[vindibona1]

I want to make sure I'm a relatively proficient shooter and want to be sure that not only my 43x is reliable but I am reliable as a shooter. I try to train diligently including getting occasional individual instruction and have recently been going to tactical classes. I am aware that I fight jerking the trigger and have diligently worked on that- and in tactical group I have totally disregarded the clock, taking exponentially more time than others in the group to get the mechanics right. But my POA and POI don't seem to correlate no matter how diligent I am.

Below find a photo of a 10 shot laser group that is representative of what I consistently produce in a 34' hallway, the approximate distance from most of the targets in last night's drills. With a lasert bullet in my 43x I can keep all my shots consistency well within an 8" target at 64 feet (21 yards). But with live rounds, aware of being super smooth with follow thru on my trigger pull I still have difficulty getting POI on 8" steel targets at 30'. There were multiple times when I'd expend 4 or 5 rounds to hit a single steel target no matter how diligent I was, with focus only on proper mechanics and execution.

My rear sight was mechanically centered by an armorer though never technically "zeroed".

I know the first line of reason is "more training". I have been made aware of my tendency to jerk and to pull left, but have been working on that for over a month. I've slowed everything down and yet, the POA is consistently left and when the target is small I get a no-hit with ammo, but at 34' with laser in this same 43x I consistently get 2" groups. I'm trying not to compensate but focus on solid mechanics to no avail.

So when's it time to have the rear moved over? Could a steel/tungsten guide rod possibly help? Other than practice, which is what I try to do a good amount of, what's next?

Thanks in advance for any advice that might put me in the right direction.

 

[mtstream]

Do you have a recent live fire target I could see?

 

[vindibona1]

Do you have a recent live fire target I could see?

Fool that I am I only took pictures of groups that looked decent which usually occurred at the end of a session. I tend to pull left more than low and left, but possibly a bit low. The guys in the group were telling me that I was missing left. But I swear, I slowed to a crawl to make triply sure that my sights were dead center on target. That's the maddening thing. I KNOW my sight picture is perfect yet I miss by over 4" almost all night??? On several runs it took 12-15 shots to hit 8x 8" steel targets at 30+'. With a short run up, and three sets of two plates, each set followed by a lateral move to the next set of two I was slow to the point of being 35-36 seconds where par time was 12-15 seconds (guys with race guns). I was so perplexed because I was so sure of front sight on target and returned pretty much to the same spot after recoil so I wasn't losing grip or over-tensing my right hand. I can't express how frustrating it was when I was dead sure I was on target each and every time only to miss. I think my hits were over-compensation rather than good technique, which concerns me. Maddening.

I had another thought. Could guide rod orientation have any effect? I typically orient my guide rod to the solid metal is pointed up and down. On occasion I'll have it turned 90° so that the open spring is facing up. What I notice in that position, and not in the other, when dry firing the slide ticks right a hair when I pull the trigger. Could a steel or tungsten guide rod help with things?

 

[mtstream]

The orientation of the guide rod will not matter. Occasionally, someone will drop a slide and bend/warp the guide hole. This will cause the gun to be inconsistent (one high, one right, etc etc). If things are consistent like left then it won’t be a moving part but either sights or shooter.

The single stacks have a tendency to twist in the hand. Since you are shooting more consistently left rather than low left I think you have a grip issue over jerking the trigger.

My suggestion (not having seen you shoot) would be to ensure your strong hand is not balling into a fist around the gun. This is not the best video on grip but pay close attention to Mike’s explanation of C-clamp grip with the strong hand Pistol Fundamentals with Mike Hughes 7: Grip | Next Level Training

This is very important with Glocks and other long pull triggers but especially with the single stacks to help ensure they don’t twist to the left. The next step is to really get the support hand in tight and pushing the palm hard against the grip.

I have no problem drifting the sight slightly off center. But know that there’s not enough room to bring the round over 4”. Typically, when I’m drifting off center it’s to move the POI at most 1/4” to 1/2” at 10yds.

If your misses are, as you describe, consistent - take encouragement from that! That indicates a single problem with mechanics that you will eventually find/fix. Consistency is the hardest skill to learn.

 

[vindibona1]

The orientation of the guide rod will not matter. Occasionally, someone will drop a slide and bend/warp the guide hole. This will cause the gun to be inconsistent (one high, one right, etc etc). If things are consistent like left then it won’t be a moving part but either sights or shooter.

The single stacks have a tendency to twist in the hand. Since you are shooting more consistently left rather than low left I think you have a grip issue over jerking the trigger.

My suggestion (not having seen you shoot) would be to ensure your strong hand is not balling into a fist around the gun. This is not the best video on grip but pay close attention to Mike’s explanation of C-clamp grip with the strong hand Pistol Fundamentals with Mike Hughes 7: Grip | Next Level Training

This is very important with Glocks and other long pull triggers but especially with the single stacks to help ensure they don’t twist to the left. The next step is to really get the support hand in tight and pushing the palm hard against the grip.

I have no problem drifting the sight slightly off center. But know that there’s not enough room to bring the round over 4”. Typically, when I’m drifting off center it’s to move the POI at most 1/4” to 1/2” at 10yds.

If your misses are, as you describe, consistent - take encouragement from that! That indicates a single problem with mechanics that you will eventually find/fix. Consistency is the hardest skill to learn.

Thanks. I think this gives me a few things to look at.

EDIT:
I did some dry fire tonight and based on what you said I can see how the gun might be canting itself a bit. I’m not sure that that’s the issue but I can definitely roll my left elbow up and palm in more to stabilize that some.

I want to be proficient with my EDC for obvious reasons. I don't want to question whether or not I'm going to hit what I'm aiming at. And that's exactly what I found myself doing. Sight picture was dead on and I was really focused on trigger pull basics and still missing. So yeah, I now have to look at my grip. What I have in the bin and haven't installed yet is a Talon grip. You think that might help?

To remind myself of the progress I had made in one month of dry fire/laser practice starting in early February, I created a comparison from captured screen shots. Both examples were representative of what I was doing at the time. The early image above was either yesterday or today, which is pretty typical of my laser groups. While these are all with my 43x and laser, I also have a G17 size SIRT pistol, but don't find the trigger pull very realistic so 99% of the time I practice with my 43x. I try to get 100-200 cycles every day. and I practice in a hallway that I've marked at 10', 20' and 30' and can get back to 34'. I have another area that I can practice at 64' late at night sometimes and with laser consistently keep my shots in an 8' circle target at that distance. Why I can't consistently hit 8" live at 30' is bugging me. It's not like I show up at the range and expect to be great without having done any homework.

My buddy has one of those laser tools that sticks out of the barrel to help you get a basic zero.

 

[vindibona1]

Do you have a recent live fire target I could see?

Here are a few live fire targets from today's range trip. The purpose of the session was to try to ascertain if the POA and POI were the same. I started off with few laser bullet shots in my 43x. I shot with the 43x resting on the bench in my hands for stability. All were dead center. Next I did the same exact thing, 3 rounds with live ammo. 2-3" left as you can see. All targets were between 25'-30ish' out and offhand after the first 3 rounds.

I think you were right, I'm fighting torque and really working to get my left hand up into the grip and thumb right under the rail, maybe even pushing a bit. I think that helps a bit. As you can see I'm not that far off, but enough to make me crazy because I know where I'm aiming and the laser verified that I'm at least putting the front sight where I want it. Also, subsquent shots (targets below) confirm that when I adjust the POI I can get more on center. FWIW, the third picture down is 6 shots, 3 from my 43x and 3 shots from my buddy's who was there with me. Do you think the 43x might naturally want to shoot left? I have to wonder if my front sight is too high because even center hold shoots a bit low.

One more thing... I'm trying really hard to hang onto the gun, but upon recoil no matter how hard I hold on I can feel the front of the lower/muzzle flips up above my left thumb. I've tried wedging in all sorts of ways, but can't seem to control the muzzle flip as much as I'd like. Do you think a tungsten guide rod or a light might help?

Your thoughts?


Resting on the bench like the laser test. 3 shots...

More shots. Offhand. Same POI results.

Two different 43x's, 3 shots each...

Here the first two were aimed on center (green). 2nd two aimed up and right (purple)!

Another example of aiming high/right hitting center. Notice the other blacked out shots aimed at center....

 

[Sam Spade]

First, have a proficient shooter shoot the gun, and/or shoot it yourself from a rest. Uncommon as it is, there are still problem pieces of machinery, and it's nice to eliminate that issue right off. Assuming a good gun:

You're seeing the infamous 7:00 drift. This is a strong hand issue 99 44/100ths of the time. You're either manipulating the trigger poorly, or you're squeezing with pinky/ring finger when you shouldn't be. Seriously, set aside mechanical fixes, be they guide rods, connectors or drifting sights. Consider a Mantis-X dry fire gizmo. If your gun lacks a rail, they make attachments for the magazine base plate, and you can still drill with it.

 

[Sam Spade]

And I moved the thread to Tactics and Training, because this doesn't need a gunsmith.

 

[vindibona1]

First, have a proficient shooter shoot the gun, and/or shoot it yourself from a rest. Uncommon as it is, there are still problem pieces of machinery, and it's nice to eliminate that issue right off. Assuming a good gun:

You're seeing the infamous 7:00 drift. This is a strong hand issue 99 44/100ths of the time. You're either manipulating the trigger poorly, or you're squeezing with pinky/ring finger when you shouldn't be. Seriously, set aside mechanical fixes, be they guide rods, connectors or drifting sights. Consider a Mantis-X dry fire gizmo. If your gun lacks a rail, they make attachments for the magazine base plate, and you can still drill with it.

Points well taken. I train with something similar to the Mantis X, I think put out by the same company- a Pink Rhino laser bullet that I use religiously with G-sight software. I have a 34' hallway set up with 10', 20' and 30' markings and practice both from standing drawn and from holster (slow motion right now). The two images are pretty typical of the 10 shot groups I do at 34 feet. I dry fire train almost every day with 100-200 cycles daily.

I took my laser bullet to the range today to try to see if POA and POI were the same with the laser, and used it first before going to live ammo. There is a difference with live ammo that I want to figure out. I assume part of it is grip. Perhaps I'm pulling with my pinky as you suggest? I'll pay attention next time. I don't think I'm jerking as I've realy been working on that aspect. Below find a typical laser group that I do at 34' at home. Also, is a photo of the actual target during my CCL qualification, shot with my 1911. 30 shots at various distances, 10 rounds each at 5 yards, 7 and 10 yards (untimed). Seems I got most of them in the A zone. No low and left there.... and at the time hadn't been to the range in months. Cold with no warm up rounds. I dunno. I'd like to figure it out because I really like my 43x.

 

[G21.4Me]

OK, so you want advice. Here's some more for ya:

1. Begin by losing the laser.

2. Do more live-fire practice. (At least 250 fired rounds a week.)

3. Do more dry-fire practice. (At least a half an hour per day.)

4. Learn and use George Harris' famous 'Wall Drill'. After you start to get good at it. Go to the range, step back from the target board by a good five yards, and begin shooting at the first bullet hole on the paper for group—for group! (The tighter that group is, the better.)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7YdjrvB718

5. Stop thinking about the shot, and learn to frequently repeat the mantra: 'Recoil is my friend.' 'Recoil is my friend.' Recoil is my friend.' 'I can't shoot straight without it!'

6. Now, I am not saying that a pistolero should do this all of the time; however, every now and then, every pistol shooter (of whatever skill level) needs to have a good one or two thousand fired-round day. (Why? In order to remind himself that, indeed: 'Recoil is his friend,' and he cannot shoot straight without it!)

 

[vindibona1]

OK, so you want advice. Here's some more for ya:

1. Begin by losing the laser.

2. Do more live-fire practice. (At least 250 fired rounds a week.)

3. Do more dry-fire practice. (At least a half an hour per day.)

4. Learn and use George Harris' famous 'Wall Drill'. After you start to get good at it. Go to the range, step back from the target board by a good five yards, and begin shooting at the first bullet hole on the paper for group—for group! (The tighter that group is, the better.)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7YdjrvB718

5. Stop thinking about the shot, and learn to frequently repeat the mantra: 'Recoil is my friend.' 'Recoil is my friend.' Recoil is my friend.' 'I can't shoot straight without it!'

6. Now, I am not saying that a pistolero should do this all of the time; however, every now and then, every pistol shooter (of whatever skill level) needs to have a good one or two thousand fired-round day. (Why? In order to remind himself that, indeed: 'Recoil is his friend,' and he cannot shoot straight without it!)

I certainly appreciate the tips. I hadn't heard of the wall drill before, but it certainly makes sense. In a way it's like training to hit a golf ball to keep your eye on the ball (or where it was) and follow through without changing anything, not looking up at the ball before complete follow-thru. I'm not sure why you're recommending to lose the laser. Can you please explain?

Much as I would love to do more live fire, budget doesn't allow for that much ammo expenditure. We're not talking 15¢/rd any more and I gave away my reload equipment when I downsized from a house to a condo. However I do spend at least 30 minutes every day doing dry fire.

Can you please elaborate more on the concept of "recoil is my friend"? I'm not sure I grasp the concept to incorporate it into my shooting mentality.

Thanks again for the advice.

P.S. I think the pinky over-squeeze was part of the culprit. I had gotten advice somewhere to squeeze the pinky to fight recoil and I think that is where my biggest error has been.

 

[G21.4Me]

I certainly appreciate the tips. I hadn't heard of the wall drill before, but it certainly makes sense. In a way it's like training to hit a golf ball to keep your eye on the ball (or where it was) and follow through without changing anything, not looking up at the ball before complete follow-thru. I'm not sure why you're recommending to lose the laser. Can you please explain?

Much as I would love to do more live fire, budget doesn't allow for that much ammo expenditure. We're not talking 15¢/rd any more and I gave away my reload equipment when I downsized from a house to a condo. However I do spend at least 30 minutes every day doing dry fire.

Can you please elaborate more on the concept of "recoil is my friend"? I'm not sure I grasp the concept to incorporate it into my shooting mentality.

Thanks again for the advice.

P.S. I think the pinky over-squeeze was part of the culprit. I had gotten advice somewhere to squeeze the pinky to fight recoil and I think that is where my biggest error has been.

Wow, Vin, you sure know how to ask a lot of good questions! Keep this up and I'll send you my usual training invoice!

OK, let's tackle that list: You're spot-on with your comments about the similarities to a golf swing and follow-thru. You've now got the right concept to work with. It IS all about follow-thru after the sear breaks!

In order to do it right you've got to have a high, tight, and perfectly perpendicular grip on the pistol. If your pistol moves off of the web between the thumb and index finger of your grasping hand then you screwed up!

Because the both of us had to sell our reloading equipment—you after moving, and me after a heart attack—I'll save you several thousand rounds of practice ammo by telling you that much of your accuracy problem stems from the fact that you are (inadvertently or otherwise) releasing control of the 'sweet spot' on the backstrap of your pistol.

What is this so-called 'sweet spot' on a pistol? It is that point on the pistol's backstrap where your grasping hand exerts the most pressure. Anytime you're firing fast you have to maintain absolute control over this point; and, in order to maintain this sort of control, you need to grasp your pistol in exactly the same way each and every time you draw.

Yes, absolutely lose the laser! Why? Because you ain't ever going to be any good with a pistol (which is, after all, an essentially instinctive tool) if you continue shooting with that thing. Look, a laser is aimed—not by aiming the gun, but—by aiming the laser dot instead. Is that really something that you want your proprioceptive reflexes to accommodate for?

Before (long before) you start to fool around with a laser you need to learn how to mechanically aim your gun and direct your gunfire. (Have you ever seen D.R. Middlebrooks do his 50 yard shooting with a 1911 pattern pistol that has no sights on it? Awesome! No wonder D.R. is an outstanding pistol champion!

Let's talk about the kind of extensive practice and expense that an authentic pistolero has to invest: Before I was able to bring a crowd of police officers to their feet, applauding, I had to first get my wife's permission NOT to go on vacation for a good two years. Why? Because all of that vacation money went into practice ammunition in order to allow me to perfect my technique with a handgun. THAT is why! (I'm sorry, but, I don't know of any other way to become really good with a pistol.)

Finally, why do you need—actually need—to 'make recoil your friend'? Because it is THIS subliminal fear of loud noises and rapid movement that is at the root of screwing your pistol shooting up. You need to overcome this subconscious fear of noise and sudden motion by learn how TO USE RECOIL in order to aim your gun rather than allowing your body to simply wait for it to happen.

This involves mastery of a subject that is almost never talked about on anybody's gun forum: Adoption to, and control over THE RHYTHM of firing a handgun. When you learn how to make recoil your friend then, in a sense, you will have learned how to DANCE WITH IT.

That's it! Absorb this information, and you should be well on your way toward developing a high degree of personal skill with a combat handgun. (Trust me, you'll be well beyond average!)

 

[vindibona1]

Wow, Vin, you sure know how to ask a lot of good questions! Keep this up and I'll send you my usual training invoice!

OK, let's tackle that list: You're spot-on with your comments about the similarities to a golf swing and follow-thru. You've now got the right concept to work with. It IS all about follow-thru after the sear breaks!

In order to do it right you've got to have a high, tight, and perfectly perpendicular grip on the pistol. If your pistol moves off of the web between the thumb and index finger of your grasping hand then you screwed up!

Because the both of us had to sell our reloading equipment—you after moving, and me after a heart attack—I'll save you several thousand rounds of practice ammo by telling you that much of your accuracy problem stems from the fact that you are (inadvertently or otherwise) releasing control of the 'sweet spot' on the backstrap of your pistol.

What is this so-called 'sweet spot' on a pistol? It is that point on the pistol's backstrap where your grasping hand exerts the most pressure. Anytime you're firing fast you have to maintain absolute control over this point; and, in order to maintain this sort of control, you need to grasp your pistol in exactly the same way each and every time you draw.

Yes, absolutely lose the laser! Why? Because you ain't ever going to be any good with a pistol (which is, after all, an essentially instinctive tool) if you continue shooting with that thing. Look, a laser is aimed—not by aiming the gun, but—by aiming the laser dot instead. Is that really something that you want your proprioceptive reflexes to accommodate for?

Before (long before) you start to fool around with a laser you need to learn how to mechanically aim your gun and direct your gunfire. (Have you ever seen D.R. Middlebrooks do his 50 yard shooting with a 1911 pattern pistol that has no sights on it? Awesome! No wonder D.R. is an outstanding pistol champion!

Let's talk about the kind of extensive practice and expense that an authentic pistolero has to invest: Before I was able to bring a crowd of police officers to their feet, applauding, I had to first get my wife's permission NOT to go on vacation for a good two years. Why? Because all of that vacation money went into practice ammunition in order to allow me to perfect my technique with a handgun. THAT is why! (I'm sorry, but, I don't know of any other way to become really good with a pistol.)

Finally, why do you need—actually need—to 'make recoil your friend'? Because it is THIS subliminal fear of loud noises and rapid movement that is at the root of screwing your pistol shooting up. You need to overcome this subconscious fear of noise and sudden motion by learn how TO USE RECOIL in order to aim your gun rather than allowing your body to simply wait for it to happen.

This involves mastery of a subject that is almost never talked about on anybody's gun forum: Adoption to, and control over THE RHYTHM of firing a handgun. When you learn how to make recoil your friend then, in a sense, you will have learned how to DANCE WITH IT.

That's it! Absorb this information, and you should be well on your way toward developing a high degree of personal skill with a combat handgun. (Trust me, you'll be well beyond average!)

Two clarifications needed:
A) I want to make sure we're talking about the same sort of laser that you've admonished me to ditch. The Pink Rhino laser is not like a SIRT pistol. The laser is a short burst activated by the striker. You don't aim with it, but see the result after the fact. I think it has helped me significantly in terms of becoming more consistent with the dry fire trigger pull. Now I have to have it translate to live fire, which is the only thing that counts. The only differences that I see are three: 1) Perhaps there is a tendency to look at the laser result truncating the time looking at the front sight on the follow-through. 2) No bullet trajectory which we know is not a straight line. 3) No recoil. Are we still talking about the same type of laser? The SIRT, which I had borrowed for a few weeks can have a laser aiming device turned on, but the trigger isn't anything like the trigger in my 43x.

B) The "grasp" hand. Right hand for a right handed shooter?

Please tell me more about controlling the control point on the back strap and how to control it. I sort of understand the basic idea, but I'm having difficulty visualizing what to do; how to control it. Can you tell me more about how you approach "using recoil to aim your gun"? This sounds interesting. I never heard anything like it, but can understand why the approach might be effective.

I get your approach fully. I've taught alpine skiing for 40 years and after getting my Level III instructors certification (which meant no more testing and parroting technique or information) I was able to concentrate on what best worked to make students ski better, faster (and it wasn't the method that the organization certified me under). I often work conceptually from the other end of the skill spectrum with amazing results. So while I don't understand what to do with the "recoil is your friend business, I can see why you might use it effectively". So, again, please elaborate.

Unfortunately, as much as I'd like to expend more live ammo, it just can't happen at these ammo prices. Maybe one day when the country regains its political sanity and we can avoid the bullspit that the Democrats are sending down the pipeline and we can get back people in government who think rather than just "feel" (whatever their feelings identify with) we might once again have a chance at affordable ammo and more practice time. In the meantime, Biden's XL pipeline cancellation is costing everyone an extra $20 every time they fill up their car or truck.

 

[G21.4Me]

Two clarifications needed:
A) I want to make sure we're talking about the same sort of laser that you've admonished me to ditch. The Pink Rhino laser is not like a SIRT pistol. The laser is a short burst activated by the striker. You don't aim with it, but see the result after the fact. I think it has helped me significantly in terms of becoming more consistent with the dry fire trigger pull. Now I have to have it translate to live fire, which is the only thing that counts. The only differences that I see are three: 1) Perhaps there is a tendency to look at the laser result truncating the time looking at the front sight on the follow-through. 2) No bullet trajectory which we know is not a straight line. 3) No recoil. Are we still talking about the same type of laser? The SIRT, which I had borrowed for a few weeks can have a laser aiming device turned on, but the trigger isn't anything like the trigger in my 43x.

B) The "grasp" hand. Right hand for a right handed shooter?

Please tell me more about controlling the control point on the back strap and how to control it. I sort of understand the basic idea, but I'm having difficulty visualizing what to do; how to control it. Can you tell me more about how you approach "using recoil to aim your gun"? This sounds interesting. I never heard anything like it, but can understand why the approach might be effective.

I get your approach fully. I've taught alpine skiing for 40 years and after getting my Level III instructors certification (which meant no more testing and parroting technique or information) I was able to concentrate on what best worked to make students ski better, faster (and it wasn't the method that the organization certified me under). I often work conceptually from the other end of the skill spectrum with amazing results. So while I don't understand what to do with the "recoil is your friend business, I can see why you might use it effectively". So, again, please elaborate.

Unfortunately, as much as I'd like to expend more live ammo, it just can't happen at these ammo prices. Maybe one day when the country regains its political sanity and we can avoid the bullspit that the Democrats are sending down the pipeline and we can get back people in government who think rather than just "feel" (whatever their feelings identify with) we might once again have a chance at affordable ammo and more practice time. In the meantime, Biden's XL pipeline cancellation is costing everyone an extra $20 every time they fill up their car or truck.

No, we're not talking about the same type of laser. You are referring to a training device, and I am referring to an aiming device.

The 'grasping hand' is whichever hand is actually holding the gun. I am ambidextrous; so this distinction is very important to me. (Sometimes it can get confusing, too!) Because I am usually the vehicle's driver, I try to carry the pistol on my right hand side; however, there have been times when I've actually reached for my EDC with the wrong hand!

You seem to be 'fighting it'. May I suggest that you stop. You also seem to be fixated on trigger pull. Know what? Trigger pull—'the wall', excessive take-up, creep, rough break, etc—all mean next to nothing when it comes to shooting a pistol straight. The one single factor that can genuinely throw a combat pistol shooter off is additional trigger movement to the rear after the sear breaks—That's it!

Don't believe me? OK, Then live with the fact that the best Glock trigger on the planet is still no better than an overpriced piece of junk which, when compared to a tuned 1911 pattern trigger, is and always has been a slipshod 'mechanical beast'—And THAT is a cold hard fact! Glock triggers (including all of the aftermarket triggers) are brutally rough and cheap. Still, some of the best pistol shooting I have ever done, I've done with a Glock pistol. (Not as tight as equally skilled 1911 shooters standing next to me, but still very decent.)

So, with the human body's ability to make physical adjustments, and the human mind's talent for working around obstacles like excessive creep and a rough break, lots and lots of pistoleros are able to handle otherwise genuinely clunky, striker-fired triggers well (or, at least, well enough).

Accurate (rapid fire) pistol shooting begins with the right grip; however, before a shooter can grip a pistol correctly he, first, has to know HOW to correctly grasp and control it. In order to do this a shooter needs to know where his pistol's actual physical control points are; and I have already told you exactly where to start looking.

Stop focusing on the trigger, and start focusing on the whole pistol, instead. In the alternative you might want to gather information and seek training from somewhere like the Tactical Shooting Academy in Surry, VA. I'll provide the link for books and live fire training. (D.R. is the best I know!)

Good luck!

Home - Tactical Shooting

Elevate your shooting skills with expert guides on building, upgrading, and training. Dive into the world of tactical shooting with us!

www.tacticalshooting.com

 

[vindibona1]

No, we're not talking about the same type of laser. You are referring to a training device, and I am referring to an aiming device.

You seem to be 'fighting it'. May I suggest that you stop. You also seem to be fixated on trigger pull. Know what? Trigger pull—'the wall', excessive take-up, creep, rough break, etc—all mean next to nothing when it comes to shooting a pistol straight. The one single factor that can genuinely throw a combat pistol shooter off is additional trigger movement to the rear after the sear breaks—That's it!

Accurate (rapid fire) pistol shooting begins with the right grip; however, before a shooter can grip a pistol correctly he, first, has to know HOW to correctly grasp and control it. In order to do this a shooter needs to know where his pistol's actual physical control points are; and I have already told you exactly where to start looking.

Stop focusing on the trigger, and start focusing on the whole pistol, instead. In the alternative you might want to gather information and seek training from somewhere like the Tactical Shooting Academy in Surry, VA. I'll provide the link for books and live fire training. (D.R. is the best I know!)

Good luck!

Home - Tactical Shooting

Elevate your shooting skills with expert guides on building, upgrading, and training. Dive into the world of tactical shooting with us!

www.tacticalshooting.com

I ask you to forgive me, but I am a very literal thinker and need to understand the complexity before I can boil it down to simplicity (if you can grasp that). I've put your comments above in bold that I need to address. I'm not so much fixated on trigger pull in isolation, but as part of controlling the whole gun. I think I know how to "hold" my pistol but I'm having difficulties in figuring out how to put pressure in the correct places to control it. I know I've not got that part down because I can feel that my support thumb and the front of the frame lose contact on recoil. I may be wrong, but it appears that the hands and the frame should be more or less welded together at all time. I believe that my support hand doesn't quite know what to do so hang on properly and how to apply the proper forces. I have to believe that once I get that sorted out everything will fall into place. I've tried the Middlebrooks wall drill and I get zero movement when I pull the trigger. It's holding on during recoil that I am missing. It may be worth mentioning that until these past few months, really mostly shooting my 1911 I've shot "Weaver", which I was trained with in the 80's. My CCL qualification target was shot with my 1911 with a Weaver grip. I know that I have to update my grip and stance, especially with a smaller, lighter pistol.

I think you're right about the overtravel though it is counterintuitive and one would think that pre-travel would be the biggie. As Johnny Glock says, one way or another you're going to take all the pre travel out with your finger. It's a matter of how efficient the shoe is, and I would add one's personal tolerance. As a musician I have very little tolerance for inefficient movement of my fingers and perhaps have an elevated tactile senses as well as an appreciation for precision. I can see how the microsecond between the break and the bullet exiting the barrel could affect accuracy. I've never been a marksman, but could shoot pretty well with my 1911 for practical purposes.

I've found a couple areas where my grip could use adjustment and will work with that. I think the palm of my "grasp" hand wasn't flat enough on the handle trying to keep the V between my index and thumb in line with my arm. Consequently I don't have as much contact with the handle with my grasp hand as possible. While it feels unnatural at this moment, perhaps part of the answer is to rotate my hand (green illustration in photo below) more toward the trigger and articulate my wrist to maintain alignment with my arm. The red illustration below is generally how I've been gripping with my right hand. Obviously squeezing the left hand reinforces the right, but would have to assume that some rotational forces (leverage) come into play to, as you say, dance with the recoil because I know I'm not going to stop it. This is the area where I'm most uncertain. With Weaver it was mostly push/pull. Not in Weaver-land any more, Dorothy.

Any additional thoughts addressing the above (and images below) would be appreciated.

 

[OttoLoader]

Vindibona1,

I have read your posts and have some basic points for your consideration.

Baseline, confirm that the sights are zeroed.
Use sand bags get second opinion by experienced shooter.

The shooters technique.
You will need to experiment with various combinations of grip hold, wrist secure hold , and trigger finger placement.

Broad categories.

1.Establish the consistent firm grip such that the pistol is held the same way each time.

2.Wrist. Practice holding rock solid all the time.

3.Trigger placement so the barrel stays on target through the entire trigger press.

In dry fire practice find the best combination for you (1, 2 and 3).

During the entire trigger press

Keep your front sight on the bulls eye target through the entire trigger press.
You will need to adjust to do so if you do not have the optimized combination established. ( This is the problem until fine tuning your technique.)

Shooting left or low left for the right hand shooter is due to operator technique. Assume the pistol is in spec and sights zeroed.

Also over travel. Use the follow through technique as with a target shooting. The technique while keeping your front sight on target through the trigger press , continue press all the way back, even after the shot.

Once you get the combination established then build on that.

 

[G21.4Me]

Vin, after reading your most recent reply I am struck by the thought that you might just be 'lemon-squeezing' the grip. I say this because I can tell that there just isn't enough straight forward and straight back control during recoil and front sight recapture. (One of the reasons why I wanted you to lose the laser.)

The support hand pushes straight back, and the grasping hand pushes straight forward. The pistol is actually controlled by its front and backstraps—not by the sides of the grip to which only light pressure is applied.

It's not Middlebrooks' 'Wall Drill'; it's George Harris's. Middlebrooks' videos on how to correctly grip a pistol in what he calls his 'Fist-Fire' technique might be of help to you here. During the last 12 years I have completely changed my grip on a pistol from a classic 'Modified Weaver' to the 'Reverse Chapman' (or Fist-Fire).

Why? Because while either style of grip works, and works well, the Reverse Chapman grip is considerably more natural, takes advantage of the body's tendon and muscle structure better; and, after a little practice, is much easier and less stressful to use. I must be doing something right too, because several senior government trainers have been very interested in how I handle a pistol. (Even at my present age I am still very fast and accurate.)

I don't think that I can teach you, or perhaps anyone else how to correctly handle a pistol via the internet. I've written several well received blog articles and one ebook on this subject though, but I've now said as much as I want to say on anybody's gun forum—OK!

I think Middlebrooks still has a training book out (or at least still available); you might want to pick it up. He's a lot better known and far more of an authority on this subject than I am. In fact I consider the man to be a modern pistoleering genius!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGQ8X62e9Ac
www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a-bFZQPvpI
www.goodreads.com/book/show/54655426-fist-fire-defensive-speed-shooting

 

[vindibona1]

Vin, after reading your most recent reply I am struck by the thought that you might just be 'lemon-squeezing' the grip. I say this because I can tell that there just isn't enough straight forward and straight back control during recoil and front sight recapture. (One of the reasons why I wanted you to lose the laser.)

The support hand pushes straight back, and the grasping hand pushes straight forward. The pistol is actually controlled by its front and backstraps—not by the sides of the grip to which only light pressure is applied.

It's not Middlebrooks' 'Wall Drill'; it's George Harris's. Middlebrooks' videos on how to correctly grip a pistol in what he calls his 'Fist-Fire' technique might be of help to you here. During the last 12 years I have completely changed my grip on a pistol from a classic 'Modified Weaver' to the 'Reverse Chapman' (or Fist-Fire).

Why? Because while either style of grip works, and works well, the Reverse Chapman grip is considerably more natural, takes advantage of the body's tendon and muscle structure better; and, after a little practice, is much easier and less stressful to use. I must be doing something right too, because several senior government trainers have been very interested in how I handle a pistol. (Even at my present age I am still very fast and accurate.)

I don't think that I can teach you, or perhaps anyone else how to correctly handle a pistol via the internet. I've written several well received blog articles and one ebook on this subject though, but I've now said as much as I want to say on anybody's gun forum—OK!

I think Middlebrooks still has a training book out (or at least still available); you might want to pick it up. He's a lot better known and far more of an authority on this subject than I am. In fact I consider the man to be a modern pistoleering genius!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGQ8X62e9Ac
www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a-bFZQPvpI
www.goodreads.com/book/show/54655426-fist-fire-defensive-speed-shooting

Thank you for this and your other detailed replies. And you are correct, I am "lemon squeezing" because most of the videos on "modern" grips tell us to "grip tightly with the support hand". You'll have to forgive me I can no longer names to save my life, but there was a video about a young Asian shooter who primarily used front/back opposing pressure and little side pressure. And perhaps the details of the other videos were lacking specifics (again, I am a literal listener/thinker). So perhaps they were doing the same thing. But the overall mantra in the instructional videos is "get the support palm firmly on the side down by the thumbs and squeeze with the support hand. So the (my?) natural response to that was, while squeezing, to use the fingers of my left hand to sort of prevent upward rotation by resisting by rolling in the same direction as you "roll" into position. I don't think that's what you're saying. You've said "push forward/pull back" and I can see how that might keep the pistol in place in my hands. I like that. And the Weaver that I used on my CCL qualification (see target) pretty much is from push/pull with a 1911 that not only recoils up but wants to twist.

I think I've got my marching orders for now and have something to work with, so thank you very much for putting up with my need for detailed explanations.
@OttoLoader Thanks for the comments. I've made note of them which mimics much of the other advice. I think I have something to work with now. G21 has given me a good mental picture of what I think I need to work on and was right on the money with the lemon squeeze analogy. That's what I do and thought I should be doing. I had no idea how to grip and apply force, but it makes sense. Recoil is going to happen and I've got to be able to hang onto the gun with it goes off, which has clearly not been the case, but I've been unable to figure out what to change. When we view other shooters it is impossible to see how they apply force in an isometric situation. And vice versa, I have had instructors' eyes on me, but none have questioned my technique, but IMO should have.

I'm happy to say that I have my basic trigger setup set and need to change nothing more. The only thing that I am on the fence about is applying a Talon grip that I have in my bin. I don't want to change the contour of the 43x. Any thoughts on leaving off or putting on the Talon grip?

 

[G21.4Me]

Thank you for this and your other detailed replies. And you are correct, I am "lemon squeezing" because most of the videos on "modern" grips tell us to "grip tightly with the support hand". You'll have to forgive me I can no longer names to save my life, but there was a video about a young Asian shooter who primarily used front/back opposing pressure and little side pressure. And perhaps the details of the other videos were lacking specifics (again, I am a literal listener/thinker). So perhaps they were doing the same thing. But the overall mantra in the instructional videos is "get the support palm firmly on the side down by the thumbs and squeeze with the support hand. So the (my?) natural response to that was, while squeezing, to use the fingers of my left hand to sort of prevent upward rotation by resisting by rolling in the same direction as you "roll" into position. I don't think that's what you're saying. You've said "push forward/pull back" and I can see how that might keep the pistol in place in my hands. I like that. And the Weaver that I used on my CCL qualification (see target) pretty much is from push/pull with a 1911 that not only recoils up but wants to twist.

I think I've got my marching orders for now and have something to work with, so thank you very much for putting up with my need for detailed explanations.
@OttoLoader Thanks for the comments. I've made note of them which mimics much of the other advice. I think I have something to work with now. G21 has given me a good mental picture of what I think I need to work on and was right on the money with the lemon squeeze analogy. That's what I do and thought I should be doing. I had no idea how to grip and apply force, but it makes sense. Recoil is going to happen and I've got to be able to hang onto the gun with it goes off, which has clearly not been the case, but I've been unable to figure out what to change. When we view other shooters it is impossible to see how they apply force in an isometric situation. And vice versa, I have had instructors' eyes on me, but none have questioned my technique, but IMO should have.

I'm happy to say that I have my basic trigger setup set and need to change nothing more. The only thing that I am on the fence about is applying a Talon grip that I have in my bin. I don't want to change the contour of the 43x. Any thoughts on leaving off or putting on the Talon grip?

Vin, I am going to stay with you through one more reply. So, here we go! You have said, "But the overall mantra in the instructional videos is "get the support palm firmly on the side down by the thumbs and squeeze with the support hand." And I am telling you now: ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Primary pressure (like 90% of it) is applied to the pistol ONLY between the front and the backstrap—straight back, and straight forward. Not to wear the topic out, but, Middlebrooks does an excellent video on how to properly use a Fist-Fire grip; in this video he actually discusses the necessary space between a shooter's support hand, and the side of the pistol's frame.

Moreover, when you get really good with a pistol the, 'Reverse Chapman' stance and grip will really come into its own for ya! The pressure on your upper forearm tendons will disappear, and the gun will begin to recoil far more gently in your hands. Something else happens, too: (Don't laugh!) I found myself further modifying my grip by applying a '1/8 Homie' cant to the pistol. This should tell the both of us that gaining front to back control over a pistol by learning how to control that 'sweet spot' on a pistol's backstrap is of absolutely critical importance.

Here's a couple of my rapid fire pistol targets for you to mull over. The first one was rapid-fired at 16 1/2 yards, and the second one was rapid-fired at 20 yards: (Both were shot with my right hand, and just as fast as I could make my G21 go bang, bang, bang!)





Here's a picture of my usual very well worn EDC G21 that I took just the other day. (The rapid-fire target that it's lying on, though is from my G19.)



I am showing you this EDC pistol because it is set up identical to each of my other Glocks—Identical! All of them are fitted with extended and ported Bar-Sto Precision barrels; they have the same permanently epoxied-in-place trigger stops (via the THU's), and Hogue, HandALL, soft polymer, grip sleeves. (They look pedestrian as all get-out, but there are numerous other modifications inside them, as well.)

Here is the aftermarket grip that I, personally, really do love:

www.hogueinc.com/grips/handall-grip-sleeves/beavertail/glock-17-18-19x-20-21-22-24-31-34-35-37-40-41-45

 

[vindibona1]

Vin, I am going to stay with you through one more reply. So, here we go! You have said, "But the overall mantra in the instructional videos is "get the support palm firmly on the side down by the thumbs and squeeze with the support hand." And I am telling you now: ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Primary pressure (like 90% of it) is applied to the pistol ONLY between the front and the backstrap—straight back, and straight forward. Not to wear the topic out, but, Middlebrooks does an excellent video on how to properly use a Fist-Fire grip; in this video he actually discusses the necessary space between a shooter's support hand, and the side of the pistol's frame.

Moreover, when you get really good with a pistol the, 'Reverse Chapman' stance and grip will really come into its own for ya! The pressure on your upper forearm tendons will disappear, and the gun will begin to recoil far more gently in your hands. Something else happens, too: (Don't laugh!) I found myself further modifying my grip by applying a '1/8 Homie' cant to the pistol. This should tell the both of us that gaining front to back control over a pistol by learning how to control that 'sweet spot' on a pistol's backstrap is of absolutely critical importance.

Here's a couple of my rapid fire pistol targets for you to mull over. The first one was rapid-fired at 16 1/2 yards, and the second one was rapid-fired at 20 yards: (Both were shot with my right hand, and just as fast as I could make my G21 go bang, bang, bang!)





Here's a picture of my usual very well worn EDC G21 that I took just the other day. (The rapid-fire target that it's lying on, though is from my G19.)



I am showing you this EDC pistol because it is set up identical to each of my other Glocks—Identical! All of them are fitted with extended and ported Bar-Sto Precision barrels; they have the same permanently epoxied-in-place trigger stops (via the THU's), and Hogue, HandALL, soft polymer, grip sleeves. (They look pedestrian as all get-out, but there are numerous other modifications inside them, as well.)

Here is the aftermarket grip that I, personally, really do love:

www.hogueinc.com/grips/handall-grip-sleeves/beavertail/glock-17-18-19x-20-21-22-24-31-34-35-37-40-41-45

Thanks once again. I think I fully grasp where you're coming from and I think you are right. I also think that what you've prescribed is doable as it is not that far off from what I was taught back the day and had shot with since... until getting the 43x. There are a few conceptual things that I'll have to figure out to physiologically put the pieces all togther but I think I have the building blocks now. I'm not a terrible shooter but want to be good, but don't think I have the resources to be great. But I don't think I need great right now. What I need is a routine that builds confidence in my ability to put rounds in a reasonable space on a reasonably sized target at a reasonable distance. At this moment I just need to reign things in a few inches and time and practice will take care of the rest. Interesting to hear that you shoot with a slight cant. I'm curious how that helps you?

As far as the Hogue grip, I have one of those laying around somewhere. At the time I thought it provided more interference than help, but I'll dig it up and try it once again. I'm pretty good at getting it on and off so it will be easy to try once again. I like the fact that it doesn't require a lot of prep to install and when you take it off there is no goo left behind.

I think with all your advice and links I'm prepared now to go after it. My schedule changes radically next week, but hopefully I can find time to carve out regular range time. I think I can squeeze one more range session in before it all changes to work on these things.

Thanks for everything. I appreciate your patience and perseverence.
V