and could it be used as an alternative for EDC/self defense? Specifically i am asking about M1152 type ammo. Many thanks in advance for any comments.

Yes, it could be, and it will incapacitate people if put where it needs to go. However, you’re still much better off with modern JHP ammo. JHPs are much less likely to over penetrate and they create more substantial wounds leading to quicker incapacitation.

Flat nose FMJ 9mm may be marginally better than RNFMJ, but the differences would be small enough so as to be be safely ignored. For all intents and purposes one is much the same as the other, and neither is as appropriate as a good modern JHP. As always, shot placement is more important than bullet design.

 

Many thanks for the good information and guidance. My reason for asking was two-fold. First, i wanted to learn more about the flat nose ammo as i don't hear much discussion about it. The second reason was that, from what i have learned here, for training/practice purposes it is best to use the same ammo as one will use in the EDC/self defense. That does make sense. Now the FN FMJ's cost is ~ 50% to 60% that of good JHP. For those of us what are retired and on a fixed budget, that may make a difference. The specs of the M1152 are really quite good for the 115 Gr, at 1320 Ft/s and 445 Ft-Lb. So, i thought i could use the FN FMJs as a temporary replacement for the JHPs.

 

To illustrate flat nose performance, Remington 185 HTP that didn't expand, little disruption, top pic.

Sticking with Remington and 185 gr. this expanded, obvious difference in disruption top pic.

 

This is most informative. I am now wondering why was the FN FMJ ever designed. Was that a requirement for U.S. military? I don't think NATO uses FN FMJs but i could be totally wrong.

 

I try to use the same weight bullet from the same manufacturer in my target rounds to minimize variation in impact area and recoil difference. I saw a guy shooting 115gr and then switch to 147 in a micro9 and the look on his face was a combination of shock and fear.
I carry 124 JHP, but my first round is always FMJ - because I want to make sure penetration is adequate for windshield, carjacking, hostage, armor, scenarios. I can easily eject the first round if needed in a crowded scenario and target bad actor with the second round (JHP). Not everyone is going to agree with this, and I'd like to hear other opinions.

In the olden days, many years before dinosaurs roamed the earth, we practiced with semi-wadcutters, shot flat lead nosed bullets in carry guns and spent a few hours with a sharp knife notching a cross into the tip of the bullets. We did not have gel like today, but used thick telephone books to examine penetration and expansion (crude but all we had at the time). The expansion for notched bullets was about 50% greater than un-notched bullets, and penetration was only slightly less (about 95% of plan nosed). This was effective for those days, but I am cautious that such a practice these days may be viewed as "too" much for a "strictly defensive prep" if there was a trial.

 

I try to use the same weight bullet from the same manufacturer in my target rounds to minimize variation in impact area and recoil difference. I saw a guy shooting 115gr and then switch to 147 in a micro9 and the look on his face was a combination of shock and fear.
I carry 124 JHP, but my first round is always FMJ - because I want to make sure penetration is adequate for windshield, carjacking, hostage, armor, scenarios. I can easily eject the first round if needed in a crowded scenario and target bad actor with the second round (JHP). Not everyone is going to agree with this, and I'd like to hear other opinions.

In the olden days, many years before dinosaurs roamed the earth, we practiced with semi-wadcutters, shot flat lead nosed bullets in carry guns and spent a few hours with a sharp knife notching a cross into the tip of the bullets. We did not have gel like today, but used thick telephone books to examine penetration and expansion (crude but all we had at the time). The expansion for notched bullets was about 50% greater than un-notched bullets, and penetration was only slightly less (about 95% of plan nosed). This was effective for those days, but I am cautious that such a practice these days may be viewed as "too" much for a "strictly defensive prep" if there was a trial.

Hello Sir,
Many thanks for the great information and the most interesting history. My involvement with handguns is somewhat odd. While in the Army (Vietnam vet - 1968, 1969), i had access to three weapons: M16 (primary weapon), 1911, and a Thumper (M79). For some reason, i had little interest in learning much about any of them and treated them as tools for a job. I was able to clean, handle jams, load, and fire them - - and not much more. Got discharged in late 1969. From 1969 all the way to 2018, ~ 47 years, i never had any weapons and had little interest in getting any. Then, the crime situation started to get worse and worse and i thought i better get something for self defense. So, about 5 years ago, i purchased my first handgun - a G19.5. I got some training and my CHL and have been using the G19.5 as my primary EDC. For ammo, i have been using the Sig 124Gr V-Crown JHP. Then recently, i purchased a Hellcat OSP with manual safety (for some reason i was more comfortable with a manual safety - although it is no longer recommended from what i learned). That purchase was made to have a smaller handgun with good round capacity. I now use both interchangeably - depending on clothing type.
Since purchasing these handguns, my interest in learning about handguns in general, ammo types, training, has increased to a point where if i read something on the web and i don't fully understand, i utilize the GT forums and ask questions. I can say that i have thus far got great information and guidance here from experts; for which i am most thankful.
So, many thanks for your kind response. Have a safe day Sir.

 

I could see maybe FMJ flat nose in .380 being ok because you get deeper penetration but not over penetration.

 

For all intents and purposes, you should anticipate fmjfn to penetrate at least as well if not better than fmjrn because it tends to stay nose first in penetration vs tumbling..

 

Thank you for your information. Was wondering the purpose of the FN FMJ design. There must have been some important need for that design. I have not heard much talk about the FN ammo so wanted to learn the purpose and use for such a design. Perhaps it is now irrelevant compared to modern JHPs.
Have a great day Sir.

 

Like many things in life, it depends, sometimes flat nose bullets feed better than pointy bullets...other times it can be a way to seat the bullet further out, resulting in greater powder volume that also keeps the cartridge overall length (fit in the magazine) the same.

 

If by law in my jurisdiction was absolutely forced to not carry JHP's, in 9mm I would lean toward flat nose over round nose FMJ. The M1152 is awesome and in my limited testing with 124 gr NATO and 115 gr FMJ does not penetrate as much.

 

Thanks Sir,
At least one person had something positive to say about the M1152s specifically.
I have no idea if it is legal in Ohio so i have not purchased any yet.

 

In addtion to the above ammunition choices, I like many of the Winchester law enforcement bonded ammunition offerings, like the RA45B, excellent on auto glass.

 

Personally, I carry the Lehigh Xtreme Defender ammo in all of my carry guns. It has a round nose profile for feed reliability, passes all of the FBI protocols, and works very, very well indeed, even after going thru barriers, and penetrates 16 - 18." Most of the time there is little or no damage to the all copper bullets and if recovered, can even be reloaded (so far I have fired 1 bullet 6 times before it exited my test medium thru the top and was lost!). I believe these bullets are simply the best bullets anyone can buy, without exception. There's no magic, no gimmicks involved. They work and I've seen what they do to flesh, something that is just awe inspiring. When these bullets are loaded by Underwood or Lehigh (velocities between the two companies are comparable, the Lehigh's are marginally less expensive, the Underwood come in a nickel case, Lehigh brass cased) they tend to get some amazing velocities, for instance, my Glock 26 gets 1396fps out of the UW 90 gr. XD bullet. As these bullets only require around 800 fps to work, that leaves plenty of energy to dump into a target! Until they come up with something nuclear or something in the way of a disrupter beam sidearm, I will be sticking with the Lehigh bullets!
Cheers,
crkckr

 

Can flat point bullets work in a pinch, yes absolutely. Should they be used routinely, no. Find proper SD ammo.

 

I may be mistaken, but I believe Eli Dickens used FMJ ammo in his Glock 19 to very good effect. Just an observation, as I’d prefer JHP for self defense ammo.