Can you own 9mm over there.'08.

 

Depends on the scenario but overall it's hard to beat rifle power, especially if distances and cover/armor start becoming possibilities.

The only reason 9mm's like the HK MP5 ever were popular in military and LE was because they were full auto, and even with that they have fallen out of favor.

 

@kirgi08

I can choose from a pretty wide range of .223 and .308 semi auto rifles and I could chose from a limited range of 9mm (including Beretta Cx4) and 7.62x39 semi autos.

@ cowboy 1964

These are exactly my thoughts. Scenario.... if SHTF in Germany, I expect a lot of (illegal) pistols on the streets. Various calibers, most would be 9mm and .32 ACP.
On opposite side, I expect a lot of pistols and some AKs. On friendly side, I expect a lot of pistols and former WW II weapons, mostly Mauser K98 and some MP 38/40.

 

Between the two i would take the 223 / 5.56mm. It will work better for self defense and with proper ammunition for hunting as well

 

I don't know Germany, but I'd start with question-based decision making.
- What can I legally own and is it what I would consider acceptable and adequate?
- What guns can I easily/conveniently acquire and feed?
- What kinds of ammunition can I conveniently an legally own? (JHP, JSP, FMJ only, etc)
- What are my particular situational requirements/limitations? (IE, what might work very well for an apartment dweller may be a horrible choice for a farmer and vice-versa.)

On the specific question of 9mm vs 223 in a carbine, my primary personal defensive carbine is a 223 AR, set up pretty typically. But I also have 9mm carbines and I'd have absolutely no problem trusting one of them for close-range defensive use - if loaded thoughtfully. If all you can get is fmj ammo, I'd HUGELY recommend the 223 over the 9mm.

But if you can get better ammo, the 9mm carbine can do surprisingly well, as long as you realize it will never truly equal the 223 carbine. Some numbers I've clocked from one of my 9mm carbines; showing load, bullet weight, velocity in fps, and ft/lbs of energy, in descending order of muzzle energy. These are five-shot string averages. The corbon pow'rball stuff is listed twice simply because I initially didn't believe the results and so ran a second five-shot string to confirm.

CorBon Pow'rBall +P 100 1839.4 751.1
CorBon Pow'rBall +P 100 1812.8 729.5
Fed 115 +P+ 9BPLE 115 1615.8 666.5
Corbon 115 JHP 115 1609.2 661.1
WWB 115 JHP 115 1505.4 578.6
Blazer Brass 115 FMJ 115 1448.0 535.3
Corbon 125 JHP 125 1367.0 518.6
WWB 115 BEB 115 1341.3 459.3
WWB 115 FMJ 115 1323.8 447.4
UMC 115 FMJ 115 1311.0 438.8
Fed Hi-Shok 147 JHP 147 1147.8 429.9
Corbon 115 DPX 115 1249.6 398.6
WWB 147 JHP 147 1053.4 362.1
Fiocchi 158 FMJ-RN 158 907.6 288.9

Loaded with the Fiocchi 158-grain fmj, imo it'd be a very poor choice. But loaded with something better, it could do quite well. Many of them exceed 10mm handgun performance and several of them exceed .357 magnum power levels. Most people don't realize (and some simply refuse to believe) that a 'puny' 9mm carbine can approach the muzzle-energy levels of a .41 magnum revolver; yet two of the corbon loads and the 9BPLE are all solidly in that neighborhood. Will it ever equal a 223? No. But it's certainly nothing to scoff at.

Of the two, I'd recommend the 223. But if for some reason a 9mm carbine ends up in your hands, I wouldn't sweat it that much. Load it smart, put a good red dot on it, and then train and practice with it. And then train and practice with it some more. A hail of ~700 ft/lb bullets launched into your attacker's rib cage should really put a damper on their day. I know it would on mine.

 

My choice would be 7.62x39.

 

Both are good choices and both would be adequate for most civilian defense scenarios. Even in SHTF here, I wouldn't expect much body armor or many long distance encounters. Both have advantages and disadvantages. Like Quake said, you need to assess your own personal needs and capabilities. My 9mm SBR is plenty for me, but I'm not in Germany.

 

If given a choice I would carry rifle calibers in my rifles and pistol calibers in my pistols.

 

You will only have what ammo is on hand. 9MM is cheaper. And about the cheapest to reload. With a 9MM pistol, it simplifies ammo supply. Using cardboard military type boxes, you can put 1300 rounds in a 50 cal GI ammo can.

A gun with no ammo is about useless.

I have 4 9MM carbines.

 

In my opinion, 9mm carbines are not much more than toys.
9mm is a great handgun round, but real rifles deserve rifle chambering.

 

Respectfully have to disagree with jmohme, 147 grain 9mm hollowpoint out of a 16 inch rifle barrel is far from a toy, and will knock down just about the same as a .223 or a 5.56. In fact the 9mm outweighs it.
The advantage of carrying a rifle and pistol(s) using the same ammunition loaded in identical magazines (glock 17 round and 33 round) far outweighs having to choose which weapon you carry the most ammo for when you make a run for the hills with only the pack on your back.

 

I doubt that there is any difference in the real world. The real world is that in which a person will not learn and practice survival skills such as situational awareness, combat shooting, how to hunt, how to skin an animal, and they will never be in a survival situation. For those who do pay for/learn/practice those skills, it will also not make any difference.

Real world example. NY City Policemen. Multiple policemen shooting over 70 rounds in one engagement, with only one hit.

Real world research. Researcher finds than the majority of soldiers will not shoot at a human being.

Real world. Most people will not attack you except from ambush. Being aware of your surroundings is more critical than choosing a round based upon performance statistics.


Real world. If you have no idea of how to range distances and the elevation of the flight path of the round you shoot, it doesn't make any difference.

Real world. Two to the chest and then one to the head, controlled pairs, double taps, bullseye shooting (all of this from standing static) is bs when your engagement will be in the dark or under smokey conditions and you practice with a 9mm or a .223 only on sunny Saturday mornings (and avoid the rain and the snow.)

 

Good points.

 

I like to be able to "reach out and touch 'em" a little bit, so my vote goes to the 5.56.

 

I have a CX4 Storm that shares mags with my Beretta 92. Fantastic weapon and combo.

You've got to think of your use case. . . out in the open, I'd recommend a Tavor X95 (my personal choice).

But if you're in an urban setting and expect to be in and out of buildings, the CX4 is the way to go. You've just got to use the right tool for the right job.

As far as 7.62 vs. 5.56 goes. I really wanted to go with the 7.62. But realistically, you're a lot more likely to find 5.56. So I went with that. Plus the Tavor is great for getting in and out of vehicles.

Either way, the CX4 is the perfect HD weapon.

 

I'm undecided. What's your choice for SHTF?

Carbine, like the Beretta Cx4: Very handy, you can carry more rounds but limited in range and more ineffective against body armor and different cover.

I'm not sure, if I would regret the choice for 9mm and better go to .223 or 7.62x39.

I'm not pretending to be an expert of any kind, but the part in bold from the OP is just another question that might be considered more carefully depending on what is meant by "you can carry more rounds".

I'm not trying to imply that the OP is right or wrong; but anytime someone wants to "carry more rounds", I question how I would carry more rounds. Do I put a box of ammo in a backpack, or do I have loaded magazines in a backpack or on my belt?? If I'm carrying loaded magazines on my belt, what mag pouches am I using? etc. etc.

How much does a loaded 15, 20, or 30 round magazine weigh for the CX-4?
(A loaded Glock 17 round 9mm magazine weighs about 12 oz.)

How much does a loaded 30 round AR-15 magazine weigh?
(about 16 oz.)

 

In the real world almost all military and police now use 556 carbines instead of 9mm ones. More bang per squeeze.

 

9mm NATO M882 ball ammo is 12.6 grams each cartridge
5.56 NATO M855 ball ammo is 11.93 grams each cartridge

You are NOT going to carry more 9mm than 5.56 for the same weight (assuming you're shooting the NATO loads of each.)

Since weight of ammo is now a complete non-issue, other considerations will have to be the deciding factor.

 

9mm NATO M882 ball ammo is 12.6 grams each cartridge

5.56 NATO M855 ball ammo is 11.93 grams each cartridge


You are NOT going to carry more 9mm than 5.56 for the same weight (assuming you're shooting the NATO loads of each.)


Since weight of ammo is now a complete non-issue, other considerations will have to be the deciding factor.

+1. It's another example of seemingly logical, yet incorrect assumptions that are pretty prevalent when talking about pistol-caliber carbines.

In my opinion, 9mm carbines are not much more than toys.

9mm is a great handgun round, but real rifles deserve rifle chambering.

I agree that a rifle deserves a rifle round, as evidenced by my recommending the 556 over the 9mm above. But to think of them as a "toy" is quite wrong. Again, another example of the common, incorrect assumptions about pcc’s that one day with a chronograph easily corrects.

I do use my 9mm carbines in ‘toy’ kinds of ways, since they’re cheap to shoot and with subsonics they’re fun when suppressed; so in that sense, I get what you’re saying. But capability-wise, they’re certainly not toys at all, unless we’re willing to consider a .41 magnum revolver to be a toy. Because that’s inarguably the power levels that a thoughtfully-loaded 9mm carbine will reach.

Again, I prefer and recommend the 223 carbine over the 9mm carbine. But a 9mm carbine will surprise most folks when they walk away from the assumptions & stereotypes that surround pcc’s.

 

OP, a good 16'' AR can shoot under MOA at six hundred yards,
even with a medium wt barrel. That is what we have most of,
also have other guns but the AR is my favorite.

They are good for deer hunting too and also can shoot cast boolits
cheap and quiet.

I have tested this ammo and it is good to go, and cheap,
even put some in a five gallon bucket of water for three
days, still good to go. The brass is also great for reloading.

http://www.sgammo.com/product/223-5...o/1000-round-case-223-rem-55-grain-fmj-brass-case-non-magnetic-wolf-gold-ar-15-

What ever you get I would also get some molds for your gun, just
in case.

Here is some molds to think about,
For the 223,
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/dept/reloading/lead-bullet-casting/lee-moulds/-point-225-dia

This is for the 38/357 but also work great in the 9mm,
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690574/double-cavity-mould-358-125-rf

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690306/6-cavity-mold-358-125-rf

 

{Thread drift alert...}

This is for the 38/357 but also work great in the 9mm,
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690574/double-cavity-mould-358-125-rf

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690306/6-cavity-mold-358-125-rf

Happie2shoot - Big +1 on wolf gold ammo. As fmj stuff goes, it's top-end stuff at a surprising price.

Funny you mention the lee 38/125rf. It and their 9mm/124tc are what I cast most, using the same six-cavity molds you list. As you say, the 125-grain bullets are meant for .38/.357 but do surprisingly well in 9mm also. The six-cavity molds work very well and put out hundreds of bullets (maybe 500-600 or so?) per hour once things are heated up & running.

To keep things uber-simple with those kind of bulk handgun loads, I use the Alox/Johnson-wax lube approach; those bullets in the pic have been tumble-lubed & ready to load. Just discovered that recipe on another forum last year and it's a phenomenal time- and labor-saver.

{/thread_drift}

 

{Thread drift alert...}


Happie2shoot - Big +1 on wolf gold ammo. As fmj stuff goes, it's top-end stuff at a surprising price.

Funny you mention the lee 38/125rf. It and their 9mm/124tc are what I cast most, using the same six-cavity molds you list. As you say, the 125-grain bullets are meant for .38/.357 but do surprisingly well in 9mm also. The six-cavity molds work very well and put out hundreds of bullets (maybe 500-600 or so?) per hour once things are heated up & running.

To keep things uber-simple with those kind of bulk handgun loads, I use the Alox/Johnson-wax lube approach; those bullets in the pic have been tumble-lubed & ready to load. Just discovered that recipe on another forum last year and it's a phenomenal time- and labor-saver.

{/thread_drift}

I have loaded some of the 223 WG brass twenty times just to see
how good it is, it's good.

As per the Lee 125 RF, it is also great in the 357 sig, have shot them
at 1670FPS in a six inch LW conversion barrel in one of my G20s, three
shots in under an inch at 32 yards, the faster they are pushed the better
they shot.

I used LBT blue lube with HF red PC and a free check made from a
beer can and 800x powder.

Some say speed does not help much but it does, with the flat on that
boolit it is a good killer when pushed fast, like around 1300 fps contact
speed.

With the longer 9mm barrels it is easy to make major with that boolit.

In the 6.5''Rug BH 357 with a 9mm cylinder it can easy go over 1500
FPS and is a great killer, also have a six inch 9mm conversion barrel
for the G20, it kicks butt too.

 

If I wanted a real SHTF carbine/rifle I would get the 5.56. I want a 9mm carbine or AR pistol for fun, but they are too range limited.

Now for home defense, I could easily see a 9mm AR pistol with a light, laser and a "brace" just because houses have hallways, doorways, and stairways. And I ain't firing a 5.56 out of a 9" barrel without plugs and muffs. And maybe a bath towel wrapped around my head.

 

My SHTF choice would most likely be a Glock 17.

If I felt I wanted/needed a rifle, it would in .223/5.56

 

• A Keltec Sub2000 in a nylon briefcase is very low profile, quick to put into action, and adequately effective for most situations.

My choice is a 40S&W Gen2 that uses Glock magazines.

 

The thing I like about the 9mm carbine is I have the same ammo for both my pistol and carbine in my bugout bag, and it's widely available.

 

I have a 9mm AR. It is loaded with 147 gr JHP. It will get a new muzzle device when the HPA passes.

 

The 223/5.56 NATO is more powerful. But if you have a 9mm pistol and plenty of 9mm ammo then get a carbine...they are fun!
Mine is a 40 cal. .....but just as fun!

 

The 223/5.56 NATO is more powerful. But if you have a 9mm pistol and plenty of 9mm ammo then get a carbine...they are fun!
Mine is a 40 cal. .....but just as fun! View attachment 331463

What carbine is that?

 

For A SHTF Scenario, the 5.56 is the clear winner here. It's also been proven in Real war scenarios.

( Provided ammuntion is available to you..)

Good luck in Germany..