weight of the Gen 5 (it is a little heavier), combined with a large magazine spring with most of its tension let out (being on the second to last round), causes the slide to come forward before the next round fully presents itself and the stripper catches the cartridge on the edge, making it wedge out of the mag. I have no way of telling whether this is the case or not, or why it would only happen every few hundred rounds or so, but it's not something I've ever seen with previous generation Glock 21s even 500+ rounds into a range session.

Pictured here is the 1st G21 Gen 5 having the exact same malfunction on the 12th round of the mag using 230gr Speer Lawman ammunition:

 

You may observe 100% function in a pistol for a substantial period of time. But unless you do some testing by regressing/progressing variables, you'll never know how close to the edge you are. All you know is that you haven't slipped over it yet.

If you are pretty close to the edge, especially with negatives like a heavy recoil spring, it may not take much change to slip over. With factory ball, you really don't know how consistent the charges are, even with some testing.

A combination of grip and a light charge could easily cause this without being very evident to the shooter. And all sorts of mechanical issues could also play into it. Again, not issues large enough to cause problems when everything else is hunky dory, but big enough to tip the balance when other variables change.

 

...
-The first time this malfunction happened (with the first G21 Gen 5) was with Speer Lawman 230gr TMJ, so I don't think it's an ammunition thing.

I'd not be so quick to rule out a possible ammunition issue. Keep in mind that Speer Lawman is referred to as training ammunition. Budget training ammunition. It has a published velocity of 830fps, versus 890fps for Speer's 230gr GDHP load. That's down in the velocity range of Winchester's USA budget "White Box", at 835fps. It wouldn't take much for a round to dip down from the low 800's into the 700's. Consider that Federal's American Eagle 230gr Ball is listed at 890fps, even though it's also usually considered a budget line.

PMC .45 Ball? Well, it's been some years, but that was what our swat guys bought for an outside training class, and they started experiencing a variety of issues which gave them problems during the class, and had to scramble to switch ammunition. Budget imported training Ball (at that time, anyway).

...
The only thing I can think of is that maybe the increased recoil spring weight of the Gen 5 (it is a little heavier), combined with a large magazine spring with most of its tension let out (being on the second to last round), causes the slide to come forward before the next round fully presents itself and the stripper catches the cartridge on the edge, making it wedge out of the mag. ...

Keep in mind that both over (hotter) and under-pressured (weaker) loads can create slide velocity and/or slide travel issues that can interfere with feeding timing when it comes to the slide's pick-up rail catching the magazine's top round. It's usually thought that some over-pressured loads might cause the slide to 'bounce back' (forward) faster, and sometimes too fast for a mag spring to be able to bounce the top back upward against the mag lips for faster running slide to catch it at the right 'timing'. (Remember that recoil forces can cause magazine stacks to bounce downward, away from the source of the recoil forces, and if a mag spring is either worn, or at its longest length, it may not keep up with the slide's demands.)

In your case, with fresh mags and springs, I'd be more inclined to consider the possible cause as being lower-powered loads that might've shortened normal slide travel run/velocity.

Adding a relatively new/fresh RSA to the equation, and a lower-powered load might not be able to overcome its tension as well as a more powerful load. Short-stroke cycling, which can happen without us being aware of it, especially in a relatively slower/lower recoiling .45ACP gun.

It's all guesswork and speculation without being able to examine the gun and chrono the training ammo

 

I'd not be so quick to rule out a possible ammunition issue. Keep in mind that Speer Lawman is referred to as training ammunition. Budget training ammunition. It has a published velocity of 830fps, versus 890fps for Speer's 230gr GDHP load. That's down in the velocity range of Winchester's USA budget "White Box", at 835fps. It wouldn't take much for a round to dip down from the low 800's into the 700's. Consider that Federal's American Eagle 230gr Ball is listed at 890fps, even though it's also usually considered a budget line.

PMC .45 Ball? Well, it's been some years, but that was what our swat guys bought for an outside training class, and they started experiencing a variety of issues which gave them problems during the class, and had to scramble to switch ammunition. Budget imported training Ball (at that time, anyway).



Keep in mind that both over (hotter) and under-pressured (weaker) loads can create slide velocity and/or slide travel issues that can interfere with feeding timing when it comes to the slide's pick-up rail catching the magazine's top round. It's usually thought that some over-pressured loads might cause the slide to 'bounce back' (forward) faster, and sometimes too fast for a mag spring to be able to bounce the top back upward against the mag lips for faster running slide to catch it at the right 'timing'. (Remember that recoil forces can cause magazine stacks to bounce downward, away from the source of the recoil forces, and if a mag spring is either worn, or at its longest length, it may not keep up with the slide's demands.)

In your case, with fresh mags and springs, I'd be more inclined to consider the possible cause as being lower-powered loads that might've shortened normal slide travel run/velocity.

Adding a relatively new/fresh RSA to the equation, and a lower-powered load might not be able to overcome its tension as well as a more powerful load. Short-stroke cycling, which can happen without us being aware of it, especially in a relatively slower/lower recoiling .45ACP gun.

It's all guesswork and speculation without being able to examine the gun and chrono the training ammo

I've always preferred Speer Lawman or Federal American Eagle for practice/vetting ammunition because I've experienced consistently good QC from them, but you're right, the Speer load is listed at a lower velocity. Assuming AE is higher velocity as it claims, I wonder if it would not have happened with that ammunition...?

I don't usually buy PMC, it was just what was available at the range that day and I was still waiting on another shipment of Lawman I ordered to arrive. That was the first time I'd ever had a PMC round not go through the entire cycle of operations without an issue, but I haven't shot a whole lot of it in pistols. Either way, the velocity is stated to be in the low 800s as the Lawman, so it could be the same thing.

Hm... I could try running a case of American Eagle to see if it happens again. That's an expensive experiment, though.

 

You got some good info so far, a little extra.

Use this gun and you will not have that kind of jam,
the SS revolving pistol in the background, haha.

I think maybe that jam could come from weak loads
in a new gun, could the slide not be going to the rear
enough to get back of the top round in the mag but
enough to pick up the round in the extractor grove????

I have had many different jams in my glocks, have also
done many tests with different barrels and loads though.

Just a thought.

 

You got some good info so far, a little extra.

Use this gun and you will not have that kind of jam,
the SS revolving pistol in the background, haha.

I think maybe that jam could come from weak loads
in a new gun, could the slide not be going to the rear
enough to get back of the top round in the mag but
enough to pick up the round in the extractor grove????

I have had many different jams in my glocks, have also
done many tests with different barrels and loads though.

Just a thought.

That revolver in the background is a Ruger GP100 that is about to go to Gemini Custom for a trigger job. It's definitely going to be a carry gun.

Funnily enough its a replacement for a 7 shot GP100 that had so many issues due to being a 7 rounder that Ruger determined they couldn't fix it and sent a 6 shot to replace it (which I requested a 6 shot instead of another 7 shot. My brother's 7 shot had the same issues.)

 

Yes, we have three six inch old gp100s.
two are from the late 80s and one is from the 90s.
Do you remember the old no lug on the bottom
of the barrel?

Years ago I had twenty one SS 357 Rugers,
I think the number has grown some now, haha.

 

Don't take this personally - it was just MY experience.

I had a S&W M&P40 that I purchased new. My goal was to put so many rounds through it without any failures before I would "trust it".

I can't recall the magic number - its been almost 20 years ago - but just say it was 300.

I would get to 250+ rounds and the darn thing would jam.

After a few attempts I was about to give up and then I had a thought.

Maybe it was ME.

I started thinking I was starting to get tired after shooting so many rounds that maybe I was getting sloppy and not keeping a proper grip.

So the next time I took it to the range I would shoot a few mags - then plink with my .22 rifle for a while or take a break / have a soda go to the restroom.

Gun never jammed again - so I think I had my answer.

I also (even though I use to do this exact thing) think putting 500 or 1,000 rounds through a gun to make sure it is reliable is not worth it.

Sure I want to shoot a few boxes before I would CC any gun - but I have changed my thoughts about needed XX number of rounds before I will trust it.

Guns get dirty - they get hot - and I doubt any SD situation I ever get in with any gun is going to use more than 15 rounds. So what good does me shooting 300 have to do with anything?

Your gun, your ammo so your call - just my thoughts based on my own experience.

 

Don't take this personally - it was just MY experience.

I had a S&W M&P40 that I purchased new. My goal was to put so many rounds through it without any failures before I would "trust it".

I can't recall the magic number - its been almost 20 years ago - but just say it was 300.

I would get to 250+ rounds and the darn thing would jam.

After a few attempts I was about to give up and then I had a thought.

Maybe it was ME.

I started thinking I was starting to get tired after shooting so many rounds that maybe I was getting sloppy and not keeping a proper grip.

So the next time I took it to the range I would shoot a few mags - then plink with my .22 rifle for a while or take a break / have a soda go to the restroom.

Gun never jammed again - so I think I had my answer.

I also (even though I use to do this exact thing) think putting 500 or 1,000 rounds through a gun to make sure it is reliable is not worth it.

Sure I want to shoot a few boxes before I would CC any gun - but I have changed my thoughts about needed XX number of rounds before I will trust it.

Guns get dirty - they get hot - and I doubt any SD situation I ever get in with any gun is going to use more than 15 rounds. So what good does me shooting 300 have to do with anything?

Your gun, your ammo so your call - just my thoughts based on my own experience.

I'm going to try that. Maybe there is something to fatigue (even without noticing it) factoring into it.

I do require 1000 rounds through a pistol without a stoppage before I'll carry or trust it. Maybe that's overboard, but it's in line with requirements from government contracts and the overall industry standard. I don't think it's too much to ask of a life saving piece of emergency equipment, but I'm perhaps a bit more OCD than most regarding that.

I'm going to try shooting a bit and taking breaks, and perhaps reducing the overall round count of my range sessions... part of that isn't even voluntary. .45 is expensive, especially to blow through like that.

 

deleted

 

same guy that claims he killed a coyote but didn't and used someone else's pics.

What are you talking about?

 

Try different ammo.

 

So shooting 500 rounds in one setting from a static postition causes fatigue. Try loading only 3 rounds in each magazine and function fire them.

 

Hey that's a good idea. I'll try just loading 3 rounds in each mag. That should show the issue if there is one I would think.

 

I’ll wait on the G21.5 for a year or so to make sure all the bugs / kinks are worked out with just about every possible shooting scenario having been addressed by Glock for improved reliability .

 

That's usually what I do, and it's a smart move. I did buy the first Gen 5 G21 I could because I'm an avid G21 fan. They've been out a year now, so if there was an issue, might be new production ones are fine. It's possible there's nothing even wrong with mine, seeing they both only did it once in 600+ rounds.

 

When I first read this my first thought was "limp wristing", but it could be a low powder cartridge?
I just shot a GSSF Match, G17 MOS, G22, G21 and G30. I only had one malfunction. Failure to eject with the G30, case stayed in the barrel, it was also my third to last stage in six divisions. It could have been limp wristing, or it was just a low powder load. I reshot the whole stage and all was good. I shot the whole match with my own reloads.

 

I thought some of you folks might be interested in the NIJ testing standards for semiauto pistols used in law enforcement. This is from Page 7 (of second link) ...

4.6 Firing Requirement
4.6.1 Model Qualification Firing Requirement
When tested in accordance with Section 5.6.1, the pistol shall fire 600 rounds of ammunition with no structural or mechanical failures and no more than five malfunctions. Of the five allowable malfunctions no more than three shall be firing malfunctions not attributable to faulty ammunition (see Sec. 5.6).
4.6.2 Reissue Firing Requirement
The pistol shall function with the ammunition used by the issuing department when tested in
accordance with Section 5.6.2. The department is free to increase the number of rounds to be fired. However, the minimum number of rounds that are required is equal to twice the maximum capacity of a magazine times the number of magazines issued with the pistol. For tests of 200 rounds or less, there shall be no more than one malfunction not attributable to faulty ammunition.

NIJ Compliance Testing for Autoloading Pistols

NIJ administers the NIJ Compliance Testing Program (NIJ CTP) to determine a specific pistol model’s compliance with NIJ Standard 0112.03, Autoloading Pistols for Police Officers, Revision A. The NIJ CTP helps ensure the pistols purchased and used by law enforcement agencies will perform as...

nij.ojp.gov

The Standard within the above link:

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/249929.pdf

They revise this occasionally, and there may be a revision from a year ago that I haven't yet seen.

 

Those are some pretty dismal minimum requirements. I would never trust a gun that could only pass that.

 

^^^ And here I get pissed when it burps one in 20,000 rounds....

 

I know, right?

 

If you're going to test 1000 rounds, you are only testing a specific ammo. If you are mixing ammo then all bets are inconclusive.

So it's a false test. Your action ammo of choice may not have the same statistics as your play ammo.

Just more food for thought.

 

If you're going to test 1000 rounds, you are only testing a specific ammo. If you are mixing ammo then all bets are inconclusive.

So it's a false test. Your action ammo of choice may not have the same statistics as your play ammo.

Just more food for thought.

Hell, considering some of the variations that may occur between various production runs of even the same ammunition, we're back to the premise of TANSTAAFL.

Confirm reliable feeding of whatever JHP tickles your fancy, and then hope for best ... while occasionally firing for confirmation of feeding reliability of whatever production lots of ammo you're currently using.

I used to grab random rounds from a box or two from some production lot and run a few magazine loads. Or just use to run some qual course-of-fire. No biggie. There are other things that can come along and potentially throw a monkey wrench into everything.

 

Malfunction drills. Equally as important (or more as they are infrequent - most people act surprised) as function drills.

Also a criteria for choosing the weapon platform (years back, I bought a K####h bullpup, that ejected forward and down ---- So cool, and nifty--- except it had no simple way to clear a malfunction. I sold it without ever taking it out of the box.)