[OXMYX]

I won’t say you are wrong. Intent is big but if they ask his friend where he got it from, it goes downhill from there. Reality and what happens in a court room are two different things.

I don’t know if it’s a technical violation to build gun then sell it at any time.

Federal crime, FBI, lawyers, court, jail time. It's just that simple.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwfKjZ-Gfg4

 

[mac66]

It is not illegal to sell a homemade gun. It is not illegal to sell a gun that doesen't have a serial number. It is not illegal to sell a homemade gun. It is not illegal to sell a gun that doesn't have a serial number. It is not illegal. Did I mention that it is not illegal. I thought I would mention that it is not illegal.

It would be illegal ---ONLY--- if the gun was homemade with the intention of selling it, i.e, the person making it intended to sell it when they made it i.e, went into the business of making guns. In which case they would need a manufacturing license.

Otherwise...

...it is not illegal to sell a homemade gun. It is not illegal to sell a gun that doesn't have a serial number. It is not illegal.

 

[walkinguf61]

It is not illegal to sell a homemade gun. It is not illegal to sell a gun that doesen't have a serial number. It is not illegal to sell a homemade gun. It is not illegal to sell a gun that doesn't have a serial number. It is not illegal. Did I mention that it is not illegal. I thought I would mention that it is not illegal.

It would be illegal ---ONLY--- if the gun was homemade with the intention of selling it, i.e, the person making it intended to sell it when they made it i.e, went into the business of making guns. In which case they would need a manufacturing license.

Otherwise...

...it is not illegal to sell a homemade gun. It is not illegal to sell a gun that doesn't have a serial number. It is not illegal.

Like I said, I don’t know.

But take it from a prosecutor view. How do you show intent?

The man just made a P80. He sold it to a friend. Sounds like intent to sell.

Nowhere is the part his friend saw it , liked it, so the maker sold it to his friend but didn’t have intent to sell when he made it. If he made it, waited two years then sold it, it would be harder to “show” intent that he made it to sell.

 

[OXMYX]

Q: How must firearms be identified?

• You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:

1. By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch; and
   
   
2. By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:
   1. The model, if such designation has been made;
      
      
   2. The caliber or gauge;
      
      
   3. Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the same of the foreign manufacturer or maker;
      
      
   4. In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the firearm; and
      
      
   5. In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.

 

[686 AR15 G17Fan]

It is not illegal to sell a homemade gun. It is not illegal to sell a gun that doesen't have a serial number. It is not illegal to sell a homemade gun. It is not illegal to sell a gun that doesn't have a serial number. It is not illegal. Did I mention that it is not illegal. I thought I would mention that it is not illegal.

It would be illegal ---ONLY--- if the gun was homemade with the intention of selling it, i.e, the person making it intended to sell it when they made it i.e, went into the business of making guns. In which case they would need a manufacturing license.

Otherwise...

...it is not illegal to sell a homemade gun. It is not illegal to sell a gun that doesn't have a serial number. It is not illegal.

I'm confused. What exactly are you trying to say mac ?

 

[Borg Warner]

I've been researching a bit and I cannot come to a definitive conclusion as to what the requirements are (if any) regarding selling a completed P80 frame to an individual.

I did not make the P80 for resale purposes, I just have a friend that wants to buy it from me.

Can any of you shed some light on this?

Yes. How well do you know this friend that you night be selling it to? Is he someone you can trust with your life? Or is he someone who, if he ever got in any kind of trouble with the gun, would point the finger at you?

Tell your friend to build his own gun. You could even show him how it's done. But whoever builds it can't legally sell it.

 

[cyphertext]

Federal crime, FBI, lawyers, court, jail time. It's just that simple.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwfKjZ-Gfg4

Not even close to being the same... He knowingly sold to people who could not legally own. He also built with the intention to sell, so he was an unlicensed dealer.

 

[cyphertext]

Like I said, I don’t know.

But take it from a prosecutor view. How do you show intent?

The man just made a P80. He sold it to a friend. Sounds like intent to sell.

Nowhere is the part his friend saw it , liked it, so the maker sold it to his friend but didn’t have intent to sell when he made it. If he made it, waited two years then sold it, it would be harder to “show” intent that he made it to sell.

How do you show intent? Does he have a history of selling firearms, or was this a one off type deal? The ATF uses the term "engaged in the business"... the selling of one firearm would not meet the definition of "engaged in the business".

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/can-individual-now-manufacture-these-firearms-and-sell-them

 

[cbird77]

Wipe it off really good first and hand it over with gloves on.


Kidding - just keep it, it's not worth worrying about.

 

[China boy]

I would not sell it. What profit would you make? Is that worth possible jail time and loosing your ability to own firearms for the rest of your life?

 

[45caldan]

If you really don’t want it sell him everything but the frame.
Slide, bbl, internals....
KEEP the frame or destroy it.

 

[mmcbeat]

Lots and lots of informative and misinformation in this thread. The problem is separating the two.

 

[fistagon]

Not even close to being the same... He knowingly sold to people who could not legally own. He also built with the intention to sell, so he was an unlicensed dealer.

Yeah, this is no where compared to what I’m considering doing. I’m selling one gun, that has 700 rounds through it and was bought and built well over a year ago. I’m not trying to enterprise here or sell to people (i.e. a felon) that I know cannot own a firearm.

Speaking on intent, if it came down to a trial...I could prove when I bought the frame by producing the receipt showing when I bought it, along with all the emails I exchanged back and forth with Polymer 80 when I was building it long ago getting replacement rails and jigs.

I could easily prove my position.

 

[Borg Warner]

The law is not clear. And the law is not clear to local Law enforcement. An neither is the law clear to federal law enforcement except that with the ATF, the law is whatever they say it is and they have the authority to create law even though supposedly only congress has the power to do that.

That law is not clear either. We are expected to abide by the law or be severely punished but our government does not always have to abide by the law and that's just a very sad fact of life.

By law. any rules passed by government agencies that have the authority of law are supposed to be reviewed and approved by congress. but many members of congress (Democrats) do not lik ethis law and have been trying to repeal it and congress as a whole has not been dilligent in upholding this law and judges have been reluctant to approve the review of certain statutes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Review_Act

https://www.nationalreview.com/2017...ew.com/2017/06/congressional-review-act-finally-some-accountability-washington/

 

[Borg Warner]

Yeah, this is no where compared to what I’m considering doing. I’m selling one gun, that has 700 rounds through it and was bought and built well over a year ago. I’m not trying to enterprise here or sell to people (i.e. a felon) that I know cannot own a firearm.

Speaking on intent, if it came down to a trial...I could prove when I bought the frame by producing the receipt showing when I bought it, along with all the emails I exchanged back and forth with Polymer 80 when I was building it long ago getting replacement rails and jigs.

I could easily prove my position.

"Speaking on intent, if it came down to a trial...I could prove when I bought the frame by producing the receipt showing when I bought it, along with all the emails I exchanged back and forth with Polymer 80 when I was building it long ago getting replacement rails and jigs.

I could easily prove my position."

You could, IF you could afford a good lawyer and even then you might lose even if the lawyer would work for free if you had to go up against the BATFE. Otherwise it could cost millions to go up against the Feds.

But do you really want to take that chance? Seems like you do. Or maybe you intend to represent yourself if it went to court.

They say that a man who represents himself in court has a fool for a client and there have been very few exceptions that prove that rule.

 

[JMS]

Subscribed

 

[fistagon]

"Speaking on intent, if it came down to a trial...I could prove when I bought the frame by producing the receipt showing when I bought it, along with all the emails I exchanged back and forth with Polymer 80 when I was building it long ago getting replacement rails and jigs.

I could easily prove my position."

You could, IF you could afford a good lawyer and even then you might lose even if the lawyer would work for free if you had to go up against the BATFE. Otherwise it could cost millions to go up against the Feds.

But do you really want to take that chance? Seems like you do. Or maybe you intend to represent yourself if it went to court.

They say that a man who represents himself in court has a fool for a client and there have been very few exceptions that prove that rule.

Look, all I’m stating is that I could prove that I am not trying to engage in the manufacturing and sale of multiple built P80 lowers. And yes I have attorney friends that would take this on for me IF it came to that.

I’m also wanting to push this question of legality because 1. I want to stay within the law 2. To exercise my freedom to do as a I wish with a firearm that is perfectly legal to own and sell as an individual 3. Hopefully shed light on this issue and help others understand what is possible, legal and lawful by asking all of you to post in this thread with your thoughts or knowledge. Opinion or otherwise.

 

[Jim Watson]

In my lay opinion, you are legal to sell a used DIY on federal level. I don't know about your state and city restrictions.
I think it would be smart to put a serial number on it so your friend would have something to enter when he trades it to a dealer or has to paper it under the forthcoming UBC restriction on private sale.
And if you don't think UBCs are coming along, you are beyond my help.

 

[mac66]

The burden is on the gov't to prove that the OP intended to sell the gun when he built it. There is no intent, therefore no crime. Did I mention that it is not illegal to sell a homemade gun or one that has no serial number?

The mistake the OP made is asking for legal advice on the internet.

 

[legalsten]

There a tons of older shotguns that do not have a serial number . Several made before 1968 never had a serial number . I had a Winchester model 37 that had no number anywhere and I have a couple now that don't have them. Not sure how they will fall under any upcoming laws that might pass .