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Help me remember: Mk262 or Mk318

12K views 42 replies 9 participants last post by  MrMurphy  
#1 ·
I remember reading some articles in late 2012 on the Mk262 and Mk318 rounds. And one of them was specifically designed for better barrier penetration, but I can't remember which. I can't seem to find the article again, and I checked Wikipedia and it wasn't any help. I can ascertain from my quick reading that the Mk262 by Blackhills is supposed to be used from a 18" SPR and is optimized out to 700yards and the Mk318 is just an improved M855. Not that this is very important, I just can't remember for the life of me which is which.


Thanks, guys!
 
#2 ·
Mk 318 is the SOST 'barrier blind' round.

Both work well, the 318 works better through vehicles and light cover, and both work better than 855 when they hit people from short barreled rifles (not 20" M16s) as they were designed for shorter barrel use.
 
#3 ·
Mk 318 is the SOST 'barrier blind' round.

Both work well, the 318 works better through vehicles and light cover, and both work better than 855 when they hit people from short barreled rifles (not 20" M16s) as they were designed for shorter barrel use.

Thank you, Murph! So, if you were living in the middle of the woods with no neighbors to speak of and no worried about over penetration, I guess this would be a pretty ideal HD round since it creates larger wound cavities (compared to the normal M855) and consistent fragmentation even out of SBRs, and is "barried blind."

The Mk318 seems to be a pretty fantastic round.
 
#4 ·
Thank you, Murph! So, if you were living in the middle of the woods with no neighbors to speak of and no worried about over penetration, I guess this would be a pretty ideal HD round since it creates larger wound cavities (compared to the normal M855) and consistent fragmentation even out of SBRs, and is "barried blind."

The Mk318 seems to be a pretty fantastic round.
318 is also harder to find. There are plenty of civilian loads out there that also give excellent performance and are barrier blind. Speer Gold Dot, Federal Fusion, and Winchester Ranger Bonded all come to mind.
 
#5 ·
So, if you were living in the middle of the woods with no neighbors to speak of and no worried about over penetration, I guess this would be a pretty ideal HD round since it creates larger wound cavities (compared to the normal M855) and consistent fragmentation even out of SBRs, and is "barried blind."

The Mk318 seems to be a pretty fantastic round.
The SOST is good ammo but there are no magic bullets. Using equivalent shot placement, a bad guy isn’t going to be any deader than one shot with Gold Dot or the Federal and Winchester bonded rounds. If you really want to defeat barriers, get a 30-06.
 
#6 ·
318 is also harder to find. There are plenty of civilian loads out there that also give excellent performance and are barrier blind. Speer Gold Dot, Federal Fusion, and Winchester Ranger Bonded all come to mind.
I'm sure there are plenty of good loads, I was just wondering. At the time I was looking into it, the 318 was relatively easy to find and PSA had them for 9.99/20. Wish I would've stocked up then.

The SOST is good ammo but there are no magic bullets. Using equivalent shot placement, a bad guy isn’t going to be any deader than one shot with Gold Dot or the Federal and Winchester bonded rounds. If you really want to defeat barriers, get a 30-06.
True, but I was thinking more about windows, doors, walls, etc. And as far as 30-06, I don't think a bolt action would be ideal for HD, especially when you have minimal experience with them. Unless it were a M1, I don't think I'd ever do 30-06.
 
#7 ·
What Plank said. 318 is good if you're stuck with military loads. If you have access to JHPs and SPs there's a lot of good rounds.
 
#9 ·
I know that Mk318modO is very difficult to find; however, how does it compare in price to say Federal Fusion which about $20.00 per box around here.
The little testing I have seen done with 318 looked promising. That said, I don't think it's worth hunting down unless you can find it dirt cheap. Federal Fusion is the same bullet design as Speer Gold Dot, which is an excellent all around cartridge in an AR.
 
#13 ·
With the price of mk262 and mk318, I don't think it's worth it. Better ammo available at similar prices. Nothing wrong with xm193 & xm855 for most uses.
For range use? Sure.

For home defense, though, there are not very many loads that would be worse. They both pretty well suck for HD/SD compared to modern OTM, soft-point, and solid copper HP.
 
#14 ·
Murph / Plank -

If you were going to choose a 5.56/.223 load in BULK to keep on hand for HD/SD/SHTF scenario (in other words LOTS of it - not specialty stuff you can not put hands on a lot of at a time) what would you use? Use would more than likely be in a 16" gun.

Funny, I was just reading up on the history of the 5.56/.223 today - I am leaning more and more towards getting an AR again...............

Thanks -
 
#15 ·
Murph / Plank -

If you were going to choose a 5.56/.223 load in BULK to keep on hand for HD/SD/SHTF scenario (in other words LOTS of it - not specialty stuff you can not put hands on a lot of at a time) what would you use? Use would more than likely be in a 16" gun.

Funny, I was just reading up on the history of the 5.56/.223 today - I am leaning more and more towards getting an AR again...............

Thanks -
You're asking the wrong guy, honestly. I'm not big on the whole stocking massive piles of ammo for SHTF, as I don't see any feasible scenarios lasting more than a few days if they could involve defending yourself multiple times. New Orleans post Katrina, or LA during the King riots are situations I can actually see happening, not the zombie apocalypse.

Buy a case or two (200 or 500 round cases, depending on manufacturer) of some good quality soft points, run a few boxes in your weapon to make sure it functions and to zero it, then stop worrying about it.

If you absolutely must have a huge ammo cache for SHTF, get a 20" barrel and either XM855 or 193. I prefer 193, personally, as it has been more accurate and more consistent than XM855 in my experience.
 
#16 ·
If you were going to choose a 5.56/.223 load in BULK to keep on hand for HD/SD/SHTF scenario (in other words LOTS of it - not specialty stuff you can not put hands on a lot of at a time) what would you use?
55 or 62 grain FMJ. Which ever you like better.
 
#17 ·
More or less what Plank said.

Most of the 5.56 55-62 grain softpoints work well, I like Hornady TAP and a few others. If I had 210 rounds or so of that (one full unit of fire, i.e 7 mags), i'd be warm and fuzzy, with the rest in decent/good quality FMJ's. Asym Precision, non-bulk-pack Remington, Winchester, or similar.

If it gets down to where you just put out 200-300 rounds at some bad guys, you're either overrun or in serious trouble, and what you're loading at that point won't matter much. Inside 200m, both M193 and M855 will work reasonably well in a 16", and better in a 20". People generally dislike having holes put in them center mass, and both will do so just fine.

Having 1-2k FMJs and 200-300 softpoints or JHPs is about the best you're gonna get without stocking up for a looooong time. I have less than that now due to the ammo shortage and general lack of funds.
 
#18 ·
More or less what Plank said.

Most of the 5.56 55-62 grain softpoints work well, I like Hornady TAP and a few others. If I had 210 rounds or so of that (one full unit of fire, i.e 7 mags), i'd be warm and fuzzy, with the rest in decent/good quality FMJ's. Asym Precision, non-bulk-pack Remington, Winchester, or similar.

If it gets down to where you just put out 200-300 rounds at some bad guys, you're either overrun or in serious trouble, and what you're loading at that point won't matter much. Inside 200m, both M193 and M855 will work reasonably well in a 16", and better in a 20". People generally dislike having holes put in them center mass, and both will do so just fine.

Having 1-2k FMJs and 200-300 softpoints or JHPs is about the best you're gonna get without stocking up for a looooong time. I have less than that now due to the ammo shortage and general lack of funds.
I go for 1, 4, or 10, depending on what I feel I need. One in the gun, 3 on a belt, and 6 more on a chest rig.
 
#19 ·
I was just searching around for some HD ammo and can't seem to settle on one. Then I realized that I'd rather have my Sig for that. I'm just gonna keep some XM193 in my AR by the door and hope to hell I don't ever need it. But since we're on the subject of HD and such, what do you guys prefer for 9mm loads? I've heard many people swear by the new-ish Ranger T Series but can't seem to find any in stock.
 
#20 ·
I was just searching around for some HD ammo and can't seem to settle on one. Then I realized that I'd rather have my Sig for that. I'm just gonna keep some XM193 in my AR by the door and hope to hell I don't ever need it. But since we're on the subject of HD and such, what do you guys prefer for 9mm loads? I've heard many people swear by the new-ish Ranger T Series but can't seem to find any in stock.
Here's a very good video to educate yourself so you can make an informed decision. This dude makes lots of great ammo videos...

[ame]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QuLoUzplbYQ[/ame]
 
#21 · (Edited)
................................Buy a case or two (200 or 500 round cases, depending on manufacturer) of some good quality soft points, run a few boxes in your weapon to make sure it functions and to zero it, then stop worrying about it.

If you absolutely must have a huge ammo cache for SHTF, get a 20" barrel and either XM855 or 193. I prefer 193, personally, as it has been more accurate and more consistent than XM855 in my experience.
More or less what Plank said.

Most of the 5.56 55-62 grain softpoints work well, I like Hornady TAP and a few others. If I had 210 rounds or so of that (one full unit of fire, i.e 7 mags), i'd be warm and fuzzy, with the rest in decent/good quality FMJ's. Asym Precision, non-bulk-pack Remington, Winchester, or similar.

If it gets down to where you just put out 200-300 rounds at some bad guys, you're either overrun or in serious trouble, and what you're loading at that point won't matter much. Inside 200m, both M193 and M855 will work reasonably well in a 16", and better in a 20". People generally dislike having holes put in them center mass, and both will do so just fine.

Having 1-2k FMJs and 200-300 softpoints or JHPs is about the best you're gonna get without stocking up for a looooong time. I have less than that now due to the ammo shortage and general lack of funds.

Thanks guys, and if I were looking at soft points, what bullet weight would you suggest?

The Katrina example you gave is the perfect scenario I was referring to, as I live in So. Fla. and hurricanes are a reality we have to live with. I already lived through Andrew in '92 and then the multiple storms we went through in '05 or so, for a week or so with no utilities. Sitting in your driveway in a lawn chair with a long gun and the roof blown off your house and trying to protect what you have left is a plausible situation for us. :(

Anywho, as I said I was doing some reading on the history of the 5.56 yesterday and from what I can tell in mass produced BULK ammo (say if you wanted 1k rounds or so) it looks like the best option would be M855A1 (if it's even possible to put hands on a case of it period?) and then maybe M193 (and I don't even know if M193 is a reality anymore - anyone?).

From what I read, it looks like the 5.56 went from M193, to SS109/M855 (which I am sure is still not THE worst answer in the world if it came to it?), to then the M855A1, and then on to MK 262 and MK 318 - the latter of the two which I am sure are either not cheap, available, or really a viable solution?

I thought I remembered their being a ball, bulk military round also other than the SS109/M855 that was a better for this kind of thing everyone was carrying on about years ago to? Or is that M193?


My biggest thing looking back to the AR platform is considering the fact that more people are likely to have mags and ammo for them, and at this point they are just about as common and just about as easy to accessorize as a small block Chevy. I think I'd still prefer my AK, but I KNOW the likelihood of coming across ANY kind of 5.56/.223 (and AR mags at this point) is better than 7.62x39, or even .308 for either and M1A or a good bolt gun at this point in time (and I KNOW a bolt gun is NO "assault rifle" either :( )?

Don't forget I'm also running two Mini-14 tacticals at this point, and I am starting to see some of their disadvantages over the AR and weigh them against my previous aversions to them.

Thanks -
 
#22 ·
Oh and OP, see if this helps you initial question -

"Advances have been made in 5.56 mm ammunition. The U.S. Military had adopted for limited issue a 77-grain (5.0 g) "Match" bullet, type classified as the Mk 262. The heavy, lightly constructed bullet fragments more violently at short range and also has a longer fragmentation range.[33] Originally designed for use in the Mk 12 SPR, the ammunition has found favor with special forces[34] units who were seeking a more effective cartridge to fire from their M4A1 carbines. Commercially available loadings using these heavier (and longer) bullets can be prohibitively expensive and cost much more than military surplus ammunition. Additionally, these heavy-for-caliber loadings sacrifice even more penetrative ability than the M855 round (which has a steel penetrator tip). Performance of 5.56×45 mm military ammunition can generally be categorized as almost entirely dependent upon velocity in order to wound effectively. Heavy OTM bullets enhance soft tissue wounding ability at the expense of hard-target/barrier penetration.

U.S. Special Forces had sought to create a round that had increased power out of carbine M4 barrels and compact SCAR-L barrels, while increasing hard target performance. Developmental efforts led to the creation of the Mk318. The bullet uses an open-tip design to inflict damage on soft tissue, and has a brass rear to penetrate hard targets. The tip and lead core fragments consistently even out of short barrels, while the rear moves through once the front impacts.[35] It has more consistent performance because it is not yaw-dependent like the M855; the nose fragments upon impact and solid rear penetrator continues to move relatively straight. This makes the Mk318 effective against personnel with or without body armor. The round also increases accuracy, from 3-5 minute of angle with the M855 from an M4A1 barrel to 1.71 MOA at 300 yards and 1.67 MOA at 600 yards from a 14 in (360 mm) SCAR-L barrel.[36]"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56×45mm_NATO#Mk_262


HTH -
 
#23 ·
The M193 is still in wide use around the world. Pretty much half the 5.56 users (non NATO) still use it or the equivalent. It performs just fine, it killed a hell of a lot of people up through the 1980s in US service. It doesn't punch through body armor quite as well but these days against rifle rated plates, neither does M855 (which was designed to...)

For defensive ammo, i usually think "loaded" (in the rifle) then 4-7, depending on what rig I have, I prefer six full mags simply because it's what I'm used to, but I also have a three-mag rig.

As far as softpoints/JHPs in 5.56mm:
Reprinted from Doctor Gary Roberts regarding duty loads for law enforcement.

Only after proper foundational and ongoing repetitive refresher training, cultivating warrior mind-set, and ensuring weapon system reliability do you need to worry about ammunition selection. Most folks would be far better off practicing with what they have, rather than worrying about what is "best". As long as you know your what your weapon and ammo can realistically accomplish, it is all just a matter of training and shot placement. I would much rather go into battle with a guy who practices 15,000 rounds a year using generic 55 gr FMJ out of his old M16A1 than with some guy that has the latest state-of-the-art ammo and rifle, but only shoots 500 rounds a year. If you need to delve into the arcane subject of agency duty ammunition selection, below are the state of the art choices in 5.56 mm/.223:

------------------------------

For LE Patrol use, where there is a high incidence of potential engagements around or involving vehicles, ammunition that is able to effectively penetrate intermediate barriers, particularly vehicle glass is critical. The best LE 5.56 mm/.223 loads for intermediate barrier penetration using 1/9 and faster twist barrels are the 5.56 mm Federal 62 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC) bonded JSP (XM556FBIT3) and 5.56 mm Winchester 64 gr solid base bonded JSP (Q3313/RA556B) developed for the FBI, along with the outstanding new Black Hills 5.56 mm 50 gr TSX loading. The Hornady 5.56 mm 55 gr GMX is another acceptable option. Note that these are all true 5.56 mm loads that require a real milspec 5.56 mm chamber, not a SAAMI .223 chamber--be sure to check with an appropriate gauge or reamer. Most other acceptable LE barrier blind loadings are at .223 pressures, including the .223 55 & 62 gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical loads (LE223T1 & LE223T3), along with loads using Nosler 60 gr Partition JSP, Remington 62 gr Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded JSP (PRC223R4), .223 Federal 55 gr TSX (T223S), .223 Horn 55 gr GMX, and the .223 Speer 64 gr Gold Dot JSP's (and identically constructed Federal 62 gr Fusion JSP and Federal XM223SP1 62gr Bonded JSP). The Swift 75 gr Scirocco bonded PT is also good choice, but usually requires a 1/7 twist. Note that the Barnes all copper TSX bullets are great projectiles and offer good penetration through barriers, however, when first hitting a laminated automobile windshield intermediate barrier, most TSX bullets exhibit less expansion than bonded JSP’s, as the Barnes jacket either collapses at the nose, the jacket "petals" fold back against the core, or the "petals" are torn off; this results in a caliber size projectile configured a lot like a full wadcutter, leading to deep penetration. If running 1/12 twist barrels, stick with the BH 50 gr TSX, Fed 55 gr TBBC, Fed 55 gr TSX, Horn 55 gr GMX, or Speer 55 gr Gold Dot. NONE of the fragmenting 5.56 mm OTM bullets, even the heavy 75 - 100 gr loads, offer acceptable performance through automobile windshield glass. Contrary to what many believe, M193 & M855 FMJ are not very good against glass; the best military 5.56 mm load against glass is 52 gr M995 AP, followed by the 62 gr Mk318 Mod0 OTM and 70 gr Optimal "brown tip" OTM.

In those situations where intermediate barrier penetration is not a critical requirement, for example LE urban entries or long range shots in open conditions, then OTM, JHP, and standard JSP loads can offer acceptable performance. For 1/7 twist barrels, the Hornady 75 gr OTM, Nosler 77 gr OTM, and Sierra 77 gr SMK OTM are all good choices. The experimental BH loaded 100 gr OTM exhibits impressive fragmentation, even at relatively low velocities, however while capable of shooting out to 600, it is optimized for 200 and under. If stuck with 1/9 twist barrels, the heavy 70+ gr loads are not universally accurate in all rifles and the 69 gr SMK OTM, the 68 gr Hornady OTM, the Winchester 64 gr JSP (RA223R2), the Federal 64 gr TRU (T223L) JSP, Hornady 60 gr JSP, are likely to run accurately in the majority of 1/9 twist rifles. Again it is critical to keep in mind that the above loads fail to offer adequate penetration through intermediate barriers.

For longer range engagements using precision weapons like the Mk12 SPR or DMR rifles with faster 1/8 or 1/7 twist barrels, one of the combat proven 5.56 mm (ie. 5.56 mm NATO pressure loads, not .223 SAAMI pressure loads which run about 200 f/s slower) heavy OTM loadings are a good choice: the Barnes 70 gr TSX (Optimized "browntip"), Hornady 75 gr TAP (#8126N), Nosler 77 gr, or the Sierra 77 gr Match King (Mk262 Mod1).

Short barreled 5.56 mm weapons, such as the Colt Commando, Mk18 CQBR, HK416, HK53, HK G36C, etc… offer advantages in confined spaces. With SBR’s it is best to stick with the barrier blind loads recommended above, although the heavy OTM's suggested for long distance shooting will also work. SBR's can run into rotational velocity issues with some loads, so it is generally best to select faster 1/7 twist barrels whenever possible. Remember, with SBR’s, effective engagement distances are significantly reduced compared to the longer barreled carbines.

Keep in mind, that with non-fragmenting bullet designs, heavier bullet weights are not necessarily better, especially at closer ranges and from shorter barrels. As long as penetration and upset remain adequate, it is possible to use lighter weight non-fragmenting bullets and still have outstanding terminal performance. With fragmenting designs, a heavier bullet is ideal, as it provides more potential fragments and still allows the central core to have enough mass for adequate penetration. In addition, heavier bullets may have an advantage at longer ranges due to better BC and less wind drift.

Whatever projectile is used, it is best with a cannelure to prevent bullet set-back in semi-auto/auto weapons. Also, be cautious with the exposed lead on some JSP designs. Often they will run great for up to 200-300 rounds, but then mysterious feeding failures will begin as a result of lead build-up on the feed ramps. I have personally seen this occur with a variety of JSP's including 55 gr, 60 gr, and 64 gr in LE training courses. As soon as FMJ or OTM was substituted, all the feeding failures ceased.

Be sure to watch your ammo storage conditions. Temperatures above 150 deg F will degrade the powder and cause pressure spikes. Hint: Think locked metal conex containers in the mid-east, car trunks in the southern U.S., and storage areas near heaters in the northern U.S. Also be cautions of leaving a round in a very hot chamber; besides the obvious danger of a cook-off, the powder can also be damaged by the heat, leading to dramatically increased pressures when the round is eventually fired.

A large SWAT team in this area had a failure to fire from an M4 with Hornady TAP ammo during an entry--fortunately no officers were hurt and the suspect immediately threw down his weapon when the carbine went click instead of bang. After the incident was concluded, the team went to the range and expended the rest of their carbine ammo and had one additional failure to fire. This same team had 3 Hornady TAP rounds fail to fire in training a couple of years ago. When Pat Rogers was teaching a class at a nearby agency, there were 5 failures to fire using Hornady TAP ammo. In all 10 cases, there appeared to be good primer strikes, but no rounds fired. On analysis, the ammunition had powder and checked out otherwise.



However, despite what appeared to be good primer strikes, two problems were discovered. First, when accurately measured, some of the primer strikes had insufficient firing pin indentations. The failed round from the potential OIS incident had a primer strike of only .013"—the minimum firing pin indent for ignition is .017". In addition, the primers on the other rounds were discovered to have been damaged from repeated chambering. When the same cartridge is repeatedly chambered in the AR15, the floating firing pin lightly taps the primer; with repeated taps, the primer compound gets crushed, resulting in inadequate ignition characteristics--despite what appears to be a normal firing pin impression. Once a round has been chambered, DO NOT RE-CHAMBER IT for duty use. Do NOT re-chamber it again, except for training. This is CRITICAL!!!

------------------------------

Many LE agencies around here use the Hornady 75 gr TAP OTM, Winchester 64 gr JSP (it has been on the state contract for very low cost), and similar Fed 64 gr JSP TRU load (223L)--all have worked well in actual officer involved shootings against unobstructed targets. However in the wake of the serious terminal performance failures by non-bonded .223 64 gr JSP's due to inadequate penetration into the criminal's Toyota Tundra truck in the July 2010 CHP OIS incident in Oakland, quite a few agencies here have been switching to general issue of Barrier Blind loads like the 55 & 64 gr Gold Dot loads, along with the 55 & 62 gr TBBC loads that previously saw more limited use.

Do short barrel 5.56 mm carbines have some limitations? Yes, especially beyond 100 yards, but BFD…learn what they are, train, and drive on. Despite the ballistic compromise, for LE urban work with lots of entries, the 10.5-12.5” BCM, Colt, Centurian, LaRue, LMT Mk18/Commando style weapons w/Aimpoint RDS's are the best weapon types for this mission. For GP LE Patrol use, properly built AR15's like the 14.5-16” BCM, Colt, LMT, LaRue, Centurian carbines with Aimpoint RDS's and 3x magnifiers in quick detach flip mounts like the LaRue LT649 are superb choices (quality variable optics like a S&B 1.1-4x Short Dot, NF 1.1-4x, or Trijicon 1-4x are also good options) -- pick the right tool for the job.


And in 9mm: 147 grain Federal HST has gained a significant following in LE use, it has performed extremely well in actual shootings. 124 grain +P has also done well, I use both loads in my 9's. (124's in the larger 9s, 147s in the smaller ones, they shoot them better after testing both.
 
#24 ·
Also regarding the Mini's.....

Considering their known track record in LE use. I'd run one if it was at hand immediately in a fight, but I'd never voluntarily pick one unless the choices were worse.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Also regarding the Mini's.....

Considering their known track record in LE use. I'd run one if it was at hand immediately in a fight, but I'd never voluntarily pick one unless the choices were worse.
They were :( -

It was down to what the old lady could handle if alone -

- an AK which I was worried as "too much" inside the house/urban environment (don't want rounds leaving the house :( )

- and 870 (which she could NOT handle or reload quickly - at least with the Mini she's got 20 rounds and God forbid she DID need more ammo it's a easily changed mag away)


Beyond that I am still not sold on going back to a gas impinged AR, piston ones are not universal (as impinged was are closer to being, but not totally) and a SCAR is still out of my price range. :(

I also have serious reservations about her being able to clear a jammed AR, even with a LOT of training. Hell, I'm not even so sure how well I'd fare at it under stress? :(


At the time the Minis were the least of all evils, but I'm starting to reconsider as time goes on...............
 
#26 ·
I'm starting to think a 20" AR with a collapsible stock and kept CLEAN might be the ticket, and keep the two AKs in case things had to get down and dirty outside?


That or maybe I should just get a Colt 6920, keep it wet and stop worrying about it so much? Hell, she's got a 4" 686 for back up and Lord KNOWS I have enough Glocks to keep me out of trouble? LOL :)