[jonb32248]

Then I'm assuming you don't carry a Glock?

Yep I do on occasion.

 

[Deputydave]

The CT Montville Police Department has announced that they will switch to Glock 9mm handguns. Just placed an order for $20k for Glocks.

Oooops!!

https://www.police1.com/police-products/firearms/articles/conn-police-department-to-replace-all-officers-handguns-due-to-safety-concerns-shVuKA0s4AIcvJze/

www.glocktalk.com

That's called a knee-jerk response. Did they do a full investigation? If so, what was the conclusion? And changing from Sig to Glock because of discharges in the holster is actually kinda funny considering Glock has had them for five times longer than the P320 has existed.

Edited to add: The incident occurred only 3 days ago so the answer would be 'no'. They haven't done a full investigation of the incident. So it was a knee-jerk response.

 

[Deputydave]

Yep I do on occasion.

I don't understand why you'd be concerned about a P320, yet not be concerned about Glock since they've had discharges in the holster going back 40 years?

 

[jonb32248]

Maybe because not enough cops are using those brands. Most of the brands you listed aren't used by LEOs, (except Walther and Smithy to a much,much smaller extent than Glock or SIG.) Lol Girsan, PSA Dagger, no 1st world military or police carry that junk.

Never said cops carry those makes just said you don't hear of them having issues like Sig.

 

[nn4rh]

If the problem was the same "always" problem cited, about obstructions in the holster, then, presumably If he had been wearing a Glock, not a Sig P320, the gun also would have fired when he bent over ?

 

[italianstallion]

Never said cops carry those makes just said you don't hear of them having issues like Sig.

I think you just proved your point without knowing it.....

What's the #1 demographic that reports ADs/NDs/UDs ?

If you figure it out, you got your answer.

 

[Pingman]

You can't remember when LEO's Glocks were going off spontaneously ?

And yes that includes going off while inside the holster:

SWAT officer shot when child pulls trigger in holster (police1.com)

Las Vegas police: Allegiant Stadium shooting suspect pulled trigger from inside holster (fox5vegas.com)

Glock 43 Goes Off When Bending Over - YouTube

Come on man, 1/2 the people on here have very short-term memory, but when the issue involves a Sig, it's the guns fault. The same thing happens with a Glock, and nothing to see here.

In the first 2 stories you list it is clearly stated in both stories that someone stuck their finger in the holster and pulled the trigger. Not the guns fault. Maybe the holster, but not the gun. The third one the video is so blurry you can't see what he put the pistol into. He stuck it in the waistband. If there is a holster you can't tell what kind it is. It could be nylon, or soft leather which could easily cause the trigger to be depressed when bending over. That could happen with any brand of gun. Not the best examples of spontaneous gun discharges. I'm sure any brand of firearm could discharge if there is something in a holster. Something is clearly going on with the Sig P320. There are too many stories like this for them all to be negligence. I personally think it is the design of the striker block. It is different than any I've seen in any other striker fired pistol and it is the only one I have seen that is part of the striker assembly and another a part of the slide. I'm not firearms engineer, but that setup looks like it could fail to me. I don't shoot or own any Sigs and will not in the future until I see this issue resolved. Too much smoke in my opinion for there not to be a fire.

 

[Deputydave]

If the problem was the same "always" problem cited, about obstructions in the holster, then, presumably If he had been wearing a Glock, not a Sig P320, the gun also would have fired when he bent over ?

Yes. It would have been the same if it were a Glock. A foreign object in the holster that depresses the trigger will cause a discharge. It doesn't mean it's the fault of the pistol because it did exactly what it was designed to do i.e. the trigger gets pulled so the gun goes bang. Same thing happened with the Glock 43 video that comes up from time to time here and other gun forums. It wasn't a defective Glock, it did what it was designed to do.

 

[Deputydave]

What's the #1 demographic that reports ADs/NDs/UDs ?

And that is a big point. In LE and AD has to be reported by policy. A civilian doesn't have that 'policy' per say so if it happens to a civilian, and no one is around (or got injured) they may very well not report it. LE has a gun present every single day and they are continually in and out of the holster with it day after day. For example, they go into the jail to drop a prisoner off...the gun is secured which means it is in and out of the holster. They go to court, same thing. At any point something may have gotten into the holster they didn't notice. It isn't far fetched, it happens all the time.

 

[italianstallion]

I personally think it is the design of the striker block.

I'm not a SIG armorer, but I'm a Glock armorer who also does FFL work on Glocks and SIGs (and some H&K stuff) - the striker block is not a problem. For the firing pin to have free release, a couple things need to happen:

1. Trigger needs to be pulled, which in turn
2. Depresses the firing pin safety upwards which allows for full release of the FP.
3. Upon trigger pull, the sear begins to move down far enough to release the FP leg and ultimately fire the gun.
4. Even assuming the safety lever is removed from the pistol and there is some sort of major malfunction, the sear has a secondary safety notch that catches the FP leg if it somehow manages to slip off the sear, which will not fire the gun. The sear has 2 springs underneath it providing constant upwards tension to "catch" the FP leg in case of some major malfunction. These are the same 2 springs that control the P320's trigger pull. Some lunatics have cut down both spring and even got it down to a 1 lbs. trigger.

I've broken down P320s in front of some of the hesitant customers that hear the crazy things on the internet just to show them how the safety system works. In a perfect world, the P320 doesn't need a trigger tabbed safety because the trigger bar moves in the OPPOSITE direction (moves forward) whereas most pistols' trigger bars move rearward. The 2017 problem was simply SIG did not drop test the gun from every single angle. None of the standard drop test have it at a -30 degree angle.

And you with think with all these degenerate lawyers, they have about 5 years now to prove or show or document how a post-recall P320 can fire without the trigger being pulled. To date we are still waiting.

One of the worst mischaracterizations I have ever seen of any firearm ever was the now infamous but removed "Bagnell" video of their idea of P320 internals and how the safeties work. For those that can remember, it was so full of lies and animations that made no sense, to try and prove that the FP leg can slip off the sear and just fire the gun. Anyways they got sued by SIG and the law firm had to remove the video but traces still exist online for entertainment.

Lawyers are disgusting people, too much in common with politicians.

 

[Pier23]

Time to blame the reloads.

 

[mmcbeat]

Can't tell if you're joking or for real.

Unfortunately I’m serious. Policy or not, real issue or not, some individuals are probably (possibly?) not chambering a round because of safety concerns. I can’t find it right now but a female LEO who claims her 320 discharged on its own was interviewed and stated that she was still carrying a 320 but without a round in the chamber.
I think the P320 ND/AD’s are probably operator error but the video in the first post is troubling.

 

[LaneP]

Don't the army's have manual safeties? Of course, might not help depending on how it's designed.

Just before I retired they had starting issuing the 320 to Security Forces at our base (Air National Guard). I asked one of the cops if they carried safety on. He said they carry chambered and safety off, per reg, which I found surprising.

 

[Lab4Us]

The pistol doesn't just 'go off' in the holster. He was bending down when it happened. So there was an action the precipitated the discharge. So it's obvious that something depressed the trigger when he bent down. Something was either in the holster (i.e. foreign object) or the holster itself was defective. The act of bending down caused whatever was in the holster to stress and depress the trigger or the holster flexed in a way it wasn't suppose to and the trigger was depressed.

Same thing happened to the Glock 43 in the viral video from years back.

I used to defend all the Sig P320 unintended discharges like this over at Sigtalk (same username). While doing so, I built up a nice Sig striker fired collection. P320 RX Carry, 2 x P320 X-Compacts, and 4 x P365 (one an XL).

As the years went on and those unintended discharges continued (and continue) to happen, I did some serious reflecting and finally succumbed to the smoke = fire hypothesis. This past April all my plastic Sigs turned into a Colt Python, a Colt King Cobra, and a SW PC 442. Thought I was done with plastic…kept my P229 Legion RX.

Then one night I mistakenly ordered half a case of .357 Sig thinking I was ordering .357 Magnum. By the time I realized it, couldn’t cancel, and we all know it’s non-returnable. Not wanting to take the 60% LGS trade hit. Thought I’d just buy a P229 in .357 Sig…nope, don’t make them anymore, Did some research and found Glock 32 was .357 Sig. Never thought about Glock, wanted a Glock, or had opinions about Glock. Went to Glock site and read all about them, and specifically the Safe Action System. It certainly seemed to me Glock was a bit more attuned to striker fired safety than Sig seemed to be, so ordered the G32. Ran a couple hundred rounds through it without incident and now have a G48x MOS as well.

I certainly believe you that Glock had similar issues in the past. The question is how far in the past and when was the last one? Last (and only one I’m aware of) is some FBI agent was break dancing, his waistband stored gun flew out, and discharged when being pick up, him claiming he didn’t touch the trigger).

I think the issue with the P320s is they keep happening. A multitude of agencies carry Glock as their service weapon but there doesn’t seem to be quarterly unintended discharges reported.

I am not an Sig hater (still have and shoot P229 Legion, would have a P229 in .357 Sig if they still made them and then would not have bought my first Glock). I could potentially buy other Sigs in the future. But until they explain their striker safety action efforts as clearly and openly as Glock does, any future Sigs would be hammer fired.

I, personally, just think there could still be P320 issues. It’s 2023 going on 2024. These things shouldn’t still be happening. The only thing I don’t like is that the reports never seem to indicate if these were pre “voluntary“ recall P320 specimens or if the “victims” actually took advantage of the “voluntary“ recall (which, in my opinion should not have been voluntary).

As a caveat, I do realize social media and the internet explodes these type of reports exponentially more than any that occurred 10+ years ago.

 

[Mayhem like Me]

It's not a defense, it's critical thinking. If a foreign object in the holster depressed the trigger the pistol is doing exactly what it was designed to do.



It doesn't. Again, the P320 has had incidents for 8 years while Glock has had incidents for 4 decades. As noted above, several times, Glock leg came about for a reason i.e. they were discharging going into, or while in the holster and we have video of this as well. The cause is always something depressing the trigger that shouldn't be depressing the trigger i.e. foreign object in the holster.

As I stated in the other P320 threads, do date Sig hasn't lost a lawsuit and Officer's have been disciplined and even terminated as a result of the investigation.

Now if it can be shown the pistol in question was somehow defective and just fired by itself with no external force placed on the trigger, then we have something to talk about. That clearly wasn't the case in this video.

It's far from critical thinking , this weapon is not suited for duty, it went off without someone pulling the trigger in a duty holster . It is wholly unacceptable for any critical thinker to think that is acceptable .
More than one video exists with the weapon going off in the holster , not During holstering.

You cannot show any dismissed lawsuits or lawsuits where SIg won because they are all still ongoing , and more get filed every day including federal class action suit.
Sig has already settled on the pre 2017 cases, the weapon is being marketed as safe for duty, and its not, someone could have died in this incident and the officer was involved in a benign task not fidgeting or god forbid touching his holstered weapon.

 

[Lt. Donn]

This has happened too many times for it to ALL be user error and/or coincidence. Glocks do not just “go off”. These however, clearly do, how many more of these do we need to see?

That's my thoughts also; just too many instances to blow them all off...there is "something" going on with this platform

 

[Deputydave]

It's far from critical thinking , this weapon is not suited for duty, it went off without someone pulling the trigger in a duty holster

Agree to disagree. Something pulled the trigger. It didn't happen until he leaned over. Had he been chatting at the water cooler just standing still and the gun went off there would be something to talk about. As it is, the video clearly demonstrates that it didn't happen until he leaned over.

Can you verify that this pistol was not altered?

Can you verify that there was nothing in the holster that depressed the trigger?

Did you do any type of investigation beyond watching a video?

Critical thinking is not getting emotional or having a knee-jerk reaction. It's realizing for that something depressed the trigger. The question now becomes, 'what depressed it'. But the pistol itself seems to have operated as designed.

More than one video exists with the weapon going off in the holster , not During holstering.

And they have been discussed as recently as yesterday.

You cannot show any dismissed lawsuits or lawsuits where SIg won because they are all still ongoing

Actually I posted links in the other ongoing P320 thread. As well as links to where Officer's were disciplined and/or terminated for unsafe handling of their firearm.

 

[Mayhem like Me]

Agree to disagree. Something pulled the trigger. It didn't happen until he leaned over. Had he been chatting at the water cooler just standing still and the gun went off there would be something to talk about. As it is, the video clearly demonstrates that it didn't happen until he leaned over.

Can you verify that this pistol was not altered?

Can you verify that there was nothing in the holster that depressed the trigger?

Did you do any type of investigation beyond watching a video?

Critical thinking is not getting emotional or having a knee-jerk reaction. It's realizing for that something depressed the trigger. The question now becomes, 'what depressed it'. But the pistol itself seems to have operated as designed.



And they have been discussed as recently as yesterday.



Actually I posted links in the other ongoing P320 thread. As well as links to where Officer's were disciplined and/or terminated for unsafe handling of their firearm.

Again there was no manipulation of the trigger and I believe that fired officer has an open lawsuit, lets check back in 18 months / to a year when Sig settles some more of these, and as time goes on more will happen.

Many of those witnessed accounts of guns going of were written off because of no video, now clear video evidence shows the gun sitting in a duty holster going off as described by other officers tells me a critical thinker ,that as more officers get more carry time with this weapon more, not less examples will continue to happen.

agree to disagree we will, I would not carry one.

 

[Mayhem like Me]

here is a partial list of only the LEOs not the trained civilians
83. In February 2016, a fully-holstered P320 discharged without a trigger pull inside a Roscommon, Michigan, Police Officer’s vehicle when the officer moved to exit the vehicle during a snowstorm. The incident was captured on the Officer’s body-worn camera.

102. In October 2017, a P320 discharged without a trigger pull in Georgia when an officer fell to the ground in pursuit of a suspect. His weapon was holstered and fired simply when he struck the ground.

109. In May 2018, a Rancho Cucamonga, California, Officer reported that his P320 fired un-commanded merely while he was walking inside his department locker room; the casing of the round did not eject.

111. In October 2018, retired Law Enforcement Officer Stephen Mayes’ P320 fired un-commanded while seated in its holster, causing severe injury to his right leg.

116. In August 2019, Philadelphia Transit Officer Craig Jacklyn’s P320 fired un- commanded while fully-holstered, nearly striking a bystander in the subway concourse. The incident was captured on video, and the officer was returned to duty the next day.

117. The transit authority replaced all Sig Sauer P320s, and later fully exonerated the officer of any alleged wrongdoing in view of the content of the videotape of the incident showing that it fired without a trigger pull.

119. On October 10, 2019, Officer Jacques Desrosiers, also of the Cambridge, Massachusetts, Police Department, was shot by his P320 without him pulling the trigger. The round caused massive and life-changing injuries to Officer Desrosiers. The spent casing of the round did not eject.

121. On November 9, 2019, a P320 fired un-commanded on Officer Matthew Gardette of the Manteca, California, Police Department as he was getting ready for work. As he merely attempted to place and fasten his duty belt around his waist, the P320 discharged inside the holster.

123. On December 2, 2019, a P320 fired un-commanded while in the possession of Detective David Albert, also of the Cambridge, Massachusetts, Police Department, as he was in the process of putting his duty belt on.

125. On February 15, 2020, Pasco County Florida Sheriff’s Deputy David Duff was injured when his P320 discharged without him pulling the trigger while the gun was in its holster on his duty belt.

126. On February 27, 2020, Tampa Police Department Reserve Officer Howard Northrop was severely and permanently injured when his service-issued P320 discharged without a trigger pull, while inside his service-issued holster.

128. On April 15, 2020, Yakima, Washington, Police Officer Nathan Henyan was injured when his P320 discharged from within its holster without him pulling the trigger.

131. On July 14, 2020, Milwaukee Police officer Adam Maritato was injured when his partner’s duty-issued P320 discharged from within its holster while the two were attempting to detain a suspect.

134. On September 21, 2020, a P320 fired un-commanded while in the possession of Deportation Officer Keith Slatowski of Immigration and Customs Enforcement during a training exercise in New Castle, Delaware.

135. Slatowski’s P320 fired while in its holster, and the casing did not eject.

136. Slatowski was severely wounded and has not been able to return to duty since the
accident as of the date of this filing.

137. On November 9, 2020, Tampa Police Officer Jerry Wyche was injured when his holstered P320 discharged without him pulling the trigger as he was getting out of his police vehicle.

138. On December 8, 2020, ICE Agent Catherine Chargualaf was injured when her P320 discharged from within its holster without her pulling the trigger during a training exercise.

139. On January 23, 2021, civilian Timothy Davis was injured when his Sig Sauer P320 X-Carry discharged in its holster without a trigger pull.

142. On June 2, 2021, Troy, New York Police Officer Michael Colwell suffered permanent injuries when his P320 discharged in his holster during a training exercise while his hands were not touching the gun.

146. On November 29, 2021, Atlantic County Prosecutor’s Office Detective James Scoppa suffered severe tinnitus when his holstered P320 discharged without him pulling the trigger while he was inside of his car.

147. On December 5, 2021, ICE Agent Mary Doffeny suffered severe emotional harm when her duty-issued P320 discharged from within a dedicated compartment in her purse.

148. Ms. Doffeny’ s incident was caught on video, which clearly shows the gun going off without her pulling the trigger.

150. On February 7, 2022, Honesdale, Pennsylvania, Police Officer Donald Thatcher’s P320 discharged from its holster while he was exiting his car.

151. Officer Thatcher’s incident was captured on video, which clearly shows that Officer Thatcher’s hands were not touching his holster at the time the P320 discharged.

155. On March 28, 2022, Houston, Texas, Police Sergeant Marvin Reyes’s P320 discharged from its holster while he was entering his car.

156. Sergeant Reyes’ incident was captured on video, which unmistakably shows that Sergeant Reyes’s hands were not near his holster at the time the P320 discharged.

159. On September 10, 2022, a Milwaukee Police Officer’s holstered P320 discharged while the officer was attempting to detain a suspect.

 

[Alex Smith]

Again there was no manipulation of the trigger and I believe that fired officer has an open lawsuit, lets check back in 18 months / to a year when Sig settles some more of these, and as time goes on more will happen.

Many of those witnessed accounts of guns going of were written off because of no video, now clear video evidence shows the gun sitting in a duty holster going off as described by other officers tells me a critical thinker ,that as more officers get more carry time with this weapon more, not less examples will continue to happen.

agree to disagree we will, I would not carry one.

I’ll check back in 18 months to let you know if one of my Glocks has gone off randomly in the holster. (Spoiler: it wont)