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Discussion starter · #1 · (Edited)
It's late, but I wanted to share results of some testing I did today.

Short version:

Image


Image


Clear Ballistics FBI block (16 x 6 x 6).

Image


With penetration measurements

Image


Equipment used

Image


Block and camera setup

Image


It was meant initially as a G42 380 ammunition test with 9mm Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P through different length barrels as the control.

Image


Conclusions:
  • To get 380 to penetrate adequately, the trade off is teeny bullets without much expansion.
  • Speer Gold Dots are interesting. It seems like the higher velocity initial impact, the more the petals are forced outwards which leads to a larger surface area but the trade off of reduced penetration. There is a distinct difference to how the Gold Dots looked when shot through different length barrels.
  • I was surprised at the marked difference in size of a JHP 380 vs 9mm. It's pronounced enough that I think I might start carrying my G26 again instead of the G42....
EDIT 3/2/2017: LINK to Fruit Shooting thread
http://www.glocktalk.com/threads/quick-ballistics-test-fruit-shooting-with-g42-and-g34.1654547/

Updated below:


EDIT 3/18/2017: Added Xtreme Penetrator testing
 
Thanks for the info.

In the 9mm if you want more FPS, Underwood is
the answer,

https://underwoodammo.com/product-category/pistol-ammunition/

This is what I got,

UW, 9mm, 115GD JHP+P+ AND 147GD JHP+P+
115GR.+P+
p95,,,,,,,,,,G27/LW,,,,,,P85,,,,,,,,,G2O/LW,,,,RBH with 9mm cylinder
3.875'',,,,,,,,4.060'',,,,,,,,4.5'',,,,,,,,,,,,6'',,,,,,,,,,,,,,,6.5''
1443fps,,,1420fps,,,,,1461fps,,,,,1539fps,,,,1613fps
147+P+
1126fps,,,,1140fps,,,,,1123fps,,,,,1211fps,,,,1224fp
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
It was interesting. It was a 16" FBI gelatin block. The 380 FMJs went through the entire block. So penetration wasn't an issue, but the holes and cavities were very small.

Two of the G26 Gold Dots with the expansion seen above also went through the whole block.

All of the G34 and JRC rounds stopped at around 13-14" with the full expansion.

I might do a little denim testing next.
 
It's late, but I wanted to share results of some testing I did today.

Short version:

Image


Image


Clear Ballistics FBI block (16 x 6 x 6).

Image


With penetration measurements

Image


Equipment used

Image


Block and camera setup

Image


It was meant initially as a G42 380 ammunition test with 9mm Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P through different length barrels as the control.

Image


Conclusions:
  • To get 380 to penetrate adequately, the trade off is teeny bullets without much expansion.
  • Speer Gold Dots are interesting. It seems like the higher velocity initial impact, the more the petals are forced outwards which leads to a larger surface area but the trade off of reduced penetration. There is a distinct difference to how the Gold Dots looked when shot through different length barrels.
  • I was surprised at the marked difference in size of a JHP 380 vs 9mm. It's pronounced enough that I think I might start carrying my G26 again instead of the G42....
^ That would be a good move.
 
Your tests do not inspire confidence in the .380ACP. There should be absolutely no surprise at the results.

It is surprising how easily some convince themselves that .380ACP is a competent choice for a self-defense round. There are rare times when circumstances may force the carry of a .380ACP handgun, but it is unwise to regularly rely on one as a carry weapon.

The G42 (and 25 and 28) are Glock's most unsuitable "weapons" for serious purposes due to the round they fire, just as you have shown here.

TANSTAAFL! :)
 
An interesting addition to your test data would be the measured muzzle velocity and calculated muzzle energy of each ammo type from each weapon.
 
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Discussion starter · #9 ·
An interesting addition to your test data would be the measured muzzle velocity and calculated muzzle energy of each ammo type from each weapon.
Interesting, but academic. There have been plenty of people who have done those tests. But for me it doesn't serve a practical purpose and takes time. These are the firearms I have available to me in a personal defense / home defense scenario. Unless there was an unexpected result that would lead me to believe one of my firearms was defective / malfunctioning the velocities are what they are.

Where it would be useful is if I was comparing different 9mm or 380 guns with similar barrel lengths. But here, barrel lengths correlate roughly to velocities within an ammunition type. And that's good enough for practical purposes for me.

My main goals are to be as educated as possible for the scenarios I might possibly encounter so I can make the safest choices for my family and I.

I like testing because bigger isn't always better and knowing what the minimum and maximum for size and penetration are could be useful. I don't want to hurt anyone in general and definitely don't want to hurt any innocent people inadvertently.

I really had no idea what to expect from the Carbine in 9mm. I actually expected it to blow out the back of the gel block, but the only rounds that did that were the less expanded ones from the G26. Surprised me and makes it a promising home defense firearm (if it doesn't clog with denim or drywall).

Next, I'd like to see the difference between the 9mm Carbine and a 223 soft point. I've kind of ruled out the 223 as a home defense round, but we shall see. I want to be an educated user, I feel it allows me to make better choices about the trade off of other people's safety and my own (a very important balance IMHO).
 
Interesting, but academic. There have been plenty of people who have done those tests. But for me it doesn't serve a practical purpose and takes time. These are the firearms I have available to me in a personal defense / home defense scenario. Unless there was an unexpected result that would lead me to believe one of my firearms was defective / malfunctioning the velocities are what they are.

Where it would be useful is if I was comparing different 9mm or 380 guns with similar barrel lengths. But here, barrel lengths correlate roughly to velocities within an ammunition type. And that's good enough for practical purposes for me.

My main goals are to be as educated as possible for the scenarios I might possibly encounter so I can make the safest choices for my family and I.

I like testing because bigger isn't always better and knowing what the minimum and maximum for size and penetration are could be useful. I don't want to hurt anyone in general and definitely don't want to hurt any innocent people inadvertently.

I really had no idea what to expect from the Carbine in 9mm. I actually expected it to blow out the back of the gel block, but the only rounds that did that were the less expanded ones from the G26. Surprised me and makes it a promising home defense firearm (if it doesn't clog with denim or drywall).

Next, I'd like to see the difference between the 9mm Carbine and a 223 soft point. I've kind of ruled out the 223 as a home defense round, but we shall see. I want to be an educated user, I feel it allows me to make better choices about the trade off of other people's safety and my own (a very important balance IMHO).
Just like many other calibers the 223 can do many thing,
that includes a lot or a little penetration.

A 40 to 50 gr hp designed to expand in smaller varmints
will not penetrate much.

This bullet shot at 3000 fps into the side of a 160 to a 180
lb mule deer at 125 yards will break a rib going in, punch
through both lungs and break a rib going out, probably around
14''.

That same bullet will also go in behind the shoulder and come
to rest up in the neck, just under the hide, probably around
18'', we should have measured it.
 
It's late, but I wanted to share results of some testing I did today.

Short version:
Really interesting test. Thank you. You might check out Shooting The Bull review about the ARX in both 380 and 9mm. (Out of 3inch barrel) The ARX had a high velocity due to the polymer/copper bullet is very light. The flutes on the ARX did a very acceptable job relative the
wound channel. I liked the tendency to tumble for a defensive round. Polycase's first mission was developing a polymer case in place so the bad guys in the middle east couldn't collect spent brass and reload it. The polycase can't be reloaded. The test of the poly cased ammo by the American Rifleman was impressive. However, Polycase has not as yet released ammo with both the polymer case and the polymer fluted bullet. It's be nice for saving weight in a pistol with
16 rounds. I have a G26 and its a shooter. Nice results regarding your tests.
I never dismiss any breaking new anything out of hand. Many did the G17 "Plastic gun".
We need some real world results but the ARX idea looks good. Lehigh Defense has a similar
bullet in solid brass that is fluted. I think Lehigh may have been first?
PoliViejo
Image


Image


Clear Ballistics FBI block (16 x 6 x 6).

Image


With penetration measurements

Image


Equipment used

Image


Block and camera setup

Image


It was meant initially as a G42 380 ammunition test with 9mm Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P through different length barrels as the control.

Image


Conclusions:
  • To get 380 to penetrate adequately, the trade off is teeny bullets without much expansion.
  • Speer Gold Dots are interesting. It seems like the higher velocity initial impact, the more the petals are forced outwards which leads to a larger surface area but the trade off of reduced penetration. There is a distinct difference to how the Gold Dots looked when shot through different length barrels.
  • I was surprised at the marked difference in size of a JHP 380 vs 9mm. It's pronounced enough that I think I might start carrying my G26 again instead of the G42....
 
Nothing there I did not expect except I thought the round out the 16 inch barrel might have broken up. Numbers are consistent with other tests but having a comparison picture there lays it out pretty well. I don't think I have ever seen that before.

Common sense should tell you that a bullet is going to expand to less size and have less penetration than a bullet a third again in weight that is traveling almost 20% faster. More energy to push expansion and penetration and more bullet to expand. Common sense is also going to say you need a bigger gun to shoot that round.
 
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Your tests do not inspire confidence in the .380ACP. There should be absolutely no surprise at the results.

It is surprising how easily some convince themselves that .380ACP is a competent choice for a self-defense round. There are rare times when circumstances may force the carry of a .380ACP handgun, but it is unwise to regularly rely on one as a carry weapon.

The G42 (and 25 and 28) are Glock's most unsuitable "weapons" for serious purposes due to the round they fire, just as you have shown here.

TANSTAAFL! :)
I disagree, this is a comment from another internet story on the Glock 42:

"Below I will explain my choice for carrying the 42 as well as a long rant about how I hate when people talk about stopping power.

I shot both, and the 9mm was too snappy. In simulated self defense scenarios, the Glock 42 in .380 proved to be more effective in my hands. If you are considering the 42 or 43, please try shooting both. Besides being more effective, the Glock 42 was much more fun and comfortable to shoot compared to the 43 and other small .380's.

For example, I have a Ruger LCP and I really don't like shooting that gun, its just not comfortable and I have a hard time hitting targets farther than the 7 yards self defense standard. With the Glock 42, I'm shooting the same targets that I shoot at with my Glock 19 and Ruger Mark II and its not snappy or annoying to shoot.

As far as "stopping power" goes, understand that stopping power in handguns is always lacking unless you are talking about rounds are the .45ACP range and larger. Much of the stopping power argument is based on people like me and you arguing at ranges and on the internet. Massad Ayoob did a comparative study which found small but statistically significant differences with some larger calibers, but without controlling for who was shooting and who was being shot, those numbers are hard to apply to real world situations (i.e. maybe 9mm is more likely to stop an attacker than .22lr because trained police officers are the ones shooting the 9mm and its grandpa with cataracts shooting at robbers with his 10/22).

Most attackers will run when they see you are armed. Out of those that don't run, most will run or surrender after being shot. Of the 0.001% of attackers who continue to fight after being shot and must be physically incapacitated to be stopped, you need to hit the heart, brain, spinal cord, or femur to stop them. This requires luck or good shot placement. In those cases, a larger caliber only gives you a small advantage and that advantage is going to be eliminated in most shooters anyway because unless you are an extensively trained and experienced shooter (i.e. military designated Marksman), you are going to shoot slower and less accurately with more recoil. In those cases, most people (including myself) are better off with a more manageable firearm that they can deliver multiple shots quickly and accurately with, that is what is going to help you hit one of those vital areas, not a bigger bullet.

Basically my argument against being concerned about stopping power is that when you take the odds of being attacked and multiply them by the odds of failing to stop an attacker where you would have been able to stop him with a more powerful round, you will find that you are far more likely to accidentally shoot and kill yourself than be killed as a result of not having enough firepower.

The most important things to consider for self defense carry are that you have a 99.999999999...% reliable combination of gun and ammo and that you can consistently draw your weapon and fire rounds quickly and accurately into your attacker. The round you use to do this doesn't matter, and the advantages of a larger round will in 99% of cases be mitigated by the downsides (more recoil causing decreased rate of fire and accuracy, greater chance of over travel and harming an innocent bystander, greater chance of the fleeing criminal you shot dying (make your legal troubles much worse), more hearing damage (yes I know that is a small consideration in terms of self defense), larger/heavier/harder to conceal gun that also has a greater chance of snagging on something, greater change of death if the attackers gets your gun and uses it against you...the list goes on).

The point of my rant is to hopefully convince at least one person that which caliber to carry should be a choice based on the gun in which you are most confidently able to conceal, draw, and fire quickly and accurately with quick and accurate follow up shots, and that you carry a reliable gun/ammo combination. The Glock 42 was perfect for me for this purpose, it was small enough to conceal easily but large enough to get a good grip, has the legendary Glock reliability, was affordable (blue label pricing at least), and compared to the Glock 19 I usually carry and to the Glock 43 I also tested, I was able to perform much better in simulated self defense tests with the 42 than the 43 and my performance with the 42 compared to the 19 was very similar while coming in a smaller and lighter package.

Stopping power looks legit on paper, but in the real world it just
doesn't seem to have a noticeable effect. The only instances where more
firepower might have helped someone involve firefights between police
and criminals. In those cases, the criminal is fighting for his life
against armed and trained police officers so yea, they will continue to
fight as long as possible because at that point they know if caught
their life is over anyway. In the civilian world, criminals have no
reason to fight an armed civilian. A mugger or robber has no vested
interest in you specifically and would much rather run away and try
mugging/raping someone else or robbing another house than try their luck
against a would be victim armed with a gun.

In short, there are about 10,000 homicides a year. Most gun deaths in the US are caused by the .22lr. The CDC estimates 250,000-3 million justified instances of self defense involving a firearm occur every year in the US (most of which involve no injuries, adding validity to my point that most attackers flee when they realize you are armed). Even though there have been millions of self defense instances involving firearms since the internet was born, I have searched the internet and been unable to find a single example of a civilian being successfully victimized after using a small caliber firearm against their attacker. In fact, the whole stopping power obsession was based off one single shootout between police and criminals in the 1980's where the criminals were shot multiple times and continued fighting."
 
Discussion starter · #14 ·
I did look at the Shooting the Bull videos (it's how I came to test those particular rounds). When I did slow motion of the ARX, the temp cavity wasn't very impressive and the permanent cavity wasn't either. I'd pick the XTP over the ARX, but after testing I'd pick a Gold Dot 9mm over anything in 380.
 
Your tests do not inspire confidence in the .380ACP.
One can make a strong argument that FMJ is the best defensive load in a .380, but I guess that's for another thread. If a .380 is not going to expand much, at least an FMJ will give it a little more penetration.

I would not want to shoot myself with any of them. I've seen what James Bond can do with a .380.
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
I disagree, this is a comment from another internet story on the Glock 42:

"Below I will explain my choice for carrying the 42 as well as a long rant about how I hate when people talk about stopping power.

I shot both, and the 9mm was too snappy. In simulated self defense scenarios, the Glock 42 in .380 proved to be more effective in my hands. If you are considering the 42 or 43, please try shooting both. Besides being more effective, the Glock 42 was much more fun and comfortable to shoot compared to the 43 and other small .380's.
This is exactly why I did the test. Because I like carrying the 42 and it is a little easier to keep follow up shots on target.

I figured if it was a small ballistic difference between the 42 and the 26 then it would be appropriately offset by the improved convenience and potential improved accuracy.

But in doing the test, there was a small ballistic difference between the 26 and the 34, but a HUGE difference between the 380 and 9mm.

I did the test for me primarily. And for me that's too large of a difference in ballistics. The permanent cavity and temporary cavities were much different. To the point where I think the increased weight and bulk will be worth it for me to carry the 26 over the 42 in most situations.

We are not talking about a huge difference in recoil or accuracy between the 42 and the 26. The test personally motivates me to make sure my training and skills remain sufficient with the 26 in a defensive situation.

I am happy that potentially the Carbine might also be a decent home defense option without any increased risk of overpenetration with the 9mm Gold Dot (will do more testing to confirm). That option adds a lot more accuracy if there's enough time and space to warrant it. I have a suppressor on order which fits the Carbine and a threaded 34 barrel to not deafen other household members and pets should anything happen in the house.
 
Discussion starter · #17 ·
One can make a strong argument that FMJ is the best defensive load in a .380, but I guess that's for another thread. If a .380 is not going to expand much, at least an FMJ will give it a little more penetration.
Penetration is not the issue with these rounds. All made to 13"+ in 35 degree gel. In fact, the Precision One and Winchester FMJs in the 380 test I did went clean through the 16" block, so I would NOT pick that as a defensive round. Tiny little cavities and went right through.
 
Ignore the temporary cavity, focus on the permanent cavity. The point of a hollow point is too cause the threat bleed out fast as possible to stop their attack because the chance of hitting them in the brain or upper spine is very small.

As far as "stopping power" goes, understand that stopping power in handguns is always lacking unless you are talking about rounds are the .45ACP range and larger.
Stopping power of the 45? lol k
 
The best way to measure the permanent cavity a bullet makes is to fill the cavity with a silicone, let it harden, remove it, and place it a container of water to measure how much it rises.

Unfortunately no one does that so the best we can do for this internet discuss is treat the cavity as a cylinder and take it's volume (pi*r^2*h, r=.5expansion and h=penetration).

Using Lucky Gunners data, http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/, I'm using the best performing HST round from each caliber: 124+P, 180, and 230.

124+P: pi*(.5*.66")^2))*18.3"=6.26 cubic inches
180: pi*(.5*.72")^2))*18.5"=7.53 cubic inches
230: pi*(.5*.79")^2))*14"=7.94 cubic inches

Take the cavity per round and multiply that by the total number of rounds in the gun.

G17 (18): 18*6.26=112.68 cubic inches
G22 (16): 16*7.53=120.48 cubic inches
G21 (14): 14*7.94=111.16 cubic inches

G19 (16): 16*6.26=100.16 cubic inches
G23 (14): 14*7.53=105.2 cubic inches
G30 (11): 11*7.94=87.34 cubic inches

G26 (11): 11*6.26=68.86 cubic inches
G27 (10): 10*7.53=75.3 cubic inches
G36 (7): 7*7.94=55.58 cubic inches

Next factor to consider is hits on target. LEOs miss 70-80% of the time, http://soldiersystems.net/2014/09/25/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/. It does not matter if it is your first time shooting or you are Rob Leeham, the more recoil a gun has the harder followup shots will be.

Recoil:
This calculation is based on a public domain free recoil equation that takes into account the bullet weight and muzzle velocity plus the cartridge powder charge weight and expelling gas muzzle velocity applied against the gun's weight. The result is measured in foot-pounds of energy.

vgu = {(mp • vp) + ( mc • vc)} / mgu • 7000 → Etgu = mgu • vgu2 / 2 • gc

Where:
Etgu is the recoil energy expressed in foot-pounds (ft·lb).
mgu is the weight of the gun expressed in pounds (lb).
mp is the weight of the bullet expressed in grains (gr).
mc is the weight of the powder charge expressed in grains (gr).
vgu is the total forward velocity of the gun expressed in feet per second (ft/s).
vp is the velocity of the bullet expressed in feet per second (ft/s).
vc is the velocity of the powder charge expressed in feet per second (ft/s).
gc is the dimensional constant and is the numeral coefficient of 32.1739.
7000 is the conversion factor to set the equation equal to pounds.

G17: 5.6 ft-lbs
G22: 8.5 ft-lbs
G21: 8.7 ft-lbs

G19: 5.8 ft-lbs
G23: 9.1 ft-lbs
G30: 9.1 ft-lbs

G26: 6.2 ft-lbs
G27: 9.5 ft-lbs
G36: 10.9 ft-lbs

Source - http://www.genitron.com/

With more recoil there is less hits on target, on one end is 30% hits on target and the other is 20%.

Take the 5.3 ft-lbs difference (10.9-5.6) and break that down to 53 .1ft-lbs and divide the 10% LEO accuracy to it. Every .1 ft-lb more of recoil decreases accuracy .1886%.

The accuracy by recoil is:

G17: 30%
G22: 24.52%
G21: 24.15%

G19: 29.62%
G23: 23.39%
G30: 23.39%

G26: 28.87%
G27: 22.64%
G36: 20%

We take this hit rate and apply to the wounding capacity of the gun.

G17: 112.68 * .30 =33.804 cubic inches
G22: 120.48 * .2452 = 29.55 cubic inches
G21: 111.16 * .2415 = 26.85 cubic inches

G19: 100.16 * .2962 = 29.67 cubic inches
G23: 105.42 * .2339 = 24.66 cubic inches
G30: 87.34 * .2339 = 20.43 cubic inches

G26: 68.86 * .2886 = 19.88 cubic inches
G27: 75.3 * .2142 = 17.05 cubic inches
G36: 55.58 * .2 = 11.12 cubic inches
 
This is exactly why I did the test. Because I like carrying the 42 and it is a little easier to keep follow up shots on target.

I figured if it was a small ballistic difference between the 42 and the 26 then it would be appropriately offset by the improved convenience and potential improved accuracy.

But in doing the test, there was a small ballistic difference between the 26 and the 34, but a HUGE difference between the 380 and 9mm.

I did the test for me primarily. And for me that's too large of a difference in ballistics. The permanent cavity and temporary cavities were much different. To the point where I think the increased weight and bulk will be worth it for me to carry the 26 over the 42 in most situations.

We are not talking about a huge difference in recoil or accuracy between the 42 and the 26. The test personally motivates me to make sure my training and skills remain sufficient with the 26 in a defensive situation.
There is a significant difference when carrying between the 42 and 26, the 26 is wider and over 10 oz. heavier loaded.

Here's a BG who didn't get the GT memo that the .380 is insufficient for SD:


How would this have ended any differently for the self defense shooter if he had a larger caliber? One that he's less likely to take with him everywhere? Note the BG didn't stop to determine what caliber he was being shot at with, he almost tripped getting out of there, and had no interest in getting into a gunfight. As my link said, that isn't always the case with police encounters where they may end up in jail, we're no threat to capture them. They may be criminals, but they aren't stupid. Stopping power arguments and gel block tests aside, does anyone have any real world story of someone who was killed or wounded because their carry gun was too small of a caliber?

I am happy that potentially the Carbine might also be a decent home defense option without any increased risk of overpenetration with the 9mm Gold Dot (will do more testing to confirm). That option adds a lot more accuracy if there's enough time and space to warrant it. I have a suppressor on order which fits the Carbine and a threaded 34 barrel to not deafen other household members and pets should anything happen in the house.
Home defense is different, size and weight don't matter.
 
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