No law letter? No demo letter?

What does that even mean?

 

As per ATF § 479.105 (f), a MANUFACTURER or IMPORTER FFL with a valid and corresponding SOT may take possession of the machine gun without the need for a law enforcement demonstration letter. NFA Type 03 Dealers require a demonstration letter.

 

Is that SOT something a normal citezen can get?

 

Unfortunately a citizen can’t own it, only a LE department or a FFL with a SOT

 

Get your SOT. Buy fun toys an open a range. Rent your SOT toys, Vegas baby.

 

Whats SOT?

 

It stands for SPECIAL OCCUPATIONAL TAXPAYER....

Basically, a SOT is a licensed dealer and manufacturer of NFA regulated firearms, as a business.

 

This I just don't get.

I could see a Pre-86 DS bringing moon money. A post sample??? I know an SOT right near me that has at least two. These are currently produced $550ish guns. No idea why a post sample brings this.

 

That's because this one does not require a demo letter. Usually if an SOT/FFL wants to purchase a post 1986 MG, they need to provide a letter from a law enforcement agency stating that they are seeking a particular firearm for demonstration,

 

Supply vs demand. Unfortunately Glock won’t sell these to dealers with the proper FFL/SOT/law letter, most of the 18s have come out of departments then get bought by dealers.

 

Overpriced.

 

My SOT sold a post 18C no law letter pistol on Gunbroker in 2017. The final price was just short of $9k. An 18 by the same SOT sold for $5,525 at the same time.

 

Crazy.
I've known at least 2 SOTs around here w them who had little trouble getting them w a law letter. Were not too expensive. That said, since I gave up my SOT I've not followed post samples.

 

I’m in the process of getting my Type 07 manufacture license and SOT....

Part of the issue for the “law letter” vs “no law letter” is ATF is cracking down on people buying up stuff to have a large machine gun collection of dealer samples. Someone in Podunk USA gets the local chief to sign off saying they want a “demo” of something so the dealer can get it. Sounds good on paper if it’s an M16, MP5, or UMP......but when it’s an M60, M240, or an M134 mini gun.....well the ATF is now going WTF?! ATF was (not sure if they still are) requiring a proof of intent to purchase for demos now thanks to this common practice. So when a Post Sample Gun states letter or no letter that does play on the price. Basically makes the gun more of a premium for those who can’t get demo letters...

Another reason that real G18’s are going for stupid money on the dealer market is that they aren’t out there anymore. Glock is direct with them, same as HK for new MP5’s and so on. So whatever is out there in the LEO/SOT world as far as G18’s....that’s it and there ain’t no more.

 

I gave up my SOT in 2002. So, I've not paid much attn to pre samples. Back then there was no shortage of post 18s. I knew numerous SOTs with them. Must have been easier then. Don't know.

I think that some depts get convinced to purchase them as toys. Some of these guns end up with SOTs as post samples.

I honestly don't understand paying big $ for any post being that it has to go when your SOT goes.

I've heard rumors of a few Pre sample G1 18s. When I was an SOT I was not aware of these. Had I been I would have searched absolutely everywhere for one. I'm a huge fan of factory original (not conversion) guns. Thus, some of my pre sample guns (MP5s, USSS Package UZI, etc) are my very favorites in my collection.

There are tons of MP5 post samples but they're a far more popular gun of course.

One thing I was thinking about was the spare parts issue for an 18. I doubt that Glock would service a post sample but don't know that for sure.

I've been to the G18 Operator School and have fired my SOT friend's guns many times. Love them. They are such an incredible testament to the quality of Glocks. The ones at the school have been fired hundreds of thousands of times. Yet, they bang our 33 rd burst after burst no prob. Incredible guns.

One thing that I'd think would keep the price down - though it obviously does not - is that they are difficult guns to shoot well and control for folks who are not well trained in shooting select fire weapons. Glock used to bring one every year to TAC OPS East before that event was stopped (sucks, was awesome). The G18 demo never lasted long as person after person (all sworn LE or MIL) put rounds in the ceiling after just the first few rounds on full auto mode.

One of my buddies in Europe just purchased a new 18 and 18C no prob. W/VAT etc they're not much over a grand in USD. If only.

Funny that you mention belt feds. I was an Adjunct Instructor at HK ITD later HK D in the early 2000s. I took the MP5 Operator and Instructor Schools with some guys from the Johnson Space Center. They had HK21s in their helos. Some depts do have them!

I posted a thread a while back with many detail pics from the G18 school with the unique parts, manual, etc.

Some have seen this video before but, just to show how much fun these are and how reliable here is a video of me at the G18 Operator School doing a full mag dump....

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxQLywdG4m4&feature=youtu.be

 

HGP: June/July ish 2005 production date.

 

Sold for $11,225

 

The G18 I have my time behind is a standard one, not a G18C. I’d love to get them side by side to compare.

Now that’s something I’d like to see is LEO’s still rocking HK21’s!!! It’s funny I’ve been talking with many local LEO’s and they are looking at going back to MP5’s for their entry teams instead of M4’s it MK18’s. Seems like the SMG is getting a rebirth in the world.

 

The G18 I have my time behind is a standard one, not a G18C. I’d love to get them side by side to compare.

Now that’s something I’d like to see is LEO’s still rocking HK21’s!!! It’s funny I’ve been talking with many local LEO’s and they are looking at going back to MP5’s for their entry teams instead of M4’s it MK18’s. Seems like the SMG is getting a rebirth in the world.

That was the only civilian team that I knew of with 21s but there were likely others with 21s or 23s.

Personally, I think that the MP5 is easily the finest SMG in the world and easily one of the best small arms ever produced bar none. I've been to the armorers school at least 3 times. Every time I really think about how over-engineered the thing is, how many small parts, the tricks to dong a detail strip and putting it back together I am amazed that the damn things work at all. But work they do. I've fired countless different SMGs. None to me overall are near the MP5 in terms of accuracy, handling, ergonomics, etc. The only think thing I'd change would be to have bolt hold open on the 9s like on the others.

Indeed many teams around here still have their MP5s. There was a time when a lot of them had UMPs. They went back to MP5s. The 416 is very popular around here as are some other PDW type variants (LWRC PSD, etc). The 5.56 and 9mm of course are not comparable rounds but the MP5 has made a comeback. I thought that HK was trying to phase out the MP5 for the cheaper UMPs. If so, the market spoke loud and clear. SO OT but I love the subject.... Happy to discuss on the appropriate forum. Don't want to hijack the thread and this is way OT...

My happy MP5 family (all 100% factory original pre-86 DS. The K is SUPER rare. The SD was a Dept of Energy gun.)

 

Overpriced.

There is no such thing as overpriced in a true auction with a penny starting bid. By definition the market determines the price - or at least two people who really want it. Something is worth, by definition, what you can get for it.

 

But there are dynamics to an auction that can artificially inflate a price well beyond what the item should have brought. I was recently trying to win a Shadow2 OR on Gunbroker, I finally gave up and just ordered the gun from a dealer for $200 less than the auctions were averaging.

There is a local guy who wants me to buy a gun similar to one I recently bid on in auction. He is really upset because my offer is a little less than what I had bid in the auction. He doesn’t want to believe that I honestly felt the guy I was competing with would go higher so I ran him up as far as I felt comfortable. I was willing to honor my bid if I had miscalculated but it was not representative of what I was really willing to pay. That’s just part of the auction game.

So that auction shouldn’t really be what sets expectations. If he wants to gamble that similar dynamics will happen and pull more than I’m offering he should auction the gun. But there could be a lot of risk involved.

We see that all the time with one gun going for $4k and a similar for <$3k. I still think suctions are the best option, but you have to be prepare for the possible negative side as well as positive.

 

Great points mt.

My only point was that in a penny start auction that current prices as decided by the bidders is what that item is worth at that time in that sale.

Realized prices for virtually identical items certainly do vary greatly even in very short time periods due to a myriad of reasons. Over time, at least for items that sell w/any frequency one can get idea of the expected value of a given item. For more rare items which trade infrequently the value is much harder to predict. We've all been surprised - both ways - on such items. This of course applies to many types of collectibles.

 

I thought I would post some photos from the auction because we don't see them often especially in the original Box with the label.