[geo57]

Has anyone here carried / tried the S&B .45acp 230 gr. JHP as far as function testing it, perhaps running it over a Chrony or even ran any gel / wetpack tests for penetration & expansion ? This load from S&B is available. I couldn't find a Youtube video on it. Thanks.

 

[Stevekozak]

No, but I have shot a lot of S&B FMJ in .45 acp and it is good stuff! I like the brass for reloading as well.

 

[Krugerand]

S&B makes great .45 acp fmj ammo, I wouldn't hesitate to try out the jhp's. Their ammo supply here gets spotty sometimes, that may be why you haven't found much info on it.

 

[tall terry]

The ammo runs fine, and is accurate,, generally,, in my experience the hollow points do not open or open far less than advertised,,

 

[geo57]

The ammo runs fine, and is accurate,, generally,, in my experience the hollow points do not open or open far less than advertised,,

That's what I was looking for . Thanks.

 

[geo57]

Thanks all for the input. I am familiar with the S&B line having used the 230 gr. FMJ .45acp in my 1911A1 and the 180 gr. SP 7.62x54r on deer. I was just inquiring about the load I asked about for consideration in an incoming G 21.

 

[Critch]

I guess I'm simplistic, but I don't think that there is much difference, in a practical sense, from getting hit by a .45 ACP JHP or a .45 ACP cast lead bullet, all other factors being equal. S&B seems to be good ammo, I shoot it often, as I do good old Winchester White box 230 grain FMJ.

 

[LandCruiser40]

I have shot the S&B 230 grain HP .45acp in both my LE trade-in G21 and my SIG P220. No reliability issues and as accurate as ball rounds.

 

[enblock]

its a little slow compared to a lot of defensive/duty ammo, but shoots to the same point of aim as 230gr ball, also has pretty much the same recoil. Its a good training round, and could be pressed into a defensive role if you don't have anything else, but don't expect stellar expansion. You'll be lucky to get much or any expansion through clothing or barriers

 

[TheDreadnought]

Has anyone here carried / tried the S&B .45acp 230 gr. JHP as far as function testing it, perhaps running it over a Chrony or even ran any gel / wetpack tests for penetration & expansion ? This load from S&B is available. I couldn't find a Youtube video on it. Thanks.

The beautiful part of .45 ACP is that you’re not as dependent on JHPs to work perfectly for the ammo to get the job done.

My picks are always HST, GD, or GS in that order. Ranger-T or GS-BB would be great too, but I don’t see them around much. But most any .45 ACP will resolve the problem.

 

[enblock]

The beautiful part of .45 ACP is that you’re not as dependent on JHPs to work perfectly for the ammo to get the job done.

My picks are always HST, GD, or GS in that order. Ranger-T or GS-BB would be great too, but I don’t see them around much. But most any .45 ACP will resolve the problem.

45 ball really isn't great at anything

 

[TheDreadnought]

45 ball really isn't great at anything

It’s a nice big bullet with great penetration against soft targets. It’s not bad at all.

As good as a quality JHP? Of course not. But it will stop most threats effectively.

 

[enblock]

It’s a nice big bullet with great penetration against soft targets. It’s not bad at all.

As good as a quality JHP? Of course not. But it will stop most threats effectively.

45 ball actually often under penetrates in real life

it sucks at defeating barriers

and it is a relatively ineffective stopper

 

[TheDreadnought]

45 ball actually often under penetrates in real life

it sucks at defeating barriers

and it is a relatively ineffective stopper

Please link your sources for .45 ball under penetrating. That may be the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard in a caliber thread.

It does struggle with barriers, but that’s less of a concern for civilians who aren’t likely to be shooting into cars.

It does fine as a stopper.

Seriously, please provide evidence for your under penetration claim. If it’s out there, I’d like to see it.

 

[8X8]

I would look for HST, GS or GD in that order. I bought a lot of GS 185 +P and 230, both are bonded. HST is the only non-bonded HP’s I like.

 

[enblock]

Please link your sources for .45 ball under penetrating. That may be the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard in a caliber thread.

It does struggle with barriers, but that’s less of a concern for civilians who aren’t likely to be shooting into cars.

It does fine as a stopper.

Seriously, please provide evidence for your under penetration claim. If it’s out there, I’d like to see it.

45 hardball has a tendency to under penetrate in large bones like the skull and sternum. It also tends to deflect off of round surfaces like human skulls and ribs.

every major conflict using 45 acp saw it to be a poor stopper.

WW1, WW2, and Korea all showed how it was a poor performer.

Nearly every study conducted since the 40s showed that 45 acp FMJ is a poor performer.

Police and civilian data shows that the 45 acp is a poor stopper. An example of this, for as much as its been looked down upon, Marshall and Sanow's data shows that 45 acp, 9mm, and 380 FMJ all perform about the same

Ask any coroner who has autopsied a shooting victim, or any surgeon who has removed bullets from shooting victims; they will all tell you that there is no observable difference between 380, 9mm, 40sw, and 45 acp fmj wounding

just ask this guy how he feels about 45 ball

 

[TheDreadnought]

45 hardball has a tendency to under penetrate in large bones like the skull and sternum. It also tends to deflect off of round surfaces like human skulls and ribs.

every major conflict using 45 acp saw it to be a poor stopper.

WW1, WW2, and Korea all showed how it was a poor performer.

Nearly every study conducted since the 40s showed that 45 acp FMJ is a poor performer.

Police and civilian data shows that the 45 acp is a poor stopper. An example of this, for as much as its been looked down upon, Marshall and Sanow's data shows that 45 acp, 9mm, and 380 FMJ all perform about the same

Ask any coroner who has autopsied a shooting victim, or any surgeon who has removed bullets from shooting victims; they will all tell you that there is no observable difference between 380, 9mm, 40sw, and 45 acp fmj wounding

just ask this guy how he feels about 45 ball
View attachment 1011784

You’ve made many assertions.

You’ve linked to no studies or evidence.

Common accounts out of the wars actually point to .45 hardball being quite an effective stopper. So evidence is needed to support the idea that it is not.

Please link to any actual studies or tests to back up any of your claims.

You’re coming off like a caliber war fan boy with a hard on to prove how bad .45 is… but with nothing but gun store talk and random statements backed up by zero evidence.

Meanwhile, every gel test I’ve seen of .45 hardball gives 100% penetration.

As far as Marshall and Sanow, there are significant data problems with that study and it’s been largely discredited.

HOWEVER… even if it was accurate, it also doesn’t support your argument. Because it says .45 is just as good (or better) than most of the alternatives. Which flies in the face of your statement about it being a poor stopper relative to other options. So the only evidence you’ve cited, in addition to being debunked, also doesn’t support your argument.

As far as your pic goes… that’s not evidence of anything. Could have been fired at a long distance. Could have been a ricochet. Could have been an almost-squib. It’s just a picture version of a gun-store story.

Link to some actual evidence. I’m open to it if there is anything to back up your random claims.

 

[enblock]

You’ve made many assertions.

You’ve linked to no studies or evidence.

Common accounts out of the wars actually point to .45 hardball being quite an effective stopper. So evidence is needed to support the idea that it is not.

Please link to any actual studies or tests to back up any of your claims.

You’re coming off like a caliber war fan boy with a hard on to prove how bad .45 is… but with nothing but gun store talk and random statements backed up by zero evidence.

Meanwhile, every gel test I’ve seen of .45 hardball gives 100% penetration.

As far as Marshall and Sanow, there are significant data problems with that study and it’s been largely discredited.

HOWEVER… even if it was accurate, it also doesn’t support your argument. Because it says .45 is just as good (or better) than most of the alternatives. Which flies in the face of your statement about it being a poor stopper relative to other options. So the only evidence you’ve cited, in addition to being debunked, also doesn’t support your argument.

As far as your pic goes… that’s not evidence of anything. Could have been fired at a long distance. Could have been a ricochet. Could have been an almost-squib. It’s just a picture version of a gun-store story.

Link to some actual evidence. I’m open to it if there is anything to back up your random claims.

first of all, what wars prove handguns to be effective stopers? Very few people are killed in wartime with handguns because they are all poor stoppers, and most of the killing is being done with artillery and rifle fire.

Second of all, you haven't posted any sources either, and your argument is relying on gun shop lore. My understanding of the issue is based on my experience of shooting
a **** ton of animals, and the images I've seen from autopsies, as well as the testimony of my son, who has removed what propbab;y amounts to hundreds of bullets from living people over his career.

And yes, my evidence is mostly anecdotal because there are no real good, available studies that show how effective (or ineffective ball ammo is in general)
All of the "stopping power" studies, like Marshall and Sanow's, have been heavily criticized as being embellished or outright false.

My evidence is based on asking my son, who is a trauma surgeon at Advocate Christ Medical Center. Its one of the few level 1 trauma centers in the Chicago area, so he sees quite a few gunshot patients. The majority are shot with FMJ. He says that none of the calibers, be it 380 or 45 acp, produce noticeably different wounds. They all poke equally size holes in people, and surprisingly many don't exit, particularly the 380 and 45.

Ask any surgeon or coroner who removes bullets from bodies, they all poke pretty much identically sized holes in people.

Also logically speaking, 45 acp hardball performs poorly through hard barriers, No one refutes this. Hard bone, like a skull or a sternum, or an extended forearm is a hard barrier. 45 acp has a hard time penetrating hard barriers, and its seen in real life, where 45 acp hard ball has a hard time penetrating living bone.

And in Marshals data, 230 gr 45 acp ball has a 1.8% higher stopping percentage than 9mm 115gr FMJ, which is by all accounts an incredibly poor performer. So if Marshal's data has any validity, it supports my point.

and finally, I am not a 9mm apologist, my EDC is a gen 2 glock 21 loaded with 230gr +p HST

 

[TheDreadnought]

first of all, what wars prove handguns to be effective stopers? Very few people are killed in wartime with handguns because they are all poor stoppers, and most of the killing is being done with artillery and rifle fire.

Second of all, you haven't posted any sources either, and your argument is relying on gun shop lore. My understanding of the issue is based on my experience of shooting
a **** ton of animals, and the images I've seen from autopsies, as well as the testimony of my son, who has removed what propbab;y amounts to hundreds of bullets from living people over his career.

And yes, my evidence is mostly anecdotal because there are no real good, available studies that show how effective (or ineffective ball ammo is in general)
All of the "stopping power" studies, like Marshall and Sanow's, have been heavily criticized as being embellished or outright false.

My evidence is based on asking my son, who is a trauma surgeon at Advocate Christ Medical Center. Its one of the few level 1 trauma centers in the Chicago area, so he sees quite a few gunshot patients. The majority are shot with FMJ. He says that none of the calibers, be it 380 or 45 acp, produce noticeably different wounds. They all poke equally size holes in people, and surprisingly many don't exit, particularly the 380 and 45.

Ask any surgeon or coroner who removes bullets from bodies, they all poke pretty much identically sized holes in people.

Also logically speaking, 45 acp hardball performs poorly through hard barriers, No one refutes this. Hard bone, like a skull or a sternum, or an extended forearm is a hard barrier. 45 acp has a hard time penetrating hard barriers, and its seen in real life, where 45 acp hard ball has a hard time penetrating living bone.

And in Marshals data, 230 gr 45 acp ball has a 1.8% higher stopping percentage than 9mm 115gr FMJ, which is by all accounts an incredibly poor performer. So if Marshal's data has any validity, it supports my point.

and finally, I am not a 9mm apologist, my EDC is a gen 2 glock 21 loaded with 230gr +p HST

So, still no evidence you can point to to support any of your assertions.

As far as your son goes, this, once again, this actually REFUTES your argument instead of supporting it.

If .380 - .45 are all the same that doesn’t make .45 hardball a poor stopper. It makes it the same as the others.

Also, I’ll point out that he can assess wound channels… but that doesn’t make him an expert on whether something stopped the threat or not. Was he there when the person was shot? Did he see the effectiveness of the hit on the target and whether the target stopped fighting or not? No. He’s just at the hospital sewing up the hole after the fact.


YOU are the one that brought up Marshall and Sanow as support for your argument. I said it was false and pointed out it didn’t support your argument anyway.

Now you admit that its false, and you admit that it shows shows .45 hardball as a slightly better stopper than 9mm. So either way, why are you bringing it up… again.

Finally, why are you shooting so many animals with .45 hardball? Are you some kind of sadist?

 

[G21.4Me]

45 hardball has a tendency to under penetrate in large bones like the skull and sternum. It also tends to deflect off of round surfaces like human skulls and ribs.

Every major conflict using 45 ACP saw it to be a poor stopper. WW1, WW2, and Korea all showed how it was a poor performer. Nearly every study conducted since the 40s showed that 45 ACP FMJ is a poor performer.

Police and civilian data shows that the 45 ACP is a poor stopper. An example of this, for as much as its been looked down upon, Marshall and Sanow's data shows that 45 ACP, 9mm, and 380 FMJ all perform about the same

Ask any coroner who has autopsied a shooting victim, or any surgeon who has removed bullets from shooting victims; they will all tell you that there is no observable difference between 380, 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP/FMJ wounding.

Wow! The shock value of that gruesome photo is almost enough to convince me to the validity of what you have said. Then I stopped to reflect that I have more than 50 years of experience with 1911 pattern pistols and 45 ACP ammunition—Much of it 230 grain military hardball. ALL of which say that your comments and conclusions cannot be true.

As shocking, as ostensibly appealing, as your comments (and photo) are none of this changes the fact that the facts are specious, and the conclusion have been drawn in error. Look first of all, Marshall and Sanow's ballistic data has been repeatedly shown to be wrong—Wrong!

Second, anecdotal evidence drawn from multiple instances of bullets being fired under numerous differing circumstances, as well as through a wide variety of varying conditions and materials does NOT constitute reliable evidence. For every instance of presumed failure that you can show me, I can, in return, show you an instance of overwhelming success.

Whether it's steel targets, where 230 grain 45 ACP hardball will 'dust-off' 9x19mm anything every single time, or real world CQB pistol gunfighting, where 9mm has repeatedly failed to stop while 45 ACP projectiles have often stopped the fight and/or taken an opponent out with just one or two fired rounds, the historical fact is that 45 ACP is simply a better cartridge to use for combat handgunning.

For whatever it's worth: Those of us who've been doing these things for any length of time are aware that there are numerous instances of complete failure-to-stop from just about every handgun caliber at or below 45 Long Colt (which is a difficult caliber to handle and shoot straight in a gunfight.)